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![Derisor Derisor](/images/people/img13.png)
Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 10:24:00 -
[1]
I see that the devs are planning to introduce jump drives in the next big content update when they bring out dreadnoughts. This concerns me for a number of reasons. I worry that allowing people to jump without using the gates would essentially destroy the fabric of the game.
In many other games this has happened. The introduction of wide ranging teleportation has shrunk worlds, blown markets to nothingness and rendered strategic PvP useless.
In Eve, trade, pvp and many other things are based on the fact that it takes some amount of time to get somewhere. If a ship is able to just jump to any system in the galaxy, as some forum users have reuqested, this will be destroyed. Fleets will be able to respond to incursions anywherei nthe galaxy in seconds, trade will be reduced to who has the jump drives to move goods back and forth in an instant. Hyper deflation will set in and so on. This could easily kill the game.
Imagine the pvp situation. The pain about having a POS in deep space is being there to defend it on a regular basis and also whoring missions in empire at the same time. With jump drives the player can do both. Scary.
I implore the devs to consider this and to ally these fears with some more information on how jump drives can work. TBH I would rather not even have them at all but rather have player constructable stargates to reach jove and other areas. That would be much cooler anyway.
--------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
![Lesta Mano Lesta Mano](/images/people/img12.png)
Lesta Mano
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Posted - 2005.05.30 10:31:00 -
[2]
Don't be.. from what I gather using a jump drive is going to be a huge ISK sink. CCP stated it will come into the heavily pre-nerfed (and the skill requierments to use one are nothing to sneeze at). So it will probably make the EVE universe smaller, but the cost will insure it is used sparingly. And there is a very limited form of 'jump drive' in the game already: clone jumping..
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![Joshua Calvert Joshua Calvert](/images/people/img8.png)
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2005.05.30 10:36:00 -
[3]
Not really worth worrying about until we know more about its capabilities.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
![Derisor Derisor](/images/people/img15.png)
Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 10:42:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Derisor on 30/05/2005 10:47:09 Edited by: Derisor on 30/05/2005 10:43:14
Originally by: Lesta Mano Don't be.. from what I gather using a jump drive is going to be a huge ISK sink. CCP stated it will come into the heavily pre-nerfed (and the skill requierments to use one are nothing to sneeze at). So it will probably make the EVE universe smaller, but the cost will insure it is used sparingly. And there is a very limited form of 'jump drive' in the game already: clone jumping..
Cost in a MMOG is an illusory control mechanism. The other games I am referring to also thought it out as you did. It destroyed them. Literally destroyed the games, the entire fabric ripped.
Just think of the impact on fleet ops if you know that at any time a dreadnought can jump in on you with no warning and from half the galaxy away. It would do horrid things to pvp. You basically couldnt pvp at all unless you had a super fleet capable of killing a DN because all they need is one, leap in the system and obliterate you.
Think of the impact on trade. One corp with a single dreadnought could blow the market to hell. They could load it and make billions in a single day instajumping to other systems.
No game is perfect, and eve is no exception, but its pretty good now. Best out there for those that like a challenging game. But jump drives could kill it.
Dont do it CCP .. I beg you. Dont give into the carebears and whiners that want instatravel. They are wrong .. they dont know what they are doing. Ignore them.
Let us build player owned stargates instead. And even limit those to routes "reachable" within a boundary. That should be more than sufficient to explore jove space.
Originally by: Joshua Calvert Not really worth worrying about until we know more about its capabilities.
I worry until I know the capabilities. If I know them and get info that allays my fears then I wont worry anymore. I will not be content to wait and see what impact they have on the game. I have played over 20 mmogs and I have seen them blown to dust by teleportation.
I like Eve too much to want that to happen here.
EDIT -- Even if the jump drives can jump only one system that can destroy the fabric of the game. PvP is based on being able to find the enemy and space is very big. If you blocade a gate but they can just poof and jump into the system avoiding the blocade then you have no control over space anymore.
ALL JUMPING SHOULD HAPPEN AT STARGATES. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
![Lesta Mano Lesta Mano](/images/people/img12.png)
Lesta Mano
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Posted - 2005.05.30 10:47:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Derisor
Cost in a MMOG is an illusory control mechanism. The other games I am referring to also thought it out as you did. It destroyed them. Literally destroyed the games, the entire fabric ripped.
Lol, fine.. 100 mil per jump.. per ship with a jumpdrive.. good luck making bilions on the market and having huge fleets taking down alliances in surprise attacks. You still fell cost is an illusory control mechanism?
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![Derisor Derisor](/images/people/img9.png)
Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 10:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lesta Mano
Originally by: Derisor
Cost in a MMOG is an illusory control mechanism. The other games I am referring to also thought it out as you did. It destroyed them. Literally destroyed the games, the entire fabric ripped.
Lol, fine.. 100 mil per jump.. per ship with a jumpdrive.. good luck making bilions on the market and having huge fleets taking down alliances in surprise attacks. You still fell cost is an illusory control mechanism?
Yes. Because I know players with 50 times that much. And if they load up a 50km3 cargo at one jump and jump to another they can make 10 times the cost of the jump. Also, whats 100m to kill 25 battleships ? Chump change.
One thing game after game after game after game has taught us is that money in a MMOG is water. People can and do get RICH as hell. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
![Sergeant Spot Sergeant Spot](/images/people/img13.png)
Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2005.05.30 10:56:00 -
[7]
My hunch is that Dreads, like Battleships, will be victims waiting to happen if used carelessly, but like a battleships, capable of decisive firepower.
And CCP has long shown that they will make vigorous use of the nerf bat if needed. If the Jump drive gets to ugly, it will be nerfed, of that I am sure.
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![H0ot H0ot](/images/people/img16.png)
H0ot
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:00:00 -
[8]
I agree with Derisor, if jump drives aren't worked out properly they can become the biggest game-killer since L4 missions, aka Jita's on-demand Battleship Spawn. ![ugh](/images/icon_ugh.gif)
(\_/) (O.o) (> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world domination. |
![mahhy mahhy](/images/people/img11.png)
mahhy
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:02:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Derisor *snip*
At the very least the devs have discussed things like:
1.) limited the number of systems you can "bypass" by using jump drives 2.) needing fuel to use 'em 3.) needing to anchor a "target" in the system you wish to jump to.
I think, from previous comments from CCP that they are well and truely aware of what a jump drive *could* do to this game.
I also suggest you read back through dev blogs, dev chats and such, before posting stuff like this that has been addressed, in the sense that CCP has shown they are aware of potential problems.
My personal bet is that the first incarnation of jumpdrives will be "stargates for big ships". I.e. those ships that cant apparently fit thru gate will have a jumpdrive, but the ONLY place it will take them is the same destinations as the systems stargates. Heavily pre-nerfed jumpdrives 4tw.
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![Derisor Derisor](/images/people/img11.png)
Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:03:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Sergeant Spot My hunch is that Dreads, like Battleships, will be victims waiting to happen if used carelessly, but like a battleships, capable of decisive firepower.
And CCP has long shown that they will make vigorous use of the nerf bat if needed. If the Jump drive gets to ugly, it will be nerfed, of that I am sure.
They wont have a chance. It could kill the game quite quikly. The first 5 or six dreads with a jump drive will destroy the economy. Unless they are willing to do a 3 week rollback (which wouldnt be popular to say the least) they would be screwed.
Better to simply rethink it. Let us build our own stargates in 0.0. That would be much more fun. Something that others could take over or destroy and so on.
--------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
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![Sentani Sentani](/images/people/img7.png)
Sentani
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:06:00 -
[11]
have you guys even thaugth about the cooldown time on the jumpdrives ?
and you should only be able to go 1 jump at the time...
so a frigate or even BS will be faster![Rolling Eyes](/images/icon_rolleyes.gif)
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![Derisor Derisor](/images/people/img3.png)
Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:07:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Derisor on 30/05/2005 11:11:02 Edited by: Derisor on 30/05/2005 11:07:16
Originally by: mahhy
I also suggest you read back through dev blogs, dev chats and such, before posting stuff like this that has been addressed, in the sense that CCP has shown they are aware of potential problems.
I have read them. I am seriously concerned that they arent scared enough. They could destroy the game. I cant say that forcefully enough.
Originally by: mahhy
My personal bet is that the first incarnation of jumpdrives will be "stargates for big ships". I.e. those ships that cant apparently fit thru gate will have a jumpdrive, but the ONLY place it will take them is the same destinations as the systems stargates. Heavily pre-nerfed jumpdrives 4tw.
And what do you think that would do to system blocades? Think about it man. You are experienced pvper I believe. These ships would be used to pass up blocades. There would be a string of anchored targets in space that people would use to jump to; allowing them to totally rampage any system they want. No more control of who gets in or out. Intel would be useless as they can safe spot jump to safe spot jump. Then all you need is one bookmark to a gate overlook sniping spot further out than even BSes can hit and you have a massively unbalancing force in the game. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
![mahhy mahhy](/images/people/img11.png)
mahhy
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:15:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Derisor And what do you think that would do to system blocades? Think about it man. You are experienced pvper I believe. These ships would be used to pass up blocades. There would be a string of anchored targets in space that people would use to jump to; allowing them to totally rampage any system they want. No more control of who gets in or out. Intel would be useless as they can safe spot jump to safe spot jump.
I'm not a fan of blokades anyhow, since I don't believe they work. Personally I think trying to blockade a system in Eve is useless. There currently is no such thing as control of a system. You're welcome to try it of course, but its just not really *enfoceable*.
That aside, as I understood it, the "targets" used to jump to wouldn't be some easy to deploy, drop it anywhere type object. Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought they'd end up being things that took quite awhile to anchor. If so, and as long as scan probes can find them, and their anchoring time is significant it should be no problem (ignore the fact scan probes aint perfect).
I also have faith that CCP wouldn't make the "targets" multiple use, nor would they be exceptionally hard to destroy like a GSC. Once used by a single ship for a single jump they'd be "destroyed", and if you did find them with scan probes (assuming you put the effort in) desctruction would be fairly simple.
In general though, I actually agree with you that I don't want to see jump drives letting a ship jump from Tenal, down into Period Basis, no matter the cost, or the use of "targets", or the skills involved, or whatever else CCP comes up with. Limited distances okay. Across the map: NO.
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![Derisor Derisor](/images/people/img2.png)
Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:20:00 -
[14]
Originally by: mahhy I'm not a fan of blokades anyhow, since I don't believe they work. Personally I think trying to blockade a system in Eve is useless. There currently is no such thing as control of a system. You're welcome to try it of course, but its just not really *enfoceable*.
Dont want to get too far OT but I have seen them work. Poeple with 45km bubbles and tackler fleets can be brutal. BSes that jump in are just toast. They cant align fast enough to rejump. Some frigs can run the blockade if they are set up for it but they are rare.
--------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
![theRaptor theRaptor](/images/people/img6.png)
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:47:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Derisor And what do you think that would do to system blocades? Think about it man. You are experienced pvper I believe. These ships would be used to pass up blocades.
Blockades are never strong enough or long enough to keep people out. No matter how much the big 0.0 alliances like to think otherwise. And the beacon system CCP were talking about (with the beacon apparently being able to be scanned for) should limit BFS to siege weapons.
Originally by: Derisor
There would be a string of anchored targets in space that people would use to jump to; allowing them to totally rampage any system they want. No more control of who gets in or out. Intel would be useless as they can safe spot jump to safe spot jump. Then all you need is one bookmark to a gate overlook sniping spot further out than even BSes can hit and you have a massively unbalancing force in the game.
1) They are meant to be a massively unbalancing force. Thats the point. New tactics will be needed.
2) CCP now days nerf the absolute crap out of anything new (eg scan probes, stealth bombers). Frankly I expect Dreadnaughts to be fairly crap on release.
3) Who says they can outrange BS? If they can then they will be used as the ultimate sniper. But they could still be powerful with only BS range or less.
These *are* going to be released. Most people want them to be rare. CCP have stated they want them to be rare. And CCP want to make them *time* and Isk intensive. Yes rich players will be able to afford to go pick up their washing with them. But they will have to play a bunch of other people to get fuel, and place the beacons. And AFAIK the drive will not be instantaneous, it will have to charge up. Even 5-10 minutes once the beacon is set, are going to make them to slow for anything but siege usage. --------------------------------------------------
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![Maya Rkell Maya Rkell](/images/people/img10.png)
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:52:00 -
[16]
So you're frightened of somethign we don't know the details of? Run rabbit, run.
Trade is, bluntly, not one of the worries I'd have given jumping WON'T be free (one of the few things we DO know). And trade IS ISK-limited. As for being able to breach the enemy lines, yep, that's one of the things I'd hope DN's can DO.
Jump Drives are part of the NECESSARY DYNAMIC which must form if anything is to be done about insta-jumps in the long run, as well.
"As far as I can tell, It doesn't matter who you are, If you can believe there's something worth fighting for " - Garbage, "Parade" |
![KIAInkZ KIAInkZ](/images/people/img5.png)
KIAInkZ
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Posted - 2005.05.30 11:57:00 -
[17]
I might be able to use theat jump drive skill I've had for the last 2 years :) ---
Forums/Killboard - http://www.kia-corp.co.uk |
![TekRa TekRa](/images/people/img10.png)
TekRa
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:08:00 -
[18]
The sky is falling!
> With the lights out it's less dangerous. |
![Dust Puppy Dust Puppy](/images/people/img6.png)
Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:17:00 -
[19]
Correct me if I¦m wrong but I don't think the devs have said anything about how jumpdrives work. For all we know they could just be necessary for so big ships to use the jump gates. That is they couldn't jump unless they had a jump drive. So please no preemptive whining thanks ![Wink](/images/icon_wink.gif) __________ Capacitor research |
![theRaptor theRaptor](/images/people/img7.png)
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:19:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Derisor
Originally by: mahhy I'm not a fan of blokades anyhow, since I don't believe they work. Personally I think trying to blockade a system in Eve is useless. There currently is no such thing as control of a system. You're welcome to try it of course, but its just not really *enfoceable*.
Dont want to get too far OT but I have seen them work. Poeple with 45km bubbles and tackler fleets can be brutal. BSes that jump in are just toast. They cant align fast enough to rejump. Some frigs can run the blockade if they are set up for it but they are rare.
Only complete idiots warp to a gate when the system is full of enemies. I always warp to a point a few thousand km from the gate and scan for bubbles. Also blockades tend to be on a handful of gates because they take lots of man power and are pretty boring. And all smart people use scouts to check the usual systems for camps before moving anything valuable. Loners can just wait for off hours and move any where pretty much unmolested.
You are right that blockades are nasty, but they typically last for a scant few hours. A standard alliance "blockade" is one ship that calls in the gank squads when it spots someone. After all there is very little need to blockade a system for protection. --------------------------------------------------
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![mahhy mahhy](/images/people/img15.png)
mahhy
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:22:00 -
[21]
Edited by: mahhy on 30/05/2005 12:21:57
Originally by: Derisor
Originally by: mahhy I'm not a fan of blokades anyhow, since I don't believe they work. Personally I think trying to blockade a system in Eve is useless. There currently is no such thing as control of a system. You're welcome to try it of course, but its just not really *enfoceable*.
Dont want to get too far OT but I have seen them work. Poeple with 45km bubbles and tackler fleets can be brutal. BSes that jump in are just toast. They cant align fast enough to rejump. Some frigs can run the blockade if they are set up for it but they are rare.
Fair enough, overwhelming force can be a valid tactic.
The only problem is when the other side shows up with even more force Bubbles or no bubbles, with a bit of skill, a good leader and a touch of luck the bigger force will generally win.
Course if the bigger force has crap leadership, no skill/experience, they'll get slaughtered.
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![theRaptor theRaptor](/images/people/img11.png)
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:23:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Dust Puppy Correct me if I¦m wrong but I don't think the devs have said anything about how jumpdrives work. For all we know they could just be necessary for so big ships to use the jump gates. That is they couldn't jump unless they had a jump drive. So please no preemptive whining thanks ![Wink](/images/icon_wink.gif)
I suggest you go read the dev blogs on BFS then. They have stated that they will not use gates. Exact mechanims are not known, but they will apparently use fuel, and some sort of beacon placed at the jump point (which takes time to prepare). They also said that it was likely that the beacon would give away the fact that a BFS was in bound, and give defenders a chance to find and destroy the beacon. So you arent going to see them jumping around at whim like the Titan did in the recent event. They are siege weapons. --------------------------------------------------
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![Loka Loka](/images/people/img10.png)
Loka
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:33:00 -
[23]
Easy way to counter this will be that the would need to be near a jump gate.
Probably something like, the gate wouldnt produce enough energy for the ship to jump, but serves them as nav computer. So you need to establish a comlink with a gate, to get the coordiantes for your jump.
This will mean you will travel like any other ship, but would still need fuel. _____________________________________ Dead or Alive
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![Dust Puppy Dust Puppy](/images/people/img8.png)
Dust Puppy
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: theRaptor
I suggest you go read the dev blogs on BFS then. They have stated that they will not use gates. Exact mechanims are not known, but they will apparently use fuel, and some sort of beacon placed at the jump point (which takes time to prepare). They also said that it was likely that the beacon would give away the fact that a BFS was in bound, and give defenders a chance to find and destroy the beacon. So you arent going to see them jumping around at whim like the Titan did in the recent event. They are siege weapons.
Must have missed the beacon part knew all the other stuff though ![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif) Didn't find the post you are referring to but I'm sure it's there. Did they say that they could jump to any system though? __________ Capacitor research |
![Gerome Doutrande Gerome Doutrande](/images/people/img14.png)
Gerome Doutrande
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:35:00 -
[25]
i personally expect jump drives to be severely limited in what you can do with em, personally i favor an approach a bit similar to what interstellar travel is done in the "good old battletech universe", which could translate to the following for eve:
- limited maximum travel distance per jump
- a long recharge time, necessity to use recharging facilities or fuel for the jumpdrive after each jump
- not being able to select the jump in point but rather appearing at a predefined position (jump gate, or the sun) and/or at a location marked with a deployed jump beacon
- a ship with jump drive not being able to move or warp for an extended amount of time after a system jump, combined with constraints regarding logging a jump drive equipped ship off
- a jump drive equipped ship being vulnerable for a period of time directly after a jump has been performed
- a ship with jump drive not being able to dock at standard stations or player starbases
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![theRaptor theRaptor](/images/people/img13.png)
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:35:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Loka Easy way to counter this will be that the would need to be near a jump gate.
Probably something like, the gate wouldnt produce enough energy for the ship to jump, but serves them as nav computer. So you need to establish a comlink with a gate, to get the coordiantes for your jump.
This will mean you will travel like any other ship, but would still need fuel.
The beacon scheme is better. As long as they fix scan probes so that people can't make unscannable safes. Or make beacons only placeable at a large gravity well (planet/moon/star). --------------------------------------------------
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![theRaptor theRaptor](/images/people/img4.png)
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:38:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Gerome Doutrande a ship with jump drive not being able to dock at standard stations or player starbases [/list]
How exactly would they fit modules? :P
And don't say they can refit in the field. It would make them even more uber. Use travel setup, then change over to PVP setup in destination system. --------------------------------------------------
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![Derisor Derisor](/images/people/img11.png)
Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:43:00 -
[28]
Originally by: mahhy Edited by: mahhy on 30/05/2005 12:21:57
Originally by: Derisor
Originally by: mahhy I'm not a fan of blokades anyhow, since I don't believe they work. Personally I think trying to blockade a system in Eve is useless. There currently is no such thing as control of a system. You're welcome to try it of course, but its just not really *enfoceable*.
Dont want to get too far OT but I have seen them work. Poeple with 45km bubbles and tackler fleets can be brutal. BSes that jump in are just toast. They cant align fast enough to rejump. Some frigs can run the blockade if they are set up for it but they are rare.
Fair enough, overwhelming force can be a valid tactic.
The only problem is when the other side shows up with even more force Bubbles or no bubbles, with a bit of skill, a good leader and a touch of luck the bigger force will generally win.
Course if the bigger force has crap leadership, no skill/experience, they'll get slaughtered.
Problem ? No problem man ... thats what keeps me playing ... mmmmmm fleet battles. Im a noob to PVP in eve but I swear some of the things ive seen in the last 2 weeks (50 foundation ships moving in a fleet) just make me want to resubscribe for 10 years. =)
--------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
![Skyraker7 Skyraker7](/images/people/img2.png)
Skyraker7
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:44:00 -
[29]
These Dreadnoughts are going to be horribly, horribly expensive...
Personally I can't wait for one of them to leave empire... because it will be toast.
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![Gerome Doutrande Gerome Doutrande](/images/people/img4.png)
Gerome Doutrande
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: theRaptor
How exactly would they fit modules? :P
And don't say they can refit in the field. It would make them even more uber. Use travel setup, then change over to PVP setup in destination system.
haha good point hadn't considered that. what might be a solution that is interesting and at the same time adds more requirements to have a jump drive ship would be that you need a special "bfs maintenance facility" deployed at a pos to equip it. or you can switch modules but have a really really slowly recharging capacitor. well, or be allowed to use a station. ![Smile](/images/icon_smile.gif)
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![Derisor Derisor](/images/people/img3.png)
Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.30 12:46:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Gerome Doutrande
- a ship with jump drive not being able to move or warp for an extended amount of time after a system jump, combined with constraints regarding logging a jump drive equipped ship off
OMG .. what a thought ... I hadnt considered. The dreadnought that loggs off if attacked with enough force. Down to 10% and only 5 minutes to go, tackled, webbed, outgunned .... poof
--------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
![mahhy mahhy](/images/people/img7.png)
mahhy
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Posted - 2005.05.30 13:10:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Derisor Problem ? No problem man ... thats what keeps me playing ... mmmmmm fleet battles. Im a noob to PVP in eve but I swear some of the things ive seen in the last 2 weeks (50 foundation ships moving in a fleet) just make me want to resubscribe for 10 years. =)
"Problem" was meant for those trying to blockade a system... a bigger force descending upon them can generally be thought of as a problem, for them ![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif)
Anyhow, if you're participating in large FA fleet battles I'm surprised you're not making threads about the only *really* major problem in this game: lag Oh and ships vanishing long before the 2 minute logoff timer "exploit" thingy is exceptionally annoying too.
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![Sergeant Spot Sergeant Spot](/images/people/img8.png)
Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2005.05.30 13:18:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Skyraker7 These Dreadnoughts are going to be horribly, horribly expensive...
Personally I can't wait for one of them to leave empire... because it will be toast.
Maybe....
Depends on if the pilot is using his brains.
I expect they'll eventually be a lot like Battleships, a powerful, expensive fighting tool that is a victim waiting to happen if used carelessly.
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![Kara Kaprica Kara Kaprica](/images/people/img12.png)
Kara Kaprica
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Posted - 2005.05.30 13:20:00 -
[34]
You are also asumming that Dreadnoughts will be outrageously powerful. Battleships can be killed by Interceptors. It is simply what a Battleship is to a Cruiser, much bigger and stronger, but with that size and power comes weakness. Fear. Want to lose something like that in pvp recklessly? Activate your jump drive and jump in on top of a massive camp at your scanned jump in point? Point Blank, under your guns tracking?
There are many ships in this game that have the ability to kill ships much larger than them with the right set-up.
As to economy, if the Jumpdrive itself is very expensive to operate, then the trader using it is going to RAISE the price on his goods to cover his costs. Yes it might be harmful to the varied regional prices but i do not see something that will cost ISK where as Warp Drive is free reducing prices. Its just not good buisness.
"Vengence delivered, on time and cold as ordered" |
![Zyrla Bladestorm Zyrla Bladestorm](/images/people/img3.png)
Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2005.05.30 13:34:00 -
[35]
Originally by: theRaptor
Originally by: Gerome Doutrande a ship with jump drive not being able to dock at standard stations or player starbases [/list]
How exactly would they fit modules? :P
And don't say they can refit in the field. It would make them even more uber. Use travel setup, then change over to PVP setup in destination system.
Potentially, they have to be built at a POS (which makes a lot of sense to me, if you want an Uber anti-Pos ship you have to have your own POS out there at risk) if they are, then the hassle of requiring them to use a maintenance array to fit modules is peanuts compared to the hassle of building them ![Wink](/images/icon_wink.gif)
Its all speculation though right now, I'm expecting CCP to wuss out and have them built like any other ship ![Neutral](/images/icon_neutral.gif) . ----- Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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![Derran Derran](/images/people/img12.png)
Derran
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Posted - 2005.05.30 17:05:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Derisor
And what do you think that would do to system blocades? Think about it man. You are experienced pvper I believe. These ships would be used to pass up blocades. There would be a string of anchored targets in space that people would use to jump to; allowing them to totally rampage any system they want. No more control of who gets in or out. Intel would be useless as they can safe spot jump to safe spot jump. Then all you need is one bookmark to a gate overlook sniping spot further out than even BSes can hit and you have a massively unbalancing force in the game.
You mean like you can avoid a blockade now with instas? While a person can be caught on the otherside, assuming the blockade is setup so this is possible, chances drop drastically against interceptors. You can also travel pretty quickly using the same method. And if I was that blockade being sniped at by a dreadnaught, I'd be warped out long before I was targetted, send in a cloaked covert ops to orbit the dreadnaught and then warp to the covert ops to get under the optimal of the dreadnaught and kill it. There is also talk of a warning of a warning in the system when a jump drive capable ship is coming in. These large ships are supposed to be known for shifting the tidal patterns of a planet after all.
I'm not as concerned as you because alot of things are going to feed back in on themselves. I do anticipate the system jump will cost alot of cap and as well as have an extended cooldown period before it can be done again. It may also turn out to be scalable thing if they make it so you can jump more than one system at a time. There may even be a consumer goods fuel cost to it too, kind of like a POS.
Running cargo from one system to another with a dreadnaught would be harsh. While you are using your cargo space for whatever else regular cargo, you have no ammunition for your cargo. And assuming there is a large cap drain and you want to use boosters, they use up a ton of cargo space too. I doubt the cargo space would make it worthwhile to do this regardless. Use an industrial ship with instas. It will likely be more efficient.
And while I am sure the arguement is there that one can readily afford a dreadnaught or jump drive capable ship, don't forget level 4 missions are also on the block to be changed as well. I do run them myself pretty easily but if 3 groups of ships bear down on me (plans are to make more groups aggro when shot at if I read the blog right), it tends to be over (either by them killing me or me warping away).
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![Gerome Doutrande Gerome Doutrande](/images/people/img15.png)
Gerome Doutrande
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Posted - 2005.05.30 17:19:00 -
[37]
personally i tend to think of dreadnoughts and other ships as being extremely slow moving (50 m/s should be fast for a dreadnought), there should be no bfs sized mwds or afterburners, and maybe the ships shouldn't have the ability to warp but would have to do "in system jumps" (where the stuff like cooldown mentioned in the post above or what i called recharge times would apply). so in short with a real "capital ship feel", which is in my opinion missing from eve so far.
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![Joshua Foiritain Joshua Foiritain](/images/people/img2.png)
Joshua Foiritain
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Posted - 2005.05.30 17:19:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Derisor
And what do you think that would do to system blocades? Think about it man. You are experienced pvper I believe. These ships would be used to pass up blocades.
Honoes people would have to come up with tactics other then focussing fire on anything that comes trough a star gate? ![Surprised](/images/icon_surprised.gif)
Itll be fun to see what happens to alliances when the NWO and jump drives come out. Fee for all 0.0 access for the win ![Smile](/images/icon_smile.gif) ---------------------------
[Coreli Corporation Mainframe] |
![Larno Larno](/images/people/img1.png)
Larno
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Posted - 2005.05.30 18:15:00 -
[39]
In the dev blog it says: Quote: ...it serves as quite an adequate anti-battleship machine, having the firepower of a couple itself and the defenses a bit more than a couple...
So we see here it's hardly a moving fleet. Also I think the jump drives will have severe limitations, perhaps you could only jump to adjacent constellations or regions and I'm sure it will be very expensive in terms of fuel costs. I'm sure the ship itself will be very expensive aswell.
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![Gariuys Gariuys](/images/people/img10.png)
Gariuys
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Posted - 2005.05.30 18:54:00 -
[40]
You're worried that something that's gonna be prenerfed to hell and back, and will cost ungoldy amounts of isk both in getting and using, is gonna destroy the economy in 2 hours flat, don't you think you're exxagerating just a tad? ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
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![Kade Shaderow Kade Shaderow](/images/people/img15.png)
Kade Shaderow
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Posted - 2005.05.30 18:57:00 -
[41]
OH NO NEW FEATURES COMING OUT LETS PANIC ABOUT THEM BEFORE WE'VE EVEN SEEN WHAT THEY CAN DO
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![Bubba Fett Bubba Fett](/images/people/img4.png)
Bubba Fett
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Posted - 2005.05.30 20:06:00 -
[42]
The way I see it, the solution is MASSIVE cap use and the jump beacon. You need to fuel the jumpdrive with cap charges like a weapon, and when you jump it takes all those charges AND 3/4 of the ships cap. You'd jump out of the system near a gate and into the system at a planet where the beacon was anchored. You'd also be able to gang jump the ships close to the Dreadnaught.
The idea is this: The dreadnaught and it's fleet approach an uncamped gate and start to charge the jump engines. In 3-5minutes the jumpdrive charges and the fleet jumps to the next beacon placed and anchored by an advance scout. (probably flying a covert ops ship) When the fleet jumps in, the jumpdrive needs to be reloaded, (10 seconds or so) AND the cap needs to recharge (20 to 30 minutes) before the next jump. Of course the cap charges that the jumpdrive uses would be so massive that you wouldn't be able to carry enough for more than a few jumps so you might have to buy fuel in the system, OR bring an indy with a mobile fuel factory. This would be an indy-only module that would convert common minerals to cap charges. This would mean that for long trips PART of your fleet would need to be an indy and mining ships just to provide fuel. (unless you can dock an buy some)
Once the Dreadnaught is fueled and cap charged it moves to a gate and starts charging the jump drive. If there's a camp there, they fight. If there's a camp somewhere else that's paying attention they warp over and try and deploy a mobile jump disruptor and they fight. The jump disruptor would have a 60 second anchor time and would keep the fleet from jumping out while it's operating.
This system would make the jumpdrive a FLEET only weapon. You'd require fuel haulers or producers AND time between jumps. It would require smaller ships for it's protection while it recharges. And it would force the fleet to hold the proximity of a gate when jumping out.
It could also be COUNTERED by a fleet. They'd have to be in your system for at least 35 minutes so you'd have time to attack. They' have to travel in a group so they'd be hard to miss coming into local. They'd probably be traveling with weak haulers or fuel producers that they'd need to protect. They MIGHT need to mine for fuel so you could catch them at a belt. They'd HAVE to use a gate to jump out so you could send a scout to each one while they're still recharging. And the jump could be delayed with a module worth a few million isk. (mobile jump disruptor)
In short, titans/dreadnaughts would become a fleet combat weapon rather than just an indestructable hauler or solo BS.
![Smile](/images/icon_smile.gif)
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![OffBeaT OffBeaT](/images/people/img10.png)
OffBeaT
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Posted - 2005.05.30 21:29:00 -
[43]
from what im seeing said of these dreads is they will take a corp efferd too make and use and that they are basicly a moving space station, with weopon systems onboard. this is fine with me, they should be.
i think somone had also said too me that you can dock ships in them and move with these ships in them. if they cant this should be done too them asap. think of it man, with jump drives we could jump 20 or more systems deep in one jump, then launch small raiding fleets or npc hunting party's or just mining crews. the dread could eather cloak too hide or join in on the fight.
thay would also make great blockade runners for small hit teams or comando units if you wont too call them that or fast setup blockaders.
these ships cant work alone do too the cost of them, so they have too work in tandom with small fleets. also you should for the jumping pay a price in time befor you can jump again. (ie) the farther you jump the longer it takes too jump again. this would mean you could endup unwisely putting you dread at real risk of getting traped in a system should it lose its fleet and get found buy drones looking for a cloaked dread.
industrialists would use these ships aswell in the same way but just not for combat ofcorse. but take the same risks using them.
these ships should not beable too jump no more then 10 to 20 gates from any empire system.
what types of ships and how many of them they can pack is upto the dev's too workout.
i cant wait too see these ships, this is what we need in eve. more content not tuns more skills too keep us playing.
so in the end i dont see a problem with these jump drives at all. i think they will do real justice in the end for alot of diffrent reasons if they just dont let you get off too easy using them.
f- the money thing too use them, make it a time risk too use them. we cant have this loggen crap with these ships eather so this game got too deal with that in a real way.
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![DoctorDanny DoctorDanny](/images/people/img16.png)
DoctorDanny
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Posted - 2005.05.30 22:37:00 -
[44]
......
Covert opps frigate has located a large mining operation in low sec empire and drops off beacon at a safe-spot.
TunDraGon and Teddy forces man their assault frigates and interceptors and dock with the newly aquired dreadnought. Dreadnought jumps to aforementioned low sec system and the frigates undock and do their thing.
....
Man I can see it allready. Must start mining now so I can afford a Dreadnought....
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![Danton Marcellus Danton Marcellus](/images/people/img15.png)
Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2005.05.30 23:00:00 -
[45]
Very expensive fuelcells and a jumpdrive core that have a tencency to break would be comforting.
Convert Stations
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![Domalais Domalais](/images/people/img11.png)
Domalais
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Posted - 2005.05.31 03:10:00 -
[46]
Originally by: DoctorDanny ......
Covert opps frigate has located a large mining operation in low sec empire and drops off beacon at a safe-spot.
TunDraGon and Teddy forces man their assault frigates and interceptors and dock with the newly aquired dreadnought. Dreadnought jumps to aforementioned low sec system and the frigates undock and do their thing.
....
Man I can see it allready. Must start mining now so I can afford a Dreadnought....
A dreadnaught is not a carrier or a titan. I don't believe it will be able to carry other ships.![Very Happy](/images/icon_biggrin.gif)
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![OffBeaT OffBeaT](/images/people/img5.png)
OffBeaT
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Posted - 2005.05.31 05:02:00 -
[47]
Edited by: OffBeaT on 31/05/2005 05:06:15 Edited by: OffBeaT on 31/05/2005 05:03:43 well if its not the dread that can do that then the titan must of been the ship i was thinking off.
somone said somthing too me one time about one of these new ships being able too move with docked ships in her.
i say make dreads able too carry frigs/interceptors. titan's upto BS class. im told carrier's can only do drones.
i think the ships would be much more tactically usful this way and a hell of alot more fun. ![Cool](/images/icon_cool.gif)
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![DK Metz DK Metz](/images/people/img8.png)
DK Metz
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Posted - 2005.05.31 05:10:00 -
[48]
he he find the jump in point wait with ****load of nice bs and kill the dreadnoughts... gonna be so much fun seing people whine of loosing 1 bill isk ships... ________________________________ Radio for YOU
Carbide industries Elder Gank squad alpha |
![Derisor Derisor](/images/people/img8.png)
Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.31 07:58:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Kade Shaderow OH NO NEW FEATURES COMING OUT LETS PANIC ABOUT THEM BEFORE WE'VE EVEN SEEN WHAT THEY CAN DO
I prefer to avoid the oncomming train than to deal with medical or funeral bills if it somehow hits me.
Silly huh? --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
![MutationZ MutationZ](/images/people/img8.png)
MutationZ
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Posted - 2005.05.31 08:10:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Derisor
Originally by: Kade Shaderow OH NO NEW FEATURES COMING OUT LETS PANIC ABOUT THEM BEFORE WE'VE EVEN SEEN WHAT THEY CAN DO
I prefer to avoid the oncomming train than to deal with medical or funeral bills if it somehow hits me.
Silly huh?
Unless the oncoming train happens to be a figment of an overactive imagination.
Silly huh?
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![Derisor Derisor](/images/people/img9.png)
Derisor
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Posted - 2005.05.31 09:31:00 -
[51]
Originally by: MutationZ
Originally by: Derisor
Originally by: Kade Shaderow OH NO NEW FEATURES COMING OUT LETS PANIC ABOUT THEM BEFORE WE'VE EVEN SEEN WHAT THEY CAN DO
I prefer to avoid the oncomming train than to deal with medical or funeral bills if it somehow hits me.
Silly huh?
Unless the oncoming train happens to be a figment of an overactive imagination.
Silly huh?
Then it doesnt harm anything to discuss it does it? I would rather waste my time discussing how t avoid the train then just wait and see if its real or not. There is a probably chance that the train is real and a good chance that the trian is lethal. I want to head it off at the pass so to speak.
And if the thread irritates you, there is a simple solution. Dont reply. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
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