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Derisor
   |
Posted - 2005.06.07 10:32:00 -
[1]
As I read the dev blog, Im happy that Oveur read my thread in the ideas forum. However, there seems to be an issue that is being missed by the devs in the discussion of instas. Well specifically there are 3 issues:
Oveur keeps saying that people without instas are in more danger than those with instas. This doesnt go far enough. Actually traveling in 0.0 without instas isnt just hard, its quasi suicide. Traveling in lowsec without instas is very dangerous but doing that in 0.0 is pretty much what we call "Clone Jumping".
In addition, you cant always fly with a fleet, as some have advocated. In fact, getting together and arranging a fleet is often a lengthy exercise. If you want to fly from egbinger to Yulai and have to get a fleet to do it every time, the game will slow down considerably.
The problems contributing to this are multifaceted. First of all, ganking is not a team sport now. Ganking in 0.4 - 0.1 isnt even especially dangerous. However, stopping gankers usually requires a massive and heavily involved fleet operation. One pirate can sit 150km off a gate in pure safety, sensor boosted and pick off passerbys. To get him you need at least one covops ship. Why? Because if you just fly up to him even with an inty, he will just warp off, possibly after taking out the would be teackler. You need to get people in there that can covops next to him and drop the fleet right on top of him. To counter that, pirates simply log if they get tackled.
So while considering the insta situation, you have to take this into account. If Im flying to yulai to get a sensor booster it is already dangerous enough WITH my instas. The simple reason that I dont have an insta warp on the other side of the gate makes it tough. However, there I only have the time duration of what it takes me to get into warp. I cant immagine the vulnerability of crawling up to a gate from 15km out in a battleship or industrial without instas.
Am I advocating for safe travel or removal of piracy? Hell no. That is one of the things that make the game fun. However I am also not advocating for making piracy an easy world to solo gank people without reprocussions in a target rich environment.
The solution to the instas issue and the "invulnerability" of travel isnt to slow down travel nor to essentially make us sitting ducks at gates. Its to put in more methods for TEAMS of people to stop other people. IE; making piracy and ganking a team sport, not something you can do by logging in 20 min with your sensor boosted raven and then farming battleships for sec status.
I enumerated my solutions in the thread I linked above so I wont do that again here. What I will say is that I encourage the devs to think of all sides of the equation and to tread carefully. To make it so that to gank you must work together with a team. Thighs like scramblers with longer range, warp bubbles, nav computers, nav computer disruptors should go in rather than slowing the whole pace of the game. I also encourage them to think about that 25 jump route through empire that is completely safe and whether they really want to turn that from a half hour operation to a 2 hour one.
It is my opinion and contention that Instas are not something that can be solved with a single change but rather they need a whole packet of changes to put in place all at once. The solutions to the insta problem should rely on reinforcing team play and giving players more options to rip someone out of warp and prevent them from going into warp, not to radically slow the pace of the whole game.
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
Andrue
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Posted - 2005.06.07 10:49:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Derisor
So while considering the insta situation, you have to take this into account. If Im flying to yulai to get a sensor booster it is already dangerous enough WITH my instas.
Huh? Are playing on a different shard to me? I'll grant that zipping around 0.0 without instas is risky but it's not suicidal. As for Empire, pfft! Maybe I operate in a particularly friendly area but I have never met an ore thief (once had some fool try and ransom a can of kernite but he never came back). I have never been ganked or even targetted when flying from there to Yulai/Niyabainen or anywhere else in Empire.
I regularly fly through 0.4 and 0.3 systems without a care in the world.
The insta discussion is tricky enough as it is without trying to present some weird vision of Empire travel as being dangerous. Or am I playing on a different shard? I genuinely see no risk in flying a hauler from..oh..Sarum Prime to Yulai. I use instas on the way out because it's a bit tedious but quite often I'll to the trip afk while preparing food or doing housework.
--
(Battle hardened miner)
[Brackley, UK]
WARNING:This post may contain large doses of reality. |
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.06.07 10:56:00 -
[3]
People seem to think 0.0 is all like HED-GP, U-Q, P3EN, EC-P and A2-.
It's not.
I fly nad have flown an industrial afk through 0.0 space regularly. The only danger is gate NPC's, and I've got my way of dealing with those as well.
So, for your first point, no, having no instas in 0.0 does not equal suicide, by far. It wholly depends on the area and it's current level of hostile activity. Something that's in your hands too, to an extent.
I do agree with aprt of your solutions, but for other reasons I guess.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Bhaal
|
Posted - 2005.06.07 11:01:00 -
[4]
Quote:
Huh? Are playing on a different shard to me? I'll grant that zipping around 0.0 without instas is risky but it's not suicidal. As for Empire, pfft! Maybe I operate in a particularly friendly area but I have never met an ore thief (once had some fool try and ransom a can of kernite but he never came back). I have never been ganked or even targetted when flying from there to Yulai/Niyabainen or anywhere else in Empire.
Well, Derisor is talking about the entry/exit to The Great Wildlands.
If you don't have insta's, you are pretty much dead, period... (once in a while you can get lucky & make it, but more often than not, no insta's mean no more ship...)
And yes, even 0.1 to 0.4 is very risky out there 
I guess it depends on what neighborhood you live in...
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"for piece sakes!" |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.06.07 11:10:00 -
[5]
Used to go through Reblier into Syndicate to trade those transcranial chip thingies.
Was a lotta fun, never saw anyone camping (except JQA, but they weren't vry good at it).
[Heterocephalus glaber]
|
Derisor
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Posted - 2005.06.07 11:19:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Bhaal
Quote:
Huh? Are playing on a different shard to me? I'll grant that zipping around 0.0 without instas is risky but it's not suicidal. As for Empire, pfft! Maybe I operate in a particularly friendly area but I have never met an ore thief (once had some fool try and ransom a can of kernite but he never came back). I have never been ganked or even targetted when flying from there to Yulai/Niyabainen or anywhere else in Empire.
Well, Derisor is talking about the entry/exit to The Great Wildlands.
If you don't have insta's, you are pretty much dead, period... (once in a while you can get lucky & make it, but more often than not, no insta's mean no more ship...)
And yes, even 0.1 to 0.4 is very risky out there
I guess it depends on what neighborhood you live in...
Totally correct about the neighborhood im talkign about. Its one of the hottest neighborhoods in the game which is good for business but risky.
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
anister
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Posted - 2005.06.07 11:26:00 -
[7]
I autopiloted 16 jumps out of Pure Blind 2 days ago in a shuttle no problems.
It's the main chokepoints (as mentioned above) where no instas = risky, but with the 30 new entry points being opened up for 0.0 this isn't going to be as big a concern as it is now.
___
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Thyro
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Posted - 2005.06.07 13:56:00 -
[8]
And another add
remove the INSTAS and we will see the next phase of EXODUS
New EXODUS into the EMPIRE!
Really appropriate name for a game! 
|
Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.06.07 14:00:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Thyro
And another add
remove the INSTAS and we will see the next phase of EXODUS
New EXODUS into the EMPIRE!
Really appropriate name for a game!
Yeees, adn that one wastn funny the first time either Thyro.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Winterblink
|
Posted - 2005.06.07 14:25:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Winterblink on 07/06/2005 14:25:16
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Now, let's close the whole insta discussion and see what the devs come up with and then shoot at it instead of all this useless repetitive posturing crap everyone is doing at the moment.
Is this your first time reading General Discussions, Rod? Or just your first time reading a Derisor thread?
___winterblink/warp_drive_active/eve_nature_vraie// |
Bhaal
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Posted - 2005.06.07 14:32:00 -
[11]
Quote:
Is this your first time reading General Discussions, Rod? Or just your first time reading a Derisor thread?
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"for piece sakes!" |
Ranger 1
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Posted - 2005.06.07 15:46:00 -
[12]
I would strongly suggest reading the other appropriate threads concerning the ALTERNATIVES proposed to make it possible to remove insta's from the game.
Some people make it seem like the Dev's want to remove insta's with no alternatives available. This is not the case. They simply wish to develop a different type of system that works better for predator and prey alike... and make for a better, more balanced, and less frustrating game.
Kill the enemy, and break their toys. |
DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.07 15:55:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Derisor
Oh and one more thing ...
If you think you can easily avoid any organized groups with your instas try flying through egbinger to E02 corridor about 7pm saturday night. You will be educated in about 10 seconds.
Ganking as a team sport is alive and well. It should be ONLY a team sport, not perpetrated by a single idiot with a raven.
K this is what I don't understand.
If you KNOW its going to be camped, and you aren't in a ship that can run it (like an inty), or there is a bubble, WHY WOULD YOU GO THAT WAY?!?!?!?!
Its the same carebear laziness that makes them put all cargo expanders on instead of nanos or stabs, then complain when they die in lowsec empire. If you simply went an extra 20 jumps or so you could just go around that. With the NWO, and even more 0.0 access points, you could prolly go around any gatecamp quite easilly.
But nah, whining about it on the forums is easier than problem solving,
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.06.08 14:08:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Derisor
In 0.1-0.4 that cant be done. Anyone firing on you is engaged by the sentries so you have a cosy little world knowing that it will need a fleet to stop you.
Not true. If you have agressed in the past 15 minutes, anyone can freely attack you, without sentry response.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.06.08 14:14:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Derisor
Originally by: SinBin
Ill add more on the wine scales.
I had an insta in 0.0 it was 2km offline i knew & had switched on auto pilot mid warp & lost a shuttle to a scorp but instas make us invanrable, agreed it was an unlucky find but should a BS lock & kill a shuttle crossing 2km ? thats about 1/2 secounds.
Even i said rmove instas but when they do even a modual putting us 5km still mixed with insta gank setups we soon be playing alone.
That BS had probably several stacked sensor boosters. Whether that is a good thing is a subject for another thread. However, it is certainly true that the BS sacrificed other things to be able to lock fast. He depends on killing fast. If he gets jumped by a covops and just one other BS he will have a bad day.
In the GW sniping doesnt seem to happen much. Most battles are areound the gate and I think one of the main reasons is that there are so many covops pilots in GW.
Yeah sniping=ghay as hell IMO. Sensor boosters should either give you a bonus to range OR to locking time, NOT both. And maybe even limit sensor boosters to 1 per ship like mwd, sure its reducing your fitting options, but it would mean 1) Less *** 100km+ fleet battles, and 2) Less noob snipers in apocs and megas sitting 150km away from gates instalocking trying to snipe.
Oh... and/or make it so you can fit 2 mwds, then we can actually catch those snipers :).
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Derisor
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Posted - 2005.06.08 14:20:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Derisor on 08/06/2005 14:24:03
Originally by: Discorporation
Originally by: Derisor
In 0.1-0.4 that cant be done. Anyone firing on you is engaged by the sentries so you have a cosy little world knowing that it will need a fleet to stop you.
Not true. If you have agressed in the past 15 minutes, anyone can freely attack you, without sentry response.
Oh GOOD ... in that case Ill just wait til he shoots at me to shoot back .... oh wait .. id be dead then. Bump that up to 30 minutes or 45 and Ill be happy. Then I can reasonably expect that he is within the agression window.
But I wonder, would I loose sec status for popping him in empire?
But still this has little to do with instas.
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
Discorporation
|
Posted - 2005.06.08 14:21:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Derisor
Oh GOOD ... in that case Ill just wait til he shoots at me to shoot back .... oh wait .. id be dead then. Bump that up to 30 minutes or 45 and Ill be happy.
But still this has little to do with instas.
Duh, if he hasn't done anything wrong, he shouldn't be vulnerable to player retaliation  .
But true, nothing to do with instas.
[Heterocephalus glaber]
|
Derisor
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Posted - 2005.06.08 14:23:00 -
[18]
Originally by: DrunkenOne
Originally by: Derisor
Originally by: SinBin
Ill add more on the wine scales.
I had an insta in 0.0 it was 2km offline i knew & had switched on auto pilot mid warp & lost a shuttle to a scorp but instas make us invanrable, agreed it was an unlucky find but should a BS lock & kill a shuttle crossing 2km ? thats about 1/2 secounds.
Even i said rmove instas but when they do even a modual putting us 5km still mixed with insta gank setups we soon be playing alone.
That BS had probably several stacked sensor boosters. Whether that is a good thing is a subject for another thread. However, it is certainly true that the BS sacrificed other things to be able to lock fast. He depends on killing fast. If he gets jumped by a covops and just one other BS he will have a bad day.
In the GW sniping doesnt seem to happen much. Most battles are areound the gate and I think one of the main reasons is that there are so many covops pilots in GW.
Yeah sniping=ghay as hell IMO. Sensor boosters should either give you a bonus to range OR to locking time, NOT both. And maybe even limit sensor boosters to 1 per ship like mwd, sure its reducing your fitting options, but it would mean 1) Less *** 100km+ fleet battles, and 2) Less noob snipers in apocs and megas sitting 150km away from gates instalocking trying to snipe.
Oh... and/or make it so you can fit 2 mwds, then we can actually catch those snipers :).
I do find it a tad strange that a BS can be boosted to instalock a frigate without much of a penalty at all in firepower. Sure, he cant do other things with his mid slots or low but his firepower is mostly intact. However, the solution to this dilemma is not apparent to me.
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2005.06.08 14:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Derisor
Edited by: Derisor on 08/06/2005 14:05:06
Now CCP has had this running theme that the game is a team sport. Piracy is a legit activity as far as I am concerned but it should be an activity requiring a team to perpetrate. Or are you irrevocably attached to your ability to log on your raven gate gank a couple of haulers for a couple minutes, log off and pat yourself on the back at how leet you are?
I personally think piracy should be something a bit more interesting like putting a warp bubble between two gates and catching ships that are jumping directly at the next gate or something a bit more fun than simply sitting up there waiting for the instalock. Its a shame you seem to imagine only what you can do right now.
It takes no skill to gate gank a hauler. Try some pvp that does take skill. You might even like it.
I think everyone understands it takes no real "Pvp" skill to "Gate Camp". It isn't about PVP skill. It's about dominating the WEAK to profit from there destruction. It's smart and it works. Why do I want to lose my ship to a opponent who can fight? What profit do I gain from this? Respect???? What the hell would I want his/her respect for... I want isk, I want to take advantage of little weak pilots and make some isk. I want to do this at ease and I want to do this without losing my ship. Hello????
No I don't ever log off due to hostiles. No I don't fly a battleship to gate camp either. I can do this with cruisers and battlecruisers without losing my ship and still have time to tank and get the job done. None the less. Other players do log off when signs of hostiles. They do this in any PVP action not just gate camping. You can't stop it and it sucks. That's how it goes. CCP is adding in more enhancements to stop logging off if they engage in battle. However, I dout they could fix it so you couldn't log off if you see hostiles.
Rest of your jibberish is just your opinion as this is my opinion that it shouldn't be just "Team effort". Some people do solo and it's much harder for us to make isk this way. I think all trades should have solo aspects to them. Not just made to be a "Team" thing. Don't be ignorant and say it should be just this way. Both sides need love as both carebears and pirates both need equal love.
I think the Amarrian pretty much summed up the first portion of your reply. As I stated in another "Criminal and or gate camping" post. Don't post unless you know. Give valid arguements not stuff you assumed was correct in your head. Hate to sound like a ******* but threads like this just add to the "Whinning" posts of trying to get systems changed. Even if you don't think it's "Whinning".
Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
-The Frig- |
Derisor
|
Posted - 2005.06.08 14:27:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
I think everyone understands it takes no real "Pvp" skill to "Gate Camp". It isn't about PVP skill. It's about dominating the WEAK to profit from there destruction. It's smart and it works. Why do I want to lose my ship to a opponent who can fight? What profit do I gain from this? Respect???? What the hell would I want his/her respect for... I want isk, I want to take advantage of little weak pilots and make some isk. I want to do this at ease and I want to do this without losing my ship. Hello????
Oh ... so then you are a schoolyard bully and a coward? Ok then. Go for it. But just dont expect CCP to make it easy on you by providing you with a nice 15 km crawl up to gate for you to use.
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
Derisor
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Posted - 2005.06.08 14:28:00 -
[21]
Incidentally do you loose security status if you take out a -0.5 gate camping sniper in 0.4 - 0.1 ? Never tried this so I dont know.
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The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
Derisor
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Posted - 2005.06.08 14:30:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
I think the Amarrian pretty much summed up the first portion of your reply. As I stated in another "Criminal and or gate camping" post. Don't post unless you know. Give valid arguements not stuff you assumed was correct in your head. Hate to sound like a ******* but threads like this just add to the "Whinning" posts of trying to get systems changed. Even if you don't think it's "Whinning".
Now you are just being non-sequitur. This thread isnt about piracy. Its about instas. Personally I never have a huge problem with pirates because I have great intel and a corp full of great people that love popping pirates. 
---------
The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one. |
Famine Aligher'ri
|
Posted - 2005.06.08 14:32:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Derisor
Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri
I think everyone understands it takes no real "Pvp" skill to "Gate Camp". It isn't about PVP skill. It's about dominating the WEAK to profit from there destruction. It's smart and it works. Why do I want to lose my ship to a opponent who can fight? What profit do I gain from this? Respect???? What the hell would I want his/her respect for... I want isk, I want to take advantage of little weak pilots and make some isk. I want to do this at ease and I want to do this without losing my ship. Hello????
Oh ... so then you are a schoolyard bully and a coward? Ok then. Go for it. But just dont expect CCP to make it easy on you by providing you with a nice 15 km crawl up to gate for you to use.
If you want to look at it that way then by all means yes I am a bully and a coward. I still reck ships and still profit from it. I'm a pirate, thats what I do. Some pirates earn respect and show great pvp skill. I guess I'm not one of them. But that's besides the point. I don't expect anything from CCP but balance between both good and evil of every system. Everything CCP has suggested for changes I agee on.
Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
-The Frig- |
Hans Roaming
|
Posted - 2005.06.09 12:08:00 -
[24]
Hmm I use instas to save time and in some cases they help me get past a blockade but only if I jump into the middle of it. They don't help when you jump into a system to see two instalocking gankagedons ready to shoot you to ribbons as soon as you decloak. 0.0 once past the choke points I find to be safer than low sec. For getting past blockades I have to sepcially set up a frigate as a blockade runner so it can warp as fast as possible, as it should be really.
Insta's do take time to set up and am not sure you could effectily remove them apart from stopping all bookmarking within a 60km radius of a gate or station. If that was a case then maybe something like a warp computer addon would help as that would allow you more fine grained control over the warp in point and so get closer to your destination.
Of course a radical solution to the problem would be to only allow bookmarks to be made on physical objects. Of course this would eliminate lots of uses that bookmarks have right now however at least the effect would be fair accross the board. And yes the idea of setting up warp bubble between two gates to drop people out of warp is awesome if people can do it effectivly.
In summary like every game there should be a rock / paper / scissors approach and thus as always a balance has to be struck.
WTS: Male, 37, single, can fly starships, build rockets and dance Salsa.
WTB: Female, plays eve, lives near London UK |
Avon
|
Posted - 2005.06.09 13:36:00 -
[25]
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 09/06/2005 12:02:20
Originally by: Avon
That makes no sense at all.
...
A little emotional are we? Anyway...
I am disagreeing with you because I've been here just as long as you (maybe longer maybe not, whatever) and I know the game damn well enough to be sure that you are using instas. Whether you use them yourself, or whether you use them indirectly makes no difference in the big picture.
You said you like pimping the markets while you travel. Have you ever asked yourself how little hauler joey managed to bring those highend mins to the station where you buy them so that you can make your profit?
Telling me you have mates as warp beacons when going in large ships. Have you ever asked one of them how they got there to play the beacon for you?
You probably have a corp infrastructure going, relying on items others supply to the corp or directly to you on occassion. Are you going to tell me now that all of those items have been brought to you without the use of instas?
You can't not be using instas because they are an integral part of this game, like it or not. And after all I am pretty sure that you are intelligent enough to realise the effects a removal of these instas would have on the game if you do it without coming up with a decent solution to counter those effects.
You have to be completely naive and unrealistic if you think that removing instas right now would benefit the game. It's a no-go. Impossible. I don't have to know how you play to realise that.
How do my 'warp to' buddies get in place? They fly there in fast ships.
If they had insta's they could just give me a copy.
Do people use insta's to put bargins on the market for me?
No.
If they had insta's they'd be selling in Yulai like everyone else.
Do I rely on people using insta's to supply my stuff?
No.
I know where the manufactures are, and I go to them - much cheaper.
Do I use insta's to get minerals if I am making my own stuff?
No, I do rogue drone missions.
The removal of insta's would not grind the game to a halt. You claim this so you don't have to adjust your gameplay.
Your reasons are entirely selfish, and trying to deflect that on to me to defend some imagined gamestyle I have is a poor, no null, arguement.
______________________________________________
Never argue with idiots.
They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience. |
MaiLina KaTar
|
Posted - 2005.06.09 13:45:00 -
[26]
Originally by: "Avon
Your reasons are entirely selfish, and trying to deflect that on to me to defend some imagined gamestyle I have is a poor, no null, arguement.
Mmhmmm...
So I guess my entirely selfish arguing must be the reason why CCP still hasn't removed IJs. They're obviously catering to selfish, ignorant carebears with no "vision" of what this game should be, right?
You are more translucent than this bottle of water right here on the desk in front of me.
Extreme opinions and measures have never helped anyone Avon... and you are no exception.
Mai's Idealog |
Avon
|
Posted - 2005.06.09 14:09:00 -
[27]
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
Originally by: "Avon
Your reasons are entirely selfish, and trying to deflect that on to me to defend some imagined gamestyle I have is a poor, no null, arguement.
Mmhmmm...
So I guess my entirely selfish arguing must be the reason why CCP still hasn't removed IJs. They're obviously catering to selfish, ignorant carebears with no "vision" of what this game should be, right?
You are more translucent than this bottle of water right here on the desk in front of me.
Extreme opinions and measures have never helped anyone Avon... and you are no exception.
So the fact that they intend to address insta-jumps suggests what to you?
And yes, I am perfectly clear in my thoughts and comments on this suggestion, I thought that was a good thing.
My view may not be a popular one, but that does not make it wrong.
You made an incorrect assumption about my playstyle, and based your entire arguement upon it.
Sophism 4tw.
______________________________________________
Never argue with idiots.
They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience. |
MaiLina KaTar
|
Posted - 2005.06.09 14:38:00 -
[28]
lmao
Your view ain't popular because it's wrong, buddy.
Done wit' you.
Mai's Idealog |
Avon
|
Posted - 2005.06.09 15:22:00 -
[29]
Originally by: MaiLina KaTar
lmao
Your view ain't popular because it's wrong, buddy.
Done wit' you.
I'm wrong because you say so?
I'm wrong because Eve is meant to be small?
I'm wrong because Eve should have no regionalistion?
I'm wrong because Eve should be a solo effort?
I'm wrong because Eve should reward meta gaming?
I'm wrong because Eve's ship speeds were meant to be meaningless?
I'm wrong because Eve's players should make massive 0.0 claims that they could not defend without meta gaming?
I have a feeling that insta's are wrong, not me.
I know that there are issues out there which would need addressing if insta's were removed, but keeping them to avoid fixing the underlying problems is wrong.
You have proved nothing.
In fact, I am not sure you have even made a point.
______________________________________________
Never argue with idiots.
They will just drag it down to their level, and then beat you through experience. |
Bhaal
|
Posted - 2005.06.09 15:25:00 -
[30]
Quote:
lmao
Your view ain't popular because it's wrong, buddy.
Done wit' you.
Avon, I see you have made a new friend
What's your secret?
------------------------------------------------
"for piece sakes!" |
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