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The Solution to the Instant Jump BM problem. (Round 2)

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Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.01 12:03:00 - [1] Edited by: Derisor on 01/06/2005 12:25:59 Updated June 1st to reflect clarifications and suggestions in the old thread. As I can not edit the other post for some reason, I posted an update thread. First of all, if you dont plan to read the ENTIRE first two posts before replying then please dont reply. If you dont read the whole post you will most likely get completely the wrong idea. Issues are simple. The instas are overloading the servers. Furthermore, with the proliferation of instas and the ease to get them, the universe is essentially run on instas anyway if you are in any decent corp. So much so that buying and selling them isnt valid anymore. Another issues is the ability to stop players and blocade gates to hold systems or execute blocades. Instas render that impossible (not just for gankers but also corps). At the same time travel in eve definitely doesnt need to be slowed down further and those that wish to avoid blocades should be able to if the blocaders arent prepared (ganking should be a team sport). Solution is to employ the following changes to the game. Please read all changes before replying: 1) Prohibit marking anywhere within 500km of a gate or station. 2) Change the warp range so that you can warp anywhere from 5km and up towards the gate or station. This change should allow you to warp any distance up 5km. So you should be able to warp withing 300km. This will allow people to recon gates before going there. Note that if you warped to within 300km you would pop out randomly 300km away (imagine a sphere at 300km from the gate, you could come out anywhere on that sphere). Its better if you come out anywhere within your set range to warp to the for server lag reasons as well as ganking reasons. If you didnt, some pirate could merely sit at 300km in line with the gate from another gate and simply gank you. This would require the introduction of new BMs to solve that problem and then we are back where we started. 3) Autopilot should jump you as close to the gate as you can jump given skills and modules. 4) Fix warp bubbles to work and change their range slightly; a 5km warp bubble is nearly useless. Also add a tech 2 warp bubble. Allow the controller of the warp bubble to give warping rights to a certain player. This will bring back ransom piracy instead of gankdom. In addition make it so that the bubble stops players INSIDE the bubble and not just on its surface. 5) Create standing oriented warp bubbles that will stop players only of a certain standing. 6) Create a module that can be put in a logistics cruiser or logistics battleship (new ship) that will be a mobile warp bubble. Create "mobile warp bubble" skill that will be above propulsion jamming to operate this module. The module should basically render the ship useless to fighting. It should consume a ton of power grid or CPU or both. It would require dedicated driver. The idea here is a fleet that jumps into another fleet and warp scrambles the whole fleet with the logistics ship. They need to blow the logistics cruiser or logistics BS to warp away. 7) Change the undock distance from the station to 15km so that people cant undock and redock and so on. They should have to get help to break a blocade, not simply keep going out taking potshots and redocking or pulling BS to try to get someone CONCORD killed. ... continued in reply ....
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.01 12:18:00 - [2] ... continued ... 8) Move implementation of bookmarks client side with a digital signature on each BM and linked to the player's key (each char would have his own generated key kept private on the server). This will prevent tradign bookmarks out of game. (or at least make it very hard). However, BMs will still be tradable within the game. 9) Introduce a navigation skill that allows the player to Improve jump accuracy by 10% per skill level. At level 5 you would be jumping to within 2.5km. 10) Introduce a mid slot propulstion module that increases jump accuracy by up to 20% (4% per level of a new "Warp Navigation" skill). An appropriately traned and fitted person should instajump unless bubbled. Stacking this module should be possible as it takes away mid slots so it should be balanced by near 0 ship effectiveness in combat. 11) Introduce a gang warping accuracy skill with the same effect as the personal skill but under leadership. 12) Introduce a bookmark copying paradigm similiar to blueprints. A player goes out to a location and marks it (perhaps he needs a module on his ship and a skill?). When the player marks the BM, he gets a BMO (Bookmark Original). When he copys the bookmark for a friend or client, he gets a BMC (Bookmark Copy). The copy can not be copied yet again. This will further enhance bookmarks to be a comodity. 13) Introduce the ability to store several bookmarks on a data chip (BMDC) and trade them that way instead of individual BMs in the cargo hold. 14)Another idea open for discussion is to have the BMCs loaded into the navicomputer of the player's ship. You get a data chip and install the bookmark into the computee via a new slot in the ship-ui. Then if the ship gets blown up that data chip has a chance to get blown up like all the other modules. So ends my suggestion list. These changes would solve all of the problems, allow for faster travel in Eve and put the business of sellign bookmarks for rare ore/rats, etc back in business. It would also be ok for miners who want to BM their roids or cans. It would preserve safe spots as well. It does NOT solve the problem of -10 sec status safely traveling in empire but then they werent supposed to be able to do that anyway. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.01 12:22:00 - [3] .. for later use .. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.01 15:13:00 - [4] Originally by: DeODokktor do you want to trust ccp coding all of that stuff you mention'd :) or have them make 1 change that can receive modification by factors that are currently in the game ;).. Well there is a very derogatory thing to say. Comparing them to other MMOGs, I think the quality of their code is quite good. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.02 00:35:00 - [5] Edited by: Derisor on 02/06/2005 00:36:54 Originally by: SpeedoMan There's nothing wrong with BMs. Leave them in-game :P PS - stop making 2 threads for the same topic just to see your name spammed on the forum. There is something wrong with them as CCP says. Not only that but they are superfluous. Perhaps if you read the post rather than posting a one liner quip based off the topic you would know the deal. You might even know why the second thread was posted. Its not that hard to read and its not that long. On the other hand if you cant handle reading people's post then you should not reply. And I surely dont need to "see your name spammed on the forum." I have a greal life and wife and job. Im a happy person that plays this game for entertainment and your personal opinion of me is about as important to me as an ant on the street. I post to try to improve the game; I wonder what your motivation is? --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.03 11:37:00 - [6] Originally by: Rick Dentill "In addition make it so that the bubble stops players INSIDE the bubble and not just on its surface." Hi mate, its coming together well now, only one question to clarify. I am confused by the above line. Is this to stop ships getting out from inside the bubble? or to make ship arrive inside the bubble. Sorry i am kind tired and my cognitions are plain not computing atm. Both. But when you use a bubble to stop people, you want them still scrambled, not sitting on the surface able to do a 180 and warp away. 2 km inside the bubble should be sufficient but it should probably dependeon the momentum of the ship. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.03 11:52:00 - [7] Originally by: SpeedoMan Right now? To get you to shut up and stop whining about how BMs are ruining your life, making you flaccid, forcing your wife to hump the neighbor and giving your dog worms. Ya ... that is within the forum rules Im sure ... Im sure. Never an ISD around when you need one. Definitely need a report post button. Perhaps you should actually READ the original posts? Novel idea I know. Read without flaming opbscentiies first?!?!?!! What an IDEA!!! --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.06 10:01:00 - [8] Originally by: Beta Vixen missing element in the above: taking a while to make a transit [run a gate] is tolerable, what I find intolerable is that I can't retaliate against the gankers. Vengence, or the ability to declare blood feud, is my suggested solution. Let the gankers try to kill my ship near the gates. But if they do, let me declare blood feud and come back later with my mates ... and us be free of the CONCORD anti-aggression rules. Any tactic you can use, they can also use. THey can blood fued you and then be immune to concord rules. You MUST consider both sides of the equation when making suggestions. Originally by: Beta Vixen {In corporate wars and zero space fleet battles, this would have no effect. Why bother to declare feud if you can already fire away without CONCORD hindrance?} This one change would balance ganking with risk. Where's the risk in piracy today? The jammed sentry guns? Battleships sniping from 125 km take no risk at all. Sure they do ... namely Virii, Foundation and other alliances and corps that love to run a covops nest to them, warp in and drop right on top of them and kill them. The secret to flying in lowsec and 0.0 is intel. Also remember that a BS set up for sniping is not going to be able to warp jam you. Therefore get some inertial gear that will help you jump into warp faster. If running something really valuable, use a frigate. They can often leap into warp before the bad guy can even lock you. A tristan with 2 nanofibers and an overdrive in lows can leap out into warp quite quick. This is a blockade running ship designed to get into warp fast. It wont be able to fight worth a damn but it can run anything but a concerted right on top of the gate camp. But if you run into one of those you are in a 0.0 and the whole ballgame is different. Oh and ALWAYS use instas to gates until they replace them with something better. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.06 11:41:00 - [9] Please keep comments on this thread. Could a mod please lock the old thread. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.07 08:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Lyra Sy In response to Elroy's question, "Why block instas out so far from a target?", when I suggested a 500km range. Basically, if it isn't some huge number then players will still try to create instas for some gates. Exactly correct. Instas are needed and every player with experience has them so there is really no need to store them on the sever. Let all players insta without the bookmarks assuming they have the appropriate skills. This wont change travel one bit because everyone experienced already has them. However, if you dont prohibbit marking then people will make instas for observation of gates and we are back in the same problem. Reduced but not eliminated. With the variable warp distance and appearance on the sphere at random point on that warp distance, observation is possible without an insta. When taken as a package the suggestions I made remove the NEED for instas and the server load that goes with them without lengthening travel times or encouraging piracy more than it is now encouraged. At the same time pleayers can bookmark their cans, favorite belts, safe spots and so on. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.

Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.08 09:33:00 - [11] Another idea was for a module that would yank people out of warp but not prevent them from going back into warp. This could be deployable as well as be a module that would fit in a logistics cruiser. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.09 01:56:00 - [12] Originally by: Kal'Zakath Am I alone in thinking "What in the world do we pay you for if you cant keep/code a decent database server?" The solution is simple to me, take the money we give you every month, and fix your servers. If you dont like us giving you money every month then remove the bookmarks, I'm sure you would all like a nice pay cut when you see yoru player base drop from 10k people to 1k. Do the math, that's a big cut in pay......... Truly spoken like someone who doesnt know anything about programming, databases or any of the other issues but pretends they do. Data is data and storing 500 to 2000bms * 50k accounts is a significant amount of data. Not to mention sending them back and forth to the client and so on and so forth. So perhaps you should stop shooting flames at the devs until you at least know what the hell you are talkign about. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.10 09:32:00 - [13] Originally by: Rick Dentill Ah i gotya now I had no idea that the bubbles worked like that what happened to inertia? Well Eve doesnt use an authentic physics model anyway but that is beside the point. The problem is that bubbles will only keep people from going into warp, they wont pull you out of warp. They work sometimes but not all the time. Its basically hit and miss. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.12 10:02:00 - [14] Originally by: Maxine Stirner Some of your idea are worthwhile, such as ship-based bubbles for fleets to warp into one another but not warp away. All of your posted "fixes" are flawed however. They are bandaids on a problem which your solution leaves in the game. Originally by: Maxine Stirner -They increase reliance on battleships and still restrict campers to using snipe setups. How do you get this? How does the solutions posted have anything to do with battleship setups. Second of all, why do you regard battleship sniper setups as a problem with the game? Its a valid tactic with its own drawbacks. Not everythign that can kill you is invalid. Furthermore, the prolem of battleships killing everything and "biggest gun wins" has absolutely nothing to do with instas at all. If you disagree lets hear specific reasoning. Originally by: Maxine Stirner -They serve as an additional nerf to the functionality of frigates and cruisers.. smaller craft are supposed to be interecepting craft. There is no point to this mechanic when instalocking and turrets solve this instantaneously. Again you are comming out of left field. Instalocking has nothing to do with instajumping. Its totally and completely irrelevant. As for frigates and cruisers, the frigates have roles in the game usually as tacklers, scouts, harassment, etc. Cruisers are a tad gimped I admit. However, this has little to nothing to do with the idea of instajumps. You are comming out of the proverbial left field here. Originally by: Maxine Stirner -It keeps the most experienced and valuable targets, those with SP, in a state of general immunity. It discourages people with lesser skills from even participating. Why ? Give reasons. Dotn make generalities and advertise them as fact. This statement is nothing more than your opinion. One that happens to be wrong. How many SP does the 3 year old player use when flying a frig? Yes, that is the same amount of SP that the 2 month old character uses. I am new to pvp in this game and have far less SP than many of my corp mates but I still manage to participate and make a difference. The other day I killed a 20 million isk interceptor with my little destroyer that was set up in a way that every 1 month old char could do. Originally by: Maxine Stirner -Signature responsive bubbles will only encourage cowardly tactics of staying out of range and retreating when something aggressive approaches. Range should be reduced and bubbles should affect the entire sphere of operation and only for warping out. Only impulse mechanics of ships should matter after that for survival, and adjustments thereof. In the same way would could have 100km warp disruptors, but we need better, more strategic battlefield mechanics of spd/turret range. Why would they encourage "cowardly tactics" ? Because the enemy isnt fighting on your terms ? shrug Thats the way life is. They arent going to fit so that you can counter them just for your edification. They are trying to destroy your yout ship, not play cards. If you let them dictate terms of the encounter then you loose. This is called tactics. Warp bubbles would cause fleet battles to be less warp in, blow 2 ships and warp out but become more decisive engagements where people have to destroy the other fleet to survive. This would be a good thing for the game on multiple levels. Originally by: Maxine Stirner -Gang skills would give immunity to the larger, more worthy target. It would increase the "downtime" of blobs. Again, more assertions with 0 evidence or supporting arguments. Originally by: Maxine Stirner -None of your solutions answer the fundamental maladies of the travel pathophysiology. They only treat the symptoms. EVE needs an immunization, not cough syrup. Uhh ... pathophysiology describes symptoms, not causes. That aside, my suggestions were not designed to create world peace, solve hunger and feed the poor. They were designed for a specific goal and that goal is to remove the load of instas and promote a more interractive less artificial combat environment. If you have specific problems with them then lets hear them, not the vague and unsubstantiated generalities you have posted. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.15 10:03:00 - [15] What? No reply? --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.16 13:49:00 - [16] Ajunta, you are right but dont go far enough. Teleportation has potential to destroy the entire game. The entire game would fall to pieces. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.06.17 13:59:00 - [17] This thread has absolutely nothing to do with piracy. Anyone who knows my corp can attest to the fact that we are anti-piracy. It has to do with solving a number of problems in the current game. You may yell at me that they arent a problem but before you start hurling objects, realizze that the people saying that they are a problem are the developers of the game. These people are the ones that truly know the intent and issues iwth the game and so I trust them over any other player (within limits of course). The fact is that this solution will presever travel time in eve while giveing players tools to use to stop you. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. If Eve was safe, it would be booring and all your precious market would evaporate like steam. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.11 10:07:00 - [18] Originally by: Wyke Mossari Originally by: Ajunta LEE add the warp innacuracy to it and you have a very plain and simple system to explain to newbies isn t it obvious that things drift in space --- snipped --- in fact it is the objetcs that are chaoticaly deterministically drifting but the fact the nav com neglect that chaotic part of the equation causes the diffrence. This is actually well established problem in real newtonian physics, where it's known as the three body problem. The interations of gravity between 2 bodies is pretty understood. However as soon as you introduce a third ( or fourth or fifth ... body) the problem rapidly become intractable. Throwing more computing power at the problem is a linear solution to an exponential more difficult calculation. http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=three+body+problem&btnG=Google+Search&meta= Since we are getting technical, why wouldnt the gate have a subspace quantum beacon relaying its exact coordinates. Then you wouldnt have to compute anything. Such a beacon is well established in the LORAN technology used by aircraft today. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.11 10:10:00 - [19] Originally by: Russo Hows about this...Whenever you are warping to a gate you have the options to warp in at varying ranges...the closer you anna warp to the gate the longer it takes to align so you dont run into the damn thing on exit. So if you wanna warp to it at 100km, once you reach your warp velocity you will warp off in 1 second....if you want to come out of warp 5km away from it, then you need to spend like 15 seconds aligned, at warp entry velocity... this way you still get your near insta jump, but at a cost of time. it would erase the need for bookmarks, and put patience as the only requirement. this would make it possible to nail people who were trying to align for that perfect warp and add some risk to attempting it once you enter a hostile system. you could throw in some skills or modules to make the delay for precision warps shorter, and it still wouldnt have any need for bookmarks. just thought this up a minute ago, im sure it needs some work, but I think its a solid idea to start with. 15 seconds is death in 0.0. Sudden and extremely violent death. Its really a bloody eternity. All current ships but the most slow can crawl up to the gate in 15 seconds. it would simply remove bookmarks without any compensation and lose a lot of customers. I encorage you to read the original suggestions. You might even like them. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.11 15:07:00 - [20] Your "simple" solution would cause the loss of thousands of customers, me included. If the topic is such a dead horse then why is it foremost in the minds of the devs. They want to solve this situation WITHOUT losing customers. As for the beacons either you knew exactly what I was talking about and was just trying to be a jerk (successfully at least) or you are an idiot. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.

Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.12 15:09:00 - [21] I am unclear how the solutions I originally proposed would cause a loss of customers. Perhaps you can point it out for me in detail ? --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.

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