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Umega
Solis Mensa
116
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Posted - 2012.12.25 04:56:00 -
[31] - Quote
I see some people are still as dumb as ever.
Dual-web, SD, TD, TC ships would all like to have a word with you. If you really want a legitament PvP-active shield tank, you can kiss all of those goodbye. To those that want to comment how shield tanking promotes better 'dmg projection'.. please, continue.. it's amusing me.
And we can ignore how energized 'omni' plating doesn't cost cap, when invuln field does.. I suppose.
While we're ignoring and forgetting some things.. we should toss out how medium size SBs do not compete with equalivent sized ARs. When overheated.. this becomes even more pronounced. But we should ignore that.. along with the increased fitting costs of jumping a size up in SBs.
When the ASB candy is gone.. so is the reppin'. Bursting is great, for a limited time. Something that say, can last a cargo hold, and doesn't have to sacrifice one of it's resist spots to keep the candy cap flowing.. can be a good thing. But whatever.
Active armor rigs are better than active shield rep rigs.. yeah, I know. We got to forget about that for this thread to continue on it's current path.
TD/active MARs Myrm sucks.. and no reason to pretend otherwise..
Now.. someone quote this thread, and follow it up with a 'rock/paper/sissors' counter-arguement. Yeah, I remember how this forum works.
Remember, kids. Diversity really is a good thing. I prefer vibrant color, not simply black'n'white. |
Vixorz
Lynx Armada
39
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 05:11:00 -
[32] - Quote
This thread was about active armor tank and you guys derailed it completely. -¼-¼
Katran Luftschreck wrote:It is quite possible to fit a Myrmidon to have a passive shield regeneration of over 400 points per second.
I'd like to see someone try to top this with any amount of cap-stable armor repair.
Actually with three repper it tanks about that before OH: http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3769/triarmorrepmyrm.png
[Myrmidon, PvP Triple Rep]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Damage Control II Drone Damage Amplifier II Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II
220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M
Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Hobgoblin II x1 Hammerhead II x2 Ogre II x2 Warrior II x5
The thing is, it's a bit sad that you need a ship with a 37,5% total bonus and three reppers to be competent at active armor tanking. I don't know what CCP has up their sleeve, but i hope it's not an OP new module again.
Taking a look at the numbers of the 3 subcapital armor reppers i'm not quite sure if the problem is in the modules...
http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/2694/reppers.png
... but i wouldn't want a solution that implies giving bonuses to all armor ships... that would be a pathetic solution imho.
In any case, i don't have previous experience besides ASB in active shield tanking. (Gallente here) But i think if we want to compare active tanking between armor and shield we should compare it against conventional shield boosters fits. ASB's are just an aberration and there is nothing equivalent in armor. |
Angang Ostus
The Riot Formation Unclaimed.
11
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 06:21:00 -
[33] - Quote
A Cyclone can fit a LSB and a cap booster for excellent EHP, but due to the powergrid reqs a Brutix is stuck with MAR. The cap drain of armor reps are less so maybe if the pg of armor reppers was reduced so that a reactor control would allow you to fit a large then you could get similar performance to the Cyclone from the two slots. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
37
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 07:24:00 -
[34] - Quote
Random note. CCP Devs have said themselves Armour tanking needs a look at, believe it was somewhere in the BC Dev blog, or possibily the missile changes when looking at the Drake. So arguing 'It's all fine, it's in your mind, they are equal' doesn't really hold water anymore. It will be looked at 'soon'. As part of Tiericide somewhere.
And to that tripple repper 'cap stable' fit. Cap Boosters are NOT cap stable. They simply buy you additional time till you run out of charges, then your Cap regen is in the sink, and you cap out in a couple of minutes. Cap stable = actual regen rate. |
Umega
Solis Mensa
117
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 07:28:00 -
[35] - Quote
Is this thread also going to spawn the arguement of how DCU gives better armor resists than shield resist, ontop of the 60%-omni to structure when the two armor tanking (Gall/Amarr) have more structure hp than the other two?
I'm jus' sayin'.. since people want to start bringing up shield regen. Might as well bring up other outside variables as well into this.. you know, like how the extra resists and structure ehp = more total ehp.. AND makes armor tanking a better option for remote rep'ing. |
Vixorz
Lynx Armada
39
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Posted - 2012.12.25 08:01:00 -
[36] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: And to that tripple repper 'cap stable' fit. Cap Boosters are NOT cap stable. They simply buy you additional time till you run out of charges, then your Cap regen is in the sink, and you cap out in a couple of minutes. Cap stable = actual regen rate.
You didn't look at my other fit, did you? |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
259
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 09:53:00 -
[37] - Quote
Umega wrote:While we're ignoring and forgetting some things.. we should toss out how medium size SBs do not compete with equalivent sized ARs. When overheated.. this becomes even more pronounced. But we should ignore that.. along with the increased fitting costs of jumping a size up in SBs.
Do you really think fitting XL SB on Cyclone is difficult?
Myrm with just one Large Armor Repairer II, no other mods or implants used:
PG: 2300/1468,75
[Myrmidon, Myrmidon fit]
Large Armor Repairer II [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot] [Empty Low slot]
[Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot] [Empty Med slot]
[Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot] [Empty High slot]
[Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot] [Empty Rig slot]
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Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1014
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 10:24:00 -
[38] - Quote
med reps are fine, lrn2resists. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
259
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 10:38:00 -
[39] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:med reps are fine, lrn2resists.
Myrmidon (Corpum A-Type MAR , 2x Armor Explosive Hardener, 1x Armor Kinetic Hardener, 1x Armor Thermic hardener, 1x Armor EM Hardener, 2x T2 Nano Pump, 1x T1 Nano Pump): 428,2 hp/s omni
Cyclone (X-Large Shield Booster II, 2x Invul, 1x EM Ward Field): 524,2 hp/s omni
Cyclone (X-Large ASB, 2x Invul, 1x EM Ward Field): 1070,3 hp/s omni |
Klown Walk
New Eden Renegades Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
159
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 12:24:00 -
[40] - Quote
Active shield tanking is not really any better than armor tanking. Normal shield boosting isn't good enough without implants and links, ASB works somewhat but it's very limited and you have to use more than one or an oversized booster on most ships. |
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
259
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 12:33:00 -
[41] - Quote
Klown Walk wrote:Active shield tanking is not really any better than armor tanking. Normal shield boosting isn't good enough without implants and links, ASB works somewhat but it's very limited and you have to use more than one or an oversized booster on most ships.
Yeah, Myrmidon with Large Armor Repairer has best active tank in the game: 144,9 hp/s Most worrying is the fact that T2 LAR actually fits with 3% PG implant and "few" billion in officer mods.
[Myrmidon, Myrmidon fit]
Large Armor Repairer II Draclira's Modified Power Diagnostic System Draclira's Modified Power Diagnostic System Draclira's Modified Power Diagnostic System Draclira's Modified Power Diagnostic System Draclira's Modified Power Diagnostic System
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I J5 Prototype Warp Disruptor I Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 400
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M Heavy Ion Blaster II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Ancillary Current Router II Medium Ancillary Current Router I
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Paikis
Vapour Holdings
371
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 12:44:00 -
[42] - Quote
What are you smoking, and why aren't you passing the pipe? |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
259
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 12:56:00 -
[43] - Quote
Paikis wrote:What are you smoking, and why aren't you passing the pipe?
Can you prove Myrmidon has enough powergrid to fit guns, MWD, T2 LAR without using officer PDSs?
Medium sized armor repairers and shield boosters are frigate modules after all. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
371
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 13:26:00 -
[44] - Quote
Jorma Morkkis wrote:Paikis wrote:What are you smoking, and why aren't you passing the pipe? Can you prove Myrmidon has enough powergrid to fit guns, MWD, T2 LAR without using officer PDSs? Medium sized armor repairers and shield boosters are frigate modules after all.
Why would I want to do that? |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
259
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 13:35:00 -
[45] - Quote
Paikis wrote:Jorma Morkkis wrote:Paikis wrote:What are you smoking, and why aren't you passing the pipe? Can you prove Myrmidon has enough powergrid to fit guns, MWD, T2 LAR without using officer PDSs? Medium sized armor repairers and shield boosters are frigate modules after all. Why would I want to do that?
Then show us pvp Sleipnir with Medium Shield Booster II. |
Voi Lutois
The Tough Guys Rolling Safe
18
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Posted - 2012.12.25 13:45:00 -
[46] - Quote
what the **** is going on here? |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
8
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Posted - 2012.12.25 13:53:00 -
[47] - Quote
just take look at some numbers:
Tengu with Large SB, pve config: ~400ehp/s Tengu with pith-c-type Large SB, pure rep-setup for c3 sites: ~1200ehp/s at 60% cap ^ this tengu with vulture-links, LG crystals and standard blue-pill: ~ 3800ehp/s at 60% cap
100MN Tengu with Large SB: ~350ehp/s or ~1000ehp/s with links
this an obscene shield tanker with a broken subsystem, so let's go down to the cyclone... Cyclone with Large SB, cap-injected: ~340ehp/s ^ same with links etc. like tengu: ~ 900ehp/s
Now over to armorships:
Legion with TWO c-type reppers: ~500 ehp/s ^ same with damnation, exile, etc: ~1400ehp/s
Myrmidon with THREE MAR2s: ~480 ehp/s ^ same with all the **** in this world: ~1400ehp/s
so congratulations, you need to fill a couple slots with active modules to reach the effectiveness of a single Shield Booster. Not only is the overall repair amount a bit slower, but also the reaction times are quite NOT similiar. 2-4 seconds for a shieldbooster against 6-10 seconds for a armor repairer.
I think the only point speaking in favor of the active armor tanker is the fact that he can easily fit a lot of tackle. Also the fact that my Fleet stabber has to overload both armor reps to tank only the guns of a cynabal is a bit pathetic.
So yes, someone who really understands the game mechanics (like a dev or so) should draw conclusions about active tanking. Right now you either have links or you don't active tank. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
259
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 13:54:00 -
[48] - Quote
Voi Lutois wrote:what the **** is going on here?
Caldari pilots think shield tanking is superior and it should stay like that. |
Pinaculus
Aliastra Gallente Federation
157
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 16:17:00 -
[49] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote: So yes, someone who really understands the game mechanics (like a dev or so) should draw conclusions about active tanking. Right now you either have links or you don't active tank.
Gosh, it's almost like CCP is encouraging us to have extra accounts for no good reason. But, they wouldn't do that! Would they?
Power of 2.... I know sometimes it's difficult to realize just how much you spend on incidental things each month or year, but seriously, EVE is very cheap entertainment compared to most things... If you are a smoker, smoke one less pack a week and pay for EVE, with money left over to pick up a cheap bundle of flowers for the EVE widow upstairs. |
Mizhir
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1624
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 20:34:00 -
[50] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote: So yes, someone who really understands the game mechanics (like a dev or so) should draw conclusions about active tanking. Right now you either have links or you don't active tank.
And that's the biggest problem with active tanking.
If you are having Smurf problems I feel bad for you son I got 99 problems but a Blue aint one. |
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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
348
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 21:25:00 -
[51] - Quote
Vixorz wrote:This thread was about active armor tank and you guys derailed it completely.
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400 Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
This tells me that your fitting isn't cap stable. Relying on booster charges is fine and dandy for PvP, because PvP fights are short. For PvE mission running it doesn't cut it all because PvE battles drag on. For those you need cap-stable constant armor repair... which is hard enough when using projectile weapons... now try doing it a cap-sucking Amarr ship for extra laughs.
Vixorz wrote:Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II Medium Armor Repairer II
And does this repair 400 per cycle or 400 per second? Because the shield tank version is healing 400 per second and requires no capacitor at all.
EvE Forum Bingo |
Vixorz
Lynx Armada
43
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 21:34:00 -
[52] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
This tells me that your fitting isn't cap stable. Relying on booster charges is fine and dandy for PvP, because PvP fights are short. For PvE mission running it doesn't cut it all because PvE battles drag on. For those you need cap-stable constant armor repair... which is hard enough when using projectile weapons... now try doing it a cap-sucking Amarr ship for extra laughs.
...
And does this repair 400 per cycle or 400 per second? Because the shield tank version is healing 400 per second and requires no capacitor at all.
Read my post again and this time click on the links, please. |
kessah
Machin Missions
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 23:11:00 -
[53] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:considering the amount of armor cruisers have the medium reppers rep hardly anything, the myrm need THREE with a bonus to actually make a difference compared to a cyclones oversized boost bonused shield booster. (and ofc you cant oversize an armor rep)
will there be any love for armor reps?
I know that name Good to see a familiar face.
I used 3 medium armour repairers in the old days, at least on the Myrmidon\Hyperion, didn't worry much about the tank of them then bud. Think it topped out at 2600-2700 dps on the Hyperion :)
You are probably right though, active tank 4tw :) |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
5630
|
Posted - 2012.12.25 23:57:00 -
[54] - Quote
100M ISK Prize to the first person to link a functionally identical thread to this which was started in 2009. MatrixSkye Mk2: "Remember: You consent to unconsensual PVP the moment you press the "Undock" button." |
Cambarus
Aliastra Gallente Federation
236
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 00:47:00 -
[55] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:100M ISK Prize to the first person to link a functionally identical thread to this which was started in 2009. I would be genuinely shocked if 2009 was the first time this type of thread popped up. |
kessah
Machin Missions
5
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 01:16:00 -
[56] - Quote
Cambarus wrote:Malcanis wrote:100M ISK Prize to the first person to link a functionally identical thread to this which was started in 2009. I would be genuinely shocked if 2009 was the first time this type of thread popped up.
My cache is out of date, but I definitely could otherwise. |
Freyya
Thunderbears Jovian Empire
43
|
Posted - 2012.12.26 21:16:00 -
[57] - Quote
Ok want to know the single biggest reason why active armor tank sucks? I could be off as it was in a galaxy far far away from this one so plz correct me of you happen to remember it more accuratly...
In (iirc) 2007/8 CCP wanted fights to last longer as to give a lone ratter time for his friends to show up and to improve general epic micky feel of pvp.
As such they, in all their wisdom, decided the best way to do this was by doubling or in some cases even almost tripple the hp numbers on all ships. This was offcourse the slippery slope that made buffer tanking mainstream and promoted blob warfare more than ever before. More hp on your target means indeed more time for his Friends to show up. Thus the easiest solution was to bring more firepower on your roams to cut down that survival time. Now again ccp,in all their wisdom, didnt deem it neccesary to improve the rep amount on active tanking mods to go with the hp boost. Getting blobbed and having the same old rep amount against your new awesome hp numbers ofcourse made you fail misserably. It hasnt been fixed ever since. Search for Farjung video's on YouTube if you never saw what kind of nasty pain an active tanked vindicator could do (provided the pilot knew what the hell he was doing).
Medium ships and mods suffer from this the most since those ships got the biggest % in hp boost iirc.
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Katsumi Eto
U2EZ
0
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 01:03:00 -
[58] - Quote
Lloyd Roses wrote:just take look at some numbers:
Tengu with Large SB, pve config: ~400ehp/s Tengu with pith-c-type Large SB, pure rep-setup for c3 sites: ~1200ehp/s at 60% cap ^ this tengu with vulture-links, LG crystals and standard blue-pill: ~ 3800ehp/s at 60% cap
100MN Tengu with Large SB: ~350ehp/s or ~1000ehp/s with links
this an obscene shield tanker with a broken subsystem, so let's go down to the cyclone... Cyclone with Large SB, cap-injected: ~340ehp/s ^ same with links etc. like tengu: ~ 900ehp/s
Now over to armorships:
Legion with TWO c-type reppers: ~500 ehp/s ^ same with damnation, exile, etc: ~1400ehp/s
Myrmidon with THREE MAR2s: ~480 ehp/s ^ same with all the **** in this world: ~1400ehp/s
so congratulations, you need to fill a couple slots with active modules to reach the effectiveness of a single Shield Booster. Not only is the overall repair amount a bit slower, but also the reaction times are quite NOT similiar. 2-4 seconds for a shieldbooster against 6-10 seconds for a armor repairer.
I think the only point speaking in favor of the active armor tanker is the fact that he can easily fit a lot of tackle. Also the fact that my Fleet stabber has to overload both armor reps to tank only the guns of a cynabal is a bit pathetic.
So yes, someone who really understands the game mechanics (like a dev or so) should draw conclusions about active tanking. Right now you either have links or you don't active tank. Yes, it's very easy to come out and list why shield tanking is better in terms of active fits but it's also VERY EASY to forget that armor leaves shield tanking in the dust when it comes to buffer and EHP. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
673
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 13:06:00 -
[59] - Quote
we are getting a little off topic, yes a myrm works with reps, multiples of them, with its bonus.
everything else armor based with medium reps SUCKS, thats the point.
also remember the myrm can fit 3 because it actually has the spare grid, other ships do not. http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4375/mynewsig2.jpg |
Deerin
Murientor Tribe Defiant Legacy
40
|
Posted - 2012.12.27 15:45:00 -
[60] - Quote
to put things into perspective:
800mm t2 plate = 2400 Armor
t2 MAR = 352 Armor over 7.65 secs (OH) = 46 Armor/ second
2400/46 = 52 seconds.
So a MAR pays itself in 52 seconds and every cycle you get after it is a bonus. Should be ok in a small gang cruiser fight.
....No you don't get to compare it to 1600mm's if you are complaining about oversized booster on a cyclone.
IMO the real bad thing about active armor tanking is the rigs! The speed penalty should be removed from active tanking rigs....and halved at resist rigs.
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