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Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 10:24:00 -
[1]
I see that the devs are planning to introduce jump drives in the next big content update when they bring out dreadnoughts. This concerns me for a number of reasons. I worry that allowing people to jump without using the gates would essentially destroy the fabric of the game.
In many other games this has happened. The introduction of wide ranging teleportation has shrunk worlds, blown markets to nothingness and rendered strategic PvP useless.
In Eve, trade, pvp and many other things are based on the fact that it takes some amount of time to get somewhere. If a ship is able to just jump to any system in the galaxy, as some forum users have reuqested, this will be destroyed. Fleets will be able to respond to incursions anywherei nthe galaxy in seconds, trade will be reduced to who has the jump drives to move goods back and forth in an instant. Hyper deflation will set in and so on. This could easily kill the game.
Imagine the pvp situation. The pain about having a POS in deep space is being there to defend it on a regular basis and also whoring missions in empire at the same time. With jump drives the player can do both. Scary.
I implore the devs to consider this and to ally these fears with some more information on how jump drives can work. TBH I would rather not even have them at all but rather have player constructable stargates to reach jove and other areas. That would be much cooler anyway.
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
Lesta Mano
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Posted - 2005.05.30 10:31:00 -
[2]
Don't be.. from what I gather using a jump drive is going to be a huge ISK sink. CCP stated it will come into the heavily pre-nerfed (and the skill requierments to use one are nothing to sneeze at). So it will probably make the EVE universe smaller, but the cost will insure it is used sparingly. And there is a very limited form of 'jump drive' in the game already: clone jumping..
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2005.05.30 10:36:00 -
[3]
Not really worth worrying about until we know more about its capabilities.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 10:42:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Derisor on 30/05/2005 10:47:09
Edited by: Derisor on 30/05/2005 10:43:14
 Originally by: Lesta Mano
Don't be.. from what I gather using a jump drive is going to be a huge ISK sink. CCP stated it will come into the heavily pre-nerfed (and the skill requierments to use one are nothing to sneeze at). So it will probably make the EVE universe smaller, but the cost will insure it is used sparingly. And there is a very limited form of 'jump drive' in the game already: clone jumping..
Cost in a MMOG is an illusory control mechanism. The other games I am referring to also thought it out as you did. It destroyed them. Literally destroyed the games, the entire fabric ripped.
Just think of the impact on fleet ops if you know that at any time a dreadnought can jump in on you with no warning and from half the galaxy away. It would do horrid things to pvp. You basically couldnt pvp at all unless you had a super fleet capable of killing a DN because all they need is one, leap in the system and obliterate you.
Think of the impact on trade. One corp with a single dreadnought could blow the market to hell. They could load it and make billions in a single day instajumping to other systems.
No game is perfect, and eve is no exception, but its pretty good now. Best out there for those that like a challenging game. But jump drives could kill it.
Dont do it CCP .. I beg you. Dont give into the carebears and whiners that want instatravel. They are wrong .. they dont know what they are doing. Ignore them.
Let us build player owned stargates instead. And even limit those to routes "reachable" within a boundary. That should be more than sufficient to explore jove space.
Originally by: Joshua Calvert
Not really worth worrying about until we know more about its capabilities.
I worry until I know the capabilities. If I know them and get info that allays my fears then I wont worry anymore. I will not be content to wait and see what impact they have on the game. I have played over 20 mmogs and I have seen them blown to dust by teleportation.
I like Eve too much to want that to happen here.
EDIT -- Even if the jump drives can jump only one system that can destroy the fabric of the game. PvP is based on being able to find the enemy and space is very big. If you blocade a gate but they can just poof and jump into the system avoiding the blocade then you have no control over space anymore.
ALL JUMPING SHOULD HAPPEN AT STARGATES.
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
Lesta Mano
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Posted - 2005.05.30 10:47:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Derisor
Cost in a MMOG is an illusory control mechanism. The other games I am referring to also thought it out as you did. It destroyed them. Literally destroyed the games, the entire fabric ripped.
Lol, fine.. 100 mil per jump.. per ship with a jumpdrive.. good luck making bilions on the market and having huge fleets taking down alliances in surprise attacks. You still fell cost is an illusory control mechanism?
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Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 10:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lesta Mano
Originally by: Derisor
Cost in a MMOG is an illusory control mechanism. The other games I am referring to also thought it out as you did. It destroyed them. Literally destroyed the games, the entire fabric ripped.
Lol, fine.. 100 mil per jump.. per ship with a jumpdrive.. good luck making bilions on the market and having huge fleets taking down alliances in surprise attacks. You still fell cost is an illusory control mechanism?
Yes. Because I know players with 50 times that much. And if they load up a 50km3 cargo at one jump and jump to another they can make 10 times the cost of the jump. Also, whats 100m to kill 25 battleships ? Chump change.
One thing game after game after game after game has taught us is that money in a MMOG is water. People can and do get RICH as hell.
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2005.05.30 10:56:00 -
[7]
My hunch is that Dreads, like Battleships, will be victims waiting to happen if used carelessly, but like a battleships, capable of decisive firepower.
And CCP has long shown that they will make vigorous use of the nerf bat if needed. If the Jump drive gets to ugly, it will be nerfed, of that I am sure.
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H0ot
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:00:00 -
[8]
I agree with Derisor, if jump drives aren't worked out properly they can become the biggest game-killer since L4 missions, aka Jita's on-demand Battleship Spawn. 
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
mahhy
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:02:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Derisor
*snip*
At the very least the devs have discussed things like:
1.) limited the number of systems you can "bypass" by using jump drives
2.) needing fuel to use 'em
3.) needing to anchor a "target" in the system you wish to jump to.
I think, from previous comments from CCP that they are well and truely aware of what a jump drive *could* do to this game.
I also suggest you read back through dev blogs, dev chats and such, before posting stuff like this that has been addressed, in the sense that CCP has shown they are aware of potential problems.
My personal bet is that the first incarnation of jumpdrives will be "stargates for big ships". I.e. those ships that cant apparently fit thru gate will have a jumpdrive, but the ONLY place it will take them is the same destinations as the systems stargates. Heavily pre-nerfed jumpdrives 4tw.
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Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:03:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
My hunch is that Dreads, like Battleships, will be victims waiting to happen if used carelessly, but like a battleships, capable of decisive firepower.
And CCP has long shown that they will make vigorous use of the nerf bat if needed. If the Jump drive gets to ugly, it will be nerfed, of that I am sure.
They wont have a chance. It could kill the game quite quikly. The first 5 or six dreads with a jump drive will destroy the economy. Unless they are willing to do a 3 week rollback (which wouldnt be popular to say the least) they would be screwed.
Better to simply rethink it. Let us build our own stargates in 0.0. That would be much more fun. Something that others could take over or destroy and so on.
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
Sentani
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:06:00 -
[11]
have you guys even thaugth about the cooldown time on the jumpdrives ?
and you should only be able to go 1 jump at the time...
so a frigate or even BS will be faster
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Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:07:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Derisor on 30/05/2005 11:11:02
Edited by: Derisor on 30/05/2005 11:07:16
Originally by: mahhy
I also suggest you read back through dev blogs, dev chats and such, before posting stuff like this that has been addressed, in the sense that CCP has shown they are aware of potential problems.
I have read them. I am seriously concerned that they arent scared enough. They could destroy the game. I cant say that forcefully enough.
Originally by: mahhy
My personal bet is that the first incarnation of jumpdrives will be "stargates for big ships". I.e. those ships that cant apparently fit thru gate will have a jumpdrive, but the ONLY place it will take them is the same destinations as the systems stargates. Heavily pre-nerfed jumpdrives 4tw.
And what do you think that would do to system blocades? Think about it man. You are experienced pvper I believe. These ships would be used to pass up blocades. There would be a string of anchored targets in space that people would use to jump to; allowing them to totally rampage any system they want. No more control of who gets in or out. Intel would be useless as they can safe spot jump to safe spot jump. Then all you need is one bookmark to a gate overlook sniping spot further out than even BSes can hit and you have a massively unbalancing force in the game.
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
mahhy
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:15:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Derisor
And what do you think that would do to system blocades? Think about it man. You are experienced pvper I believe. These ships would be used to pass up blocades. There would be a string of anchored targets in space that people would use to jump to; allowing them to totally rampage any system they want. No more control of who gets in or out. Intel would be useless as they can safe spot jump to safe spot jump.
I'm not a fan of blokades anyhow, since I don't believe they work. Personally I think trying to blockade a system in Eve is useless. There currently is no such thing as control of a system. You're welcome to try it of course, but its just not really *enfoceable*.
That aside, as I understood it, the "targets" used to jump to wouldn't be some easy to deploy, drop it anywhere type object. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought they'd end up being things that took quite awhile to anchor. If so, and as long as scan probes can find them, and their anchoring time is significant it should be no problem (ignore the fact scan probes aint perfect).
I also have faith that CCP wouldn't make the "targets" multiple use, nor would they be exceptionally hard to destroy like a GSC. Once used by a single ship for a single jump they'd be "destroyed", and if you did find them with scan probes (assuming you put the effort in) desctruction would be fairly simple.
In general though, I actually agree with you that I don't want to see jump drives letting a ship jump from Tenal, down into Period Basis, no matter the cost, or the use of "targets", or the skills involved, or whatever else CCP comes up with. Limited distances okay. Across the map: NO.
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Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:20:00 -
[14]
Originally by: mahhy
I'm not a fan of blokades anyhow, since I don't believe they work. Personally I think trying to blockade a system in Eve is useless. There currently is no such thing as control of a system. You're welcome to try it of course, but its just not really *enfoceable*.
Dont want to get too far OT but I have seen them work. Poeple with 45km bubbles and tackler fleets can be brutal. BSes that jump in are just toast. They cant align fast enough to rejump. Some frigs can run the blockade if they are set up for it but they are rare.
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:47:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Derisor
And what do you think that would do to system blocades? Think about it man. You are experienced pvper I believe. These ships would be used to pass up blocades.
Blockades are never strong enough or long enough to keep people out. No matter how much the big 0.0 alliances like to think otherwise. And the beacon system CCP were talking about (with the beacon apparently being able to be scanned for) should limit BFS to siege weapons.
Originally by: Derisor
There would be a string of anchored targets in space that people would use to jump to; allowing them to totally rampage any system they want. No more control of who gets in or out. Intel would be useless as they can safe spot jump to safe spot jump. Then all you need is one bookmark to a gate overlook sniping spot further out than even BSes can hit and you have a massively unbalancing force in the game.
1) They are meant to be a massively unbalancing force. Thats the point. New tactics will be needed.
2) CCP now days nerf the absolute crap out of anything new (eg scan probes, stealth bombers). Frankly I expect Dreadnaughts to be fairly crap on release.
3) Who says they can outrange BS? If they can then they will be used as the ultimate sniper. But they could still be powerful with only BS range or less.
These *are* going to be released. Most people want them to be rare. CCP have stated they want them to be rare. And CCP want to make them *time* and Isk intensive. Yes rich players will be able to afford to go pick up their washing with them. But they will have to play a bunch of other people to get fuel, and place the beacons. And AFAIK the drive will not be instantaneous, it will have to charge up. Even 5-10 minutes once the beacon is set, are going to make them to slow for anything but siege usage.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:52:00 -
[16]
So you're frightened of somethign we don't know the details of? Run rabbit, run.
Trade is, bluntly, not one of the worries I'd have given jumping WON'T be free (one of the few things we DO know). And trade IS ISK-limited. As for being able to breach the enemy lines, yep, that's one of the things I'd hope DN's can DO.
Jump Drives are part of the NECESSARY DYNAMIC which must form if anything is to be done about insta-jumps in the long run, as well.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
KIAInkZ
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:57:00 -
[17]
I might be able to use theat jump drive skill I've had for the last 2 years :)
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Forums/Killboard - http://www.kia-corp.co.uk |
TekRa
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:08:00 -
[18]
The sky is falling!
> With the lights out it's less dangerous. |
Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:17:00 -
[19]
Correct me if I¦m wrong but I don't think the devs have said anything about how jumpdrives work. For all we know they could just be necessary for so big ships to use the jump gates. That is they couldn't jump unless they had a jump drive. So please no preemptive whining thanks 
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Capacitor research |
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:19:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Derisor
Originally by: mahhy
I'm not a fan of blokades anyhow, since I don't believe they work. Personally I think trying to blockade a system in Eve is useless. There currently is no such thing as control of a system. You're welcome to try it of course, but its just not really *enfoceable*.
Dont want to get too far OT but I have seen them work. Poeple with 45km bubbles and tackler fleets can be brutal. BSes that jump in are just toast. They cant align fast enough to rejump. Some frigs can run the blockade if they are set up for it but they are rare.
Only complete idiots warp to a gate when the system is full of enemies. I always warp to a point a few thousand km from the gate and scan for bubbles. Also blockades tend to be on a handful of gates because they take lots of man power and are pretty boring. And all smart people use scouts to check the usual systems for camps before moving anything valuable. Loners can just wait for off hours and move any where pretty much unmolested.
You are right that blockades are nasty, but they typically last for a scant few hours. A standard alliance "blockade" is one ship that calls in the gank squads when it spots someone. After all there is very little need to blockade a system for protection.
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:22:00 -
[21]
Edited by: mahhy on 30/05/2005 12:21:57
Originally by: Derisor
Originally by: mahhy
I'm not a fan of blokades anyhow, since I don't believe they work. Personally I think trying to blockade a system in Eve is useless. There currently is no such thing as control of a system. You're welcome to try it of course, but its just not really *enfoceable*.
Dont want to get too far OT but I have seen them work. Poeple with 45km bubbles and tackler fleets can be brutal. BSes that jump in are just toast. They cant align fast enough to rejump. Some frigs can run the blockade if they are set up for it but they are rare.
Fair enough, overwhelming force can be a valid tactic.
The only problem is when the other side shows up with even more force  Bubbles or no bubbles, with a bit of skill, a good leader and a touch of luck the bigger force will generally win.
Course if the bigger force has crap leadership, no skill/experience, they'll get slaughtered.
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:23:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Dust Puppy
Correct me if I¦m wrong but I don't think the devs have said anything about how jumpdrives work. For all we know they could just be necessary for so big ships to use the jump gates. That is they couldn't jump unless they had a jump drive. So please no preemptive whining thanks
I suggest you go read the dev blogs on BFS then. They have stated that they will not use gates. Exact mechanims are not known, but they will apparently use fuel, and some sort of beacon placed at the jump point (which takes time to prepare). They also said that it was likely that the beacon would give away the fact that a BFS was in bound, and give defenders a chance to find and destroy the beacon. So you arent going to see them jumping around at whim like the Titan did in the recent event. They are siege weapons.
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Loka
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:33:00 -
[23]
Easy way to counter this will be that the would need to be near a jump gate.
Probably something like, the gate wouldnt produce enough energy for the ship to jump, but serves them as nav computer. So you need to establish a comlink with a gate, to get the coordiantes for your jump.
This will mean you will travel like any other ship, but would still need fuel.
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Dead or Alive
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Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: theRaptor
I suggest you go read the dev blogs on BFS then. They have stated that they will not use gates. Exact mechanims are not known, but they will apparently use fuel, and some sort of beacon placed at the jump point (which takes time to prepare). They also said that it was likely that the beacon would give away the fact that a BFS was in bound, and give defenders a chance to find and destroy the beacon. So you arent going to see them jumping around at whim like the Titan did in the recent event. They are siege weapons.
Must have missed the beacon part  knew all the other stuff though
Didn't find the post you are referring to but I'm sure it's there. Did they say that they could jump to any system though?
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Capacitor research |
Gerome Doutrande
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:35:00 -
[25]
i personally expect jump drives to be severely limited in what you can do with em, personally i favor an approach a bit similar to what interstellar travel is done in the "good old battletech universe", which could translate to the following for eve:
- limited maximum travel distance per jump
- a long recharge time, necessity to use recharging facilities or fuel for the jumpdrive after each jump
- not being able to select the jump in point but rather appearing at a predefined position (jump gate, or the sun) and/or at a location marked with a deployed jump beacon
- a ship with jump drive not being able to move or warp for an extended amount of time after a system jump, combined with constraints regarding logging a jump drive equipped ship off
- a jump drive equipped ship being vulnerable for a period of time directly after a jump has been performed
- a ship with jump drive not being able to dock at standard stations or player starbases
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:35:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Loka
Easy way to counter this will be that the would need to be near a jump gate.
Probably something like, the gate wouldnt produce enough energy for the ship to jump, but serves them as nav computer. So you need to establish a comlink with a gate, to get the coordiantes for your jump.
This will mean you will travel like any other ship, but would still need fuel.
The beacon scheme is better. As long as they fix scan probes so that people can't make unscannable safes. Or make beacons only placeable at a large gravity well (planet/moon/star).
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:38:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Gerome Doutrande
a ship with jump drive not being able to dock at standard stations or player starbases
[/list]
How exactly would they fit modules? :P
And don't say they can refit in the field. It would make them even more uber. Use travel setup, then change over to PVP setup in destination system.
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Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:43:00 -
[28]
Originally by: mahhy
Edited by: mahhy on 30/05/2005 12:21:57
Originally by: Derisor
Originally by: mahhy
I'm not a fan of blokades anyhow, since I don't believe they work. Personally I think trying to blockade a system in Eve is useless. There currently is no such thing as control of a system. You're welcome to try it of course, but its just not really *enfoceable*.
Dont want to get too far OT but I have seen them work. Poeple with 45km bubbles and tackler fleets can be brutal. BSes that jump in are just toast. They cant align fast enough to rejump. Some frigs can run the blockade if they are set up for it but they are rare.
Fair enough, overwhelming force can be a valid tactic.
The only problem is when the other side shows up with even more force Bubbles or no bubbles, with a bit of skill, a good leader and a touch of luck the bigger force will generally win.
Course if the bigger force has crap leadership, no skill/experience, they'll get slaughtered.
Problem ? No problem man ... thats what keeps me playing ... mmmmmm fleet battles. Im a noob to PVP in eve but I swear some of the things ive seen in the last 2 weeks (50 foundation ships moving in a fleet) just make me want to resubscribe for 10 years. =)
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
Skyraker7
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:44:00 -
[29]
These Dreadnoughts are going to be horribly, horribly expensive...
Personally I can't wait for one of them to leave empire... because it will be toast.
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Gerome Doutrande
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: theRaptor
How exactly would they fit modules? :P
And don't say they can refit in the field. It would make them even more uber. Use travel setup, then change over to PVP setup in destination system.
haha good point hadn't considered that. what might be a solution that is interesting and at the same time adds more requirements to have a jump drive ship would be that you need a special "bfs maintenance facility" deployed at a pos to equip it. or you can switch modules but have a really really slowly recharging capacitor. well, or be allowed to use a station. 
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