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Amelia Torez
Tolero Guard
34
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Posted - 2012.12.29 20:58:00 -
[1] - Quote
Firstly, let me just say I think we've been had some really constructive discussions about this topic recently and there have been great points from both sides about how this problem can be addressed. A special mention to ISD and CCP who have done an excellent job remaining neutral and attempting to keep the forums clear of trolling.
For those that missed it, we recently had a discussion here about certain times when AFK mining can help expand the gameplay of many users.
I thought it might be worth doing some further investigation into the "bot" conspiracy as a whole.
Sometimes, when participating in a battle of ideals itGÇÖs important try and remove emotion from your thoughts and try to think logically about what it is you are actually fighting for. ItGÇÖs important to jump to the other side of the fence and try and understand things from another perspective.
The eradication of bots is certainly a noble cause and one I would gladly support, I mean GÇô who wouldn't?
But before swearing blind loyalty to a cause, fitting out a catalyst and suicide ganking a 4 week old player unable to fly anything more tanked than a retriever, itGÇÖs important to have a look at the facts.
How much time is required?
Firstly, at my latest count there are around 125 readily available locations to mine various kind of ice in. To completely eradicate bots, these will need to be actively monitored 23/7. This would equate to 20,125 hours per week that will need to be dedicated to patrolling these sectors.
In the studies I have been conducting so far, it seems those willing to patrol these systems spend around 3-4 hours per week roughly. (I completely acknowledge this is an estimate and also that there are many who dedicate more and many who dedicate less hours.)
However, on this estimation, that would mean over 5,000 active players are needed at any given moment to ensure each ice belt is actively monitored. ItGÇÖs no secret that movements established to attempt to GÇ£eradicateGÇ¥ bots have garnered some support GÇô but I think itGÇÖs safe to say not to the level of 5,000 active players per week participating.
What kind of impact are the (current) small scale operations having on the market?
When you get down to it GÇô people can lie, propaganda can lie, blogs (lo and behold) can lie. But the one thing that cannot is raw numbers.
The promise that bumping miners out of range will create a GÇ£better future for allGÇ¥ by GÇ£removing bots from the gameGÇ¥ and subsequently increase the price of token products like ice really needs to be backed up by numbers. Various operations have been in effect long enough now that we should already be seeing results. However, a quick look at Jita reveals that not to be the case. As the graphs here, here and here illustrate.
Since the movement to GÇ£bumpGÇ¥ miners out of range has begun GÇô there has been absolutely no upwards pressure on the price of ice. (aside from a few market variations, which is completely normal).
In fact, over all there has been quite a dramatic net decrease in the price of ice.
But letGÇÖs speak hypothetically here and say it does start to have an impact on the price of ice in the future and starts to push it upwards. Even then, as weGÇÖve mentioned above GÇô itGÇÖs going to be almost impossible to mobilise 5,000 willing, active and able players to monitor the ice fields which means if there are people out there unethically making ISK, then their profits will skyrocket.
How will the so called GÇ£botsGÇ¥ adapt?
Once again, letGÇÖs look at a hypothetical situation where the movement is able to garner 5,000 active players to assist in the eradication of bots. Will that spell the end of non player farming?
Absolutely not. Due to the nature of the game, Eve is a rather difficult game to create a bot for (IGÇÖm not saying itGÇÖs impossible) Not to deduce that there arenGÇÖt purely script driven bots out there but even so, the constant risk of losing ships, downtime, depletion of asteroids. incursions etc make mining a task that requires at least some involvement, some of the time by a human being.
Further to that, having a read through this article here shows that even if there were bots & they were all eradicated by the simple inconvenience of being GÇ£bumpedGÇ¥ slightly out of range it wouldn't solve the problem. That article lists one location, where 300 prisoners were forced to play games and raked in around $1,000 USD a day selling the proceeds. Even if you take the prisoner component out of it and incorporate a bunch of game clients running at the same time GÇô that formula is easy to replicate, turn a profit as a functioning business while still paying staff and overheads. (Do a quick Google search for websites offering staff willing to work for around $3USD a day and you will see how easy it is to implement).
Want to know the most interesting thing about having those staff members? Paying 10 mil to keep a pirate at pay or updating a line in their bio to continue their mining undisturbed is a small price to price to allow their GÇ£businessGÇ¥ to operate like normal. (Even if further preventive measures are taken in the future such as continued bumping to ensure their activity, itGÇÖs not difficult to ALT + TAB between 10-15 different screens to constantly keep an eye on local. If you donGÇÖt believe that is possible, ask James315 how many alts he is able to keep going at one time. You m...
www.ToleroGuard.com |
Amelia Torez
Tolero Guard
34
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Posted - 2012.12.29 20:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
In summary, what we have is the following.
- It will not be possible to mobilise 5,000 active players to regularly patrol all ice fields.
- Hypothetically speaking, even if it was GÇô that would still not eliminate a low cost equivalent of botting that requires little capital and huge profits.
- ItGÇÖs clear that current actions are having little to no impact on the market.
- IGÇÖll let you make your own mind up whether any scheme requesting investment to continue this charade will actually have any of the outcomes it promises GÇô or whether itGÇÖs simply a profit making venture.
www.ToleroGuard.com |
Komotz Seeing
Shadow Knight's
1
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Posted - 2012.12.29 21:03:00 -
[3] - Quote
Quote:This would equate to 20,125 hours per week that will need to be dedicated to patrolling these sectors.
Stopped reading when I got to that, fix this math and I'll finish reading.
23*7=/=20,125hr's
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Amelia Torez
Tolero Guard
34
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Posted - 2012.12.29 21:07:00 -
[4] - Quote
Komotz Seeing wrote:Quote:This would equate to 20,125 hours per week that will need to be dedicated to patrolling these sectors. Stopped reading when I got to that, fix this math and I'll finish reading. 23*7=/=20,125hr's
Thanks for your comment.
But by my calculator, we've got the following...
23 x 7 = 161 (roughly the number of hours Eve is up per week).
161 x 125 = 20,125 (the number of ice fields x the number of hours eve is up per week.)
www.ToleroGuard.com |
Murk Paradox
Dvice Shipyards
No Value
160
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Posted - 2012.12.29 21:08:00 -
[5] - Quote
Interactive gameplay > profit.
Period.
Figure that into your calculations.
"I say tomato, you say tomaCCP BAN ALL TOMATOES THEY ARE HARASSING ME I WANT TOMATO FREE HIGHSEC."-á
-TheGunslinger42
Proud enforcer of the Code, see [url]http://www.minerbumping.com[/url] for details. |
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
827
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Posted - 2012.12.29 21:25:00 -
[6] - Quote
Komotz Seeing wrote:Quote:This would equate to 20,125 hours per week that will need to be dedicated to patrolling these sectors. Stopped reading when I got to that, fix this math and I'll finish reading. 23*7=/=20,125hr's You can't multiply it by the amount of ice fields if its being patrolled at the same time, especially when the amount that comes out is more hours then there are in a year.
You can, and you do, and not only that, but by how many people are required. In any business, the time it takes to do a task might be 4 hours. If it takes 4 hours with one person, than it's only 4 hours that you have to pay that person for. However, if it takes two people four hours, than you have to dish out 8 hours worth of pay. 4 people to do 4 hours = 16 hours of pay. This is referred to as "man hours", so if she hasn't factored this in, I think you'll find that the number of hours dedicated to patrolling would actually be much, much higher. Factor in the cost of ships etc....
The math is only flawed in that it's probably an underestimation of the required "man hours" to keep it up.
You don't scare me. I've been to Jita. |
Liam Inkuras
Chaotic Tranquility
Casoff
75
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Posted - 2012.12.29 21:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gank them all! |
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Operations
3191
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Posted - 2012.12.29 21:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
I'll definitely vouch for the decrease in Ice Product prices. That includes decreases in all 4 Fuel Block prices as well.
So unprofitable it's yet another area of manufacturing I've given up on now. In fact, I'm doing none at all now.
I'm honestly making more money mining grav sites and the occasional mission running, and that's it.
Honestly, the game is getting pretty boring with lack of a variety of descent profit making opportunities. I'm spending a lot more time in Civilization these days...and other games
Maybe I should try Market scamming or something, but that's just not me.
Only the shallow can fully know themselves. - Oscar Wilde |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
215
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Posted - 2012.12.29 22:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Amelia Torez wrote:But before swearing blind loyalty to a cause, fitting out a catalyst and suicide ganking a 4 week old player unable to fly anything more tanked than a retriever, itGÇÖs important to have a look at the facts.
Facts? You have no clue, that's fact.
It takes only about 10 days to train for a fully functional T2 shield tank. That's a fact.
With that you get a very decent battlecruiser size tank out of a properly fit procurer and it's even lots cheaper than a retriever.
THAT is the right thing a newbie should be in, until he has learned situational awareness in EVE. |
Kainotomiu Ronuken
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
534
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Posted - 2012.12.29 22:08:00 -
[10] - Quote
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:You made the largest wall of text I've bothered to actually read on these Forums in 3 years because I could tell immediately it was true discourse and not the typical propaganda. 3 years of prop gets old, got old, is old. And one can spot it like flatulence in a room, immediately.
Sorry, but how is this not propaganda? It's pretty clearly anti-New Order propaganda, in much the same way that any post by us is pro-New Order propaganda.
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Mistah Ewedynao
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
312
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Posted - 2012.12.29 22:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Mara Pahrdi wrote:Amelia Torez wrote:But before swearing blind loyalty to a cause, fitting out a catalyst and suicide ganking a 4 week old player unable to fly anything more tanked than a retriever, itGÇÖs important to have a look at the facts.
Facts? You hav no clue, that's fact. It takes only about 10 days to train for a fully functional T2 shield tank. That's a fact. With that you get a very decent battlecruiser size tank out of a properly fit procurer and it's even lots cheaper than a retriever. THAT is the right thing a newbie should be in, until he has learned situational awareness in EVE.
Gotta agree with that part. Training a combat alt I have for Mining cause I need the mins. His Procuror has over 50K ehp.
What's that take.... 3 or 4 Talos to Alpha??? |
Ginger Barbarella
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
1032
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Posted - 2012.12.29 23:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
This weekend must be all about posting new threads about old topics.
Bumping isn't about bots, and only a troll would suggest it was.
Use the search function next time before wasting bandwidth.
Fly Minmatar Air --- "Trust in the Rust!" |
Zaraz Zaraz
Imperial Planetology Academy
63
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Posted - 2012.12.30 00:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
People don't bump miners to disrupt bots. They do it to annoy PEOPLE.
You can't annoy a bot so really they aren't interesting to many players. People on the other hand, and annoying them, is what this game is all about.
I don't think you realise how important screwing with other people is to many players of this game...
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Lexmana
774
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Posted - 2012.12.30 01:07:00 -
[14] - Quote
Why are we discussing this issue if it has no impact? |
Jonah Gravenstein
Holistic Materials Research Council
4759
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Posted - 2012.12.30 01:14:00 -
[15] - Quote
Zaraz Zaraz wrote:People don't bump miners to disrupt bots. They do it to annoy PEOPLE.
You can't annoy a bot so really they aren't interesting to many players. People on the other hand, and annoying them, is what this game is all about.
I don't think you realise how important screwing with other people is to many players of this game...
FTFY
Always bet on stupid, CCP can't patch stupid.
The measure of success in Eve is not monetary worth,
it's how effectively you can bend others to your will. |
Lin Suizei
30
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Posted - 2012.12.30 01:30:00 -
[16] - Quote
Amelia Torez wrote:Want to know the most interesting thing about having those staff members? Paying 10 mil to keep a pirate at pay or updating a line in their bio to continue their mining undisturbed is a small price to price to allow their GÇ£businessGÇ¥ to operate like normal.
This is exactly why people should pay 10M, follow the Code and continue to mine peacefully, instead of badposting.
Amelia Torez wrote:(Even if further preventive measures are taken in the future such as continued bumping to ensure their activity, itGÇÖs not difficult to ALT + TAB between 10-15 different screens to constantly keep an eye on local. If you donGÇÖt believe that is possible, ask James315 how many alts he is able to keep going at one time. You might be surprised).
But I thought we were all Goons...
Do your part for a better Highsec tomorrow - kill an AFK miner today! |
James 315
Experimental Fun Times Corp
3320
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Posted - 2012.12.30 01:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Amelia Torez wrote:(Even if further preventive measures are taken in the future such as continued bumping to ensure their activity, itGÇÖs not difficult to ALT + TAB between 10-15 different screens to constantly keep an eye on local. If you donGÇÖt believe that is possible, ask James315 how many alts he is able to keep going at one time. You might be surprised).
I don't know, I've never used more than one character at a time. I guess I'm the wrong person to ask. Anything else? 
-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ MinerBumping.com -½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½-½The daily saga of the New Order's quest to conquer all highsec by bumping miners out of range. |
Wescro
Knights of the New Order
Zantiu-Braun Alliance
37
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Posted - 2012.12.30 01:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
Amelia Torez wrote:
- It will not be possible to mobilise 5,000 active players to regularly patrol all ice fields.
How do you square this with what you said in your last post:
Amelia Torez wrote:
It may be worth considering GÇô those kinds of actions are encouraging new and casual players to rethink investing their free time and money on Eve and without those casual gamers, the Eve universe would fall apart.
Which one is it? Are miner bumpers ineffective and incapable or are they a real threat to the "eve universe." 
Why is it, that you don't apply your "they can't be everywhere logic" to your first post and realize that "casual players" always have a safe system to retreat to? In fact in my experience, the only people who we seem to run into again and again are people who follow us around, and it can be argued they do this because they enjoy taking us on. |
Cpt Roghie
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
66
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Posted - 2012.12.30 02:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Montiolio should blue them.
This could be fun. |
GreenSeed
131
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Posted - 2012.12.30 02:24:00 -
[20] - Quote
what the hell is the op talking about?
1mn perma mwding skiff is impossible to bump, and its also the ship of choice for botters...
thanks to CCP, players cant possibly do anything about botting, simply because you just CANT kill a ship that cruises around at 650+ms with 80k+ ehp.
oh, and that said.. bumpers do not care at all for bots, they are just having fun at your hardheaded expense... nothing more sad that ice miners taunting these morons on local and then getting their B type tanked macks ganked, when they should be flying skiffs... |
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baltec1
Bat Country
4573
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Posted - 2012.12.30 02:34:00 -
[21] - Quote
20 Bats managed to rid caldari ice belts of most bots in just three weeks of rampage and they were reletivly clear for several months untill CCP removed the only threat they faced in high sec. Your maths is a little off |
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ISD Cura Ursus
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
111
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Posted - 2012.12.30 02:44:00 -
[22] - Quote
Miner Bumping thread locked.
Please see: this
ISD Cura Ursus
Lieutenant
Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Interstellar Services Department |
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