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Olivin	Posted - 2005.06.20 12:23:00 - [91] Originally by: Whirley I think that the main problem is the exodus of the 0.0 Areas. Why to fly there, take risk to get killed, only because you want to earn money? Infation? You earn big money from lvl4 Agents but when I see that 1 Cap Recharger T2 will cost 15 - 17 Million nobody is screaming "INFLATION". Actually, selling Cap Recharges II by any price doesn't cause inflation because it's trade between players. So, no new ISK introduced to the game, just wealth shifting. Originally by: Whirley In these game are two kind of player. One sort like PvE. They don?t interst in PvP so they only go to 0.0 to earn some money and to kill some BS because in Empire you have no chance to do these. This Sort of player are warmly welcomed in 0.0er because they are mostly easy kills for well trained PvPler. But now there is no reason anymore to go to 0.0 for these Pilots, so you will find less and less pepole there. That isn?t in the interst of PvP Players because they have less player there to shoot at. So instead of nerf empire lvl4 missions increase the attractivity of 0.0 space. How? Perhaps release the lvl5 agents only there or let agents which settled in 0.0er give the best offers for LP?s. Releasing level 5 agents in 0.0 won't change anything, mostly because all of them will be simply added to the alliances cash cows. And there are a lot of reasons why certain things should be only available in empire, and never in 0.0 ( this works both way) Level 4 and Level 5 agents are among this things and should stay in empire. Olivin
Karol Kei	Posted - 2005.06.21 04:25:00 - [92] Originally by: The Enslaver It makes empire too profitable, therefore destroying the balance of risk vs reward. But gridding didn't, I suppose? Of course not. What I believe I am seeing is "the old money" largely made in complete safety endlessly whining about lvl 4 missions being no risk / large reward. Which they are. Like many things are and were. Quit whining. Adapt. That is the mantra I believe. What happened was people made a lot of ISK, and then thought that they would never have to do it again or at the very least it was a slight effort at most to stay on top at money aspect as well, while counterstriking in space. Now the formerly uber billionaires see their old money devalued as others can make money to gain ground and - whine. Whine whine whine whine and whine and whine whine... repeat as much as you see fit reading all these threads for past months. If the old money was made legitimately and the risk / reward ratio had been correct in the old days I would support this. Even more so since I was a multi-billionaire long before lvl 4 were introduced to the game. Oh, you might want to read the last bit. I do suffer the same fate as the rest guy who thought they were "set for life". I know how it feels. It is no reason to talk bullwhip about how R/R ratio of current days is destroying Eve economy. It isn't and we all know it. There was nothing to destroy to begin with as it has always been out of whack for as long as I have played.
AlexK100	Posted - 2005.06.21 09:26:00 - [93] Originally by: Olivin All this absurd was supported by retarded ( in this content) argument: "Risk vs Reward" "Anti-mission lobby" was so loud, convincing and included so many famous PVP players, that bunch of losers, who simply want to look l33t, start to repeat this gibberish without actual understanding of true reasons behind whole "No more level 4 missions" extravaganza. 3) Alliances happy because no more wealth competition against empire corps. Thats the interesting point. Most of people who whine and scream "nerf 4 lvl" have access to 0.0 so they can mine high lvl ore ( more income per hour than 4 lvl and do 7\10+ complexes ( more income than lvl 4). For casual income hunting could be easily used. I havent heard those people whining about complexes to be honest. Why ? Its huge profit even for 7\10 with no particular risk in controlled space and same bounty as lvl 4. Hovewer, if lvl 5 will be nerfed we can see some carebears in chokepoints and gank them.
AlexK100	Posted - 2005.06.21 09:30:00 - [94] Originally by: The Enslaver L5's should be 0.0 only. Yeah, I totally agree. More killmails and whose mission runners drop quite good loot. On the other hand aliances have to few sources of income 8( We can only mine arkanor and do those unprofitable complexes 8(
AlexK100	Posted - 2005.06.21 09:35:00 - [95] Originally by: The Enslaver Trust me, if L4's got that instead of ISK rewards they would whine a lot - loot in 0.0 is crap. People that think that loot from normal 0.0 spawns are good are most likely clinically insane. I had usually looted 1 rare siege launcher (often arbalests) and 1-2 C5L XL per about 2 hrs from Angels spawns. Might be I was insane but I saw my sell orders in Yulai by myself.
Aziza	Posted - 2005.06.21 14:42:00 - [96] Originally by: Allen Deckard Edited by: Allen Deckard on 20/06/2005 02:29:19 Originally by: The Enslaver Originally by: Kaasta Karrde Edited by: Kaasta Karrde on 15/06/2005 13:29:57 And getting rid of rewards AND bounties DOESN'T destroy risk v reward? So lvl4s are ok as long as they aren't actually worth doing ? Don't agree with ANY of that tbh. Can you read? I said to CHANGE THEM, to give ITEMS instead of ISK, and BETTER LOOT instead of BOUNTIES. Hard to understand? Ahh yes screw over manufacturers even more. Thanks. Personally I believe that there should be nothing but bounties and ocassional faction drops from any rat. All loot drops do is ruin the t1 manufacturing aspect of the game for many by making prices impossible to compete with. T2 still wins but the ability to get into t2 production is out of reach for most any mid size corp. Signed. T1 loot must go! Faction loot, ore, minerals, implants, BPC's, trade goods are Ok.
Valerian	Posted - 2005.07.01 02:37:00 - [97] hehe things don't change, after 6 months it is still cool to bash level 4 agent runners. Let's recap: -L4 is evil! -L4 destroys the economy! -L4 creates an exodus from 0.0 -some nefarious folk are having too much fun doing pve! -kitties and puppies suffer! -I get tired of reading the same old threads! So please CCP listen to these enlighted guys and adjust L4: -No more bounties -Can't be soloable -Make NPCS much tougher -Nerf missiles -Let them drop only miners and civ shield boosters -Make sure agents send the evil L4 agent runner into some Shinra-Atuk gankfest! -If you happen to make isk from missions you account should be banned and yer frozen body shld be liquified and sprayed onto Rens Veld roids! Yarr! I put stupid in your pocket!
Lefia	Posted - 2005.07.01 04:02:00 - [98] Edited by: Lefia on 01/07/2005 04:03:10 Back when I started eve over a year ago I flew a caldari ship and said to myself, "This is very powerful... this has to be too good to be true." And quickly changed to pilot gallente and amarrian ships. Rather glad I did that now. Moral of the story, if it seems too good to be true, it is. Those who follow this moral would have seen this whole missle thing comming a year away. This moral can also be applied to level 4 missions. Originally by: hired goon ------------------------------------------------ I agree with every point and counter point that has been brought up in this and every other argument ever had. ---------
Gamer4liff	Posted - 2005.07.01 08:22:00 - [99] all i know is lvl 4's will still be possible to solo in reasonable safty in a heabilly tanked apoc with pulses'. and thank god for that.
Ledah Righteous	Posted - 2005.07.01 15:49:00 - [100] Originally by: Jet Collins I say if you want Group missions open up the lvl 5's. Currnetly you can use crusers in lvl 3 BS's in lvl 4 why not lvl 5's for groups? Makes since to me?????? Not you? I totally agree, if you want to make missions harder, why not introduce lvl5s? I have mega with really good anti-NPC setup, and I still can't solo all the missions. And not all the time your buddies are able to come over and help you. So what? I'm not a miner, nor a productor. So what should I do after patch, when ppl don't have time to come and help me? Go for lvl3 in megathron? That's ridiculous, I'll spend more isk in ammo, than I get as reward I'd like to see lvl5 missions for group of ppl, and still be able to solo lvl4.
Shauna	Posted - 2005.07.02 07:25:00 - [101] Originally by: MacMillan Forcing all level 4's to be impossible to do on your own without making it worthwhile for other players to join you (shared rewards) could kill em all together. Agreed. Many people will simply do whatever gets them the most LP per time. Even if that 30 million SP character can solo the level 4 missions if it takes forever and he can make more LP/time wtfpwning level 3 agent missions then he'll probably switch to that. Shared LP rewards, etc. really do need to be added first if level 4 missions become un-soloable.
BlackMatrix	Posted - 2005.07.02 12:49:00 - [102] Originally by: Zrakor We aren't totally destroying soloability of level 4 missions in this patch, but they are gradually becoming harder, and for some who could barely do them pre-patch they probably will be 'unsoloable' after the patch. With Kali we expect the mission rewards to be sharable, including standing gain, and that's when we truely intend to make the biggest difficulty overhaul. Excellent
Forgo	Posted - 2005.07.03 01:46:00 - [103] While im new at the game still, I was working up to the lev 4 combats.....so far not soloable at all. Its a shame to not have a choice for solo ablility, for the challenge of those missions. I play due to the complexities and risk in eve. now why do I want to go to lev 3's when they are even easy for the most part with 3.5 mill sp's and 1/2 in learning at that. I like challenges, and lev 4's gave me that goal to work towards, but I am not a group player, too much hassle and reliance on other peoples skills makes groups to easy yet frustrating. I am fairly new and lets be honest, its not exactly a game you just trust anyone who wants to help, lot of people taken advantage of. So please if u can reconsider, lev 4's are my goal to become proficient at with my skills, good practice for pvp later and overall learning for flying diff setups.(not to mention a decent way that i could theoretically get the income to pursue options) The gap from new player working towards that goal vs old players able to take 3 years advantage of is increased enormously. lev 3's are not the challenge I need to fully be challenged, tested, and Lev 3's are hardly any easy segment to make mistakes with, actually fairly hard to make a big mistake. I can run all agents but am forced and have been forced to do lev 4 courier, which arent exactly a money machine, but if low sec risky and a challenge which is why I do those. Ill reiterate, I am not one looking to have help in this game, I like to solo, not explain myself/moderate others, and earn what I deserve. Grouping turns me away if anything at 1st thought, If i liked grouping im sure the past 10 years of mmo's would have kept my business....... pls reconsider the gaps(new vs old), pains of others involved, challenges for the solo player in future mission changes.
maximyus	Posted - 2005.07.03 14:01:00 - [104] ccp have really made a mess this time nerfing missiles was a stuiped thing to do i was just on the test server and torps do 40 damage to frigs ie eve is now ** i won't be on eve again till i can fly a dread and that will only entertain me for a couple of weeks i think its time me and my alts found a dif game to play all i can say ccp u are **s
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.07.03 14:17:00 - [105] cya maximus. Thanks CCP. Its about time missions were made soloable by the peeps with a) the skills and skill b) access to friends to help them
Mephistophilus	Posted - 2005.07.03 17:16:00 - [106] I'm with you max
Allen Deckard	Posted - 2005.07.03 19:42:00 - [107] Not quiting game but gonna dump my caldari alt account. no point in having it as I see it it will be an even more worthless alt account as it was worthless for pvp before and now it will be worthless against pve and since it is worthless with mining I don't see much purpose in it. To bad for me really but on an up note my wife will be happy.
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.07.03 20:00:00 - [108] are they gonna be able to solo with a mega and with what setup then
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.07.03 20:01:00 - [109] Originally by: maximyus ccp have really made a mess this time nerfing missiles was a stuiped thing to do i was just on the test server and torps do 40 damage to frigs ie eve is now ** i won't be on eve again till i can fly a dread and that will only entertain me for a couple of weeks i think its time me and my alts found a dif game to play all i can say ccp u are **s how u think we turrut users feel when we CANT even hit them.
Tisti	Posted - 2005.07.04 02:46:00 - [110] Originally by: Deja Thoris cya maximus. Thanks CCP. Its about time missions were made soloable by the peeps with a) the skills and skill b) access to friends to help them How exactly is it soloable if your friends help you?
Blitzkrieg	Posted - 2005.07.04 03:01:00 - [111] Originally by: Zrakor We aren't totally destroying soloability of level 4 missions in this patch, but they are gradually becoming harder, and for some who could barely do them pre-patch they probably will be 'unsoloable' after the patch. With Kali we expect the mission rewards to be sharable, including standing gain, and that's when we truely intend to make the biggest difficulty overhaul. GRADUALLY LOL I don't call that gradual: nerfing missiles + boosting npcs + removing L4 pirate drops from empire all AT ONCE Not saying that it isn't a good idea but that's going to be a rude awakening for some... Guess CCP isn't afraid to lose subs a la WoW
Destroyer Draxx	Posted - 2005.07.04 05:42:00 - [112] Originally by: The Enslaver L1-3 is fine, L4 introduces too much ISK into the economy. It makes empire too profitable, therefore destroying the balance of risk vs reward. It would be ok for L4's to stay, IF they are modified to not give out ISK rewards (on rewards and bounties), to halt the insane inflation, and for most missions to require groups. Instead of ISK, just boost the NPC loot a little and give higher item-based rewards from normal missions. L4 missions is the best way to make isk atm, but I agree they need tuning. It makes no sense to make more isk in emp than in 0.0 space. However Apoc will still be able to do them by fitting light T2 drones and 2 Heavy miss launchers. The problem is that Raven couldnt mine and now propably cant hunt-npc. If CCP intented to fix lvl4 missions they should fix it all the way. I dont mind not beeing able to do lvl4 missions, but I would like to c the change affect everyone for a change, not just a particular race-ship type So Far So Good....So What
d'hofren	Posted - 2005.07.04 09:50:00 - [113] Edited by: d''hofren on 04/07/2005 09:53:36 Originally by: Deja Thoris cya maximus. Thanks CCP. Its about time missions were made soloable by the peeps with a) the skills and skill b) access to friends to help them I have to agree. I have 8 million or so sp's. It's not a huge amount and represents around 7 months of eve life. My skills are targeted towards minmatar and I float about in a tempest or a phoon. My pest setup was shield tank, speed, 1400's and a few cruise. I've just started lvl 4's and can solo some of the current missions but not all. Post patch I guess that I can drop the cruise launchers for arby assualts and hopefully still deal with the inties which are my only real worry after the patch. If I run into a tough mission I will either decline it or grab a few corp mates for a helping hand. Hopefully in another 4 months time I will be able to solo 80% of the lvl 4's I get offered. Lvl 4's are darned hard in any non missile centric ship. It wasn't "right" that people could walk them in ravens, (I've seen three month old chars doing lvl 4's in a ravens). (I am a bit peeved that I need to drop a hardner for a webber now - but that's a another story) Originally by: Destroyer Draxx snip... but I would like to c the change affect everyone for a change, not just a particular race-ship type Looks at phoon, cries. --- Originally by: Winterblink It's an online game. Online games are always populated at people who look at their wood elf and whine that everyone else's dagger is bigger than theirs.
Helmut 314	Posted - 2005.07.04 10:53:00 - [114] Originally by: The Enslaver L5's should be 0.0 only. And no, the new connections skillbooks do not cause inflation. Your agent gives you a skillbook, not 300m. Someone else pays 300m from ISK that already exists. So, Level 4 missions in empire cause inflation and are the root of all evil, Level 5 missions in 0.0 dont ? How about level 4 missions in 0.0, I understand that they give more lp, isk and rewards, doesnt that mean that missions in 0.0 = UBER Evil ? ___________________________________ Trying is the first step of failure - Homer J Simpson
JimmySav	Posted - 2005.07.04 12:42:00 - [115] All the whining about soloable missions is a joke.. The lvl4 missions from Exodus were meant to be unsolable, but CCP made a miscalculation and solo empire lvl 4'ing nearly killed the game (at least in 0 sec) Now they are slowly "fixing" their mistake, and trying to get people to want to go to 0 sec (like they always claimed they wanted to). Change is good. (except if i get blown up because of it!) Jim'll Fix it For You. ( and you and you!)
d'hofren	Posted - 2005.07.04 13:43:00 - [116] Originally by: JimmySav All the whining about soloable missions is a joke.. The lvl4 missions from Exodus were meant to be unsolable, but CCP made a miscalculation and solo empire lvl 4'ing nearly killed the game (at least in 0 sec) Now they are slowly "fixing" their mistake, and trying to get people to want to go to 0 sec (like they always claimed they wanted to). Change is good. (except if i get blown up because of it!) Originally by: Zrakor We aren't totally destroying soloability of level 4 missions in this patch, but they are gradually becoming harder, and for some who could barely do them pre-patch they probably will be 'unsoloable' after the patch. With Kali we expect the mission rewards to be sharable, including standing gain, and that's when we truely intend to make the biggest difficulty overhaul. --- Originally by: Winterblink It's an online game. Online games are always populated at people who look at their wood elf and whine that everyone else's dagger is bigger than theirs.
Joram McRory	Posted - 2005.07.04 14:27:00 - [117] Jeeze there is a lot of whineing in this thread! Personally the missile changes will help me because they will make missile ships worth having in PvP. Missions, well I do a lot of solo L4's and I am sure I will find a way to carry on, be it doing them in 2 ships - eagle/cerberus for frigs/cruiser then BS for BS or by finding an uber Raven fitting. maybe even the Cerberus will be ok on it's own. So misiles better in PvP, L4's still doable :-) What's the fuss about? But to all those who say that L4s ruin the economy, can I just say I think that is bolox. All it means is that wealth is distributed a bit more evenly. Now it's not just the lucky sods with T2 BPOs or those Alliance carebears who mine Ark all day that have some cash. Ok that might mean prices have adjusted to meet the new demand. But so what. Should L4's be available to anyone with 3 mil SP & a Raven, of course not. But knowing that there is actually a way of making money awiting you when you get better skills is a good thing IMO. As to risk/reward I have done my stint mining high end ores in 0.0 and i do a fair few missions. I have lost 1 mining barge to a 0.0 spawn, never lost a BS npc hunting, and lost 2 BS to L4s (one had 6 arbe seige on it) so I think the risk reward is ok.
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.07.04 21:00:00 - [118] Originally by: Tisti Originally by: Deja Thoris cya maximus. Thanks CCP. Its about time missions were made soloable by the peeps with a) the skills and skill b) access to friends to help them How exactly is it soloable if your friends help you? make that "doable"
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2005.07.04 22:17:00 - [119] Originally by: maximyus ccp have really made a mess this time nerfing missiles was a stuiped thing to do i was just on the test server and torps do 40 damage to frigs ie eve is now ** i won't be on eve again till i can fly a dread and that will only entertain me for a couple of weeks i think its time me and my alts found a dif game to play all i can say ccp u are **s Basically you are not ready for solo level 4 missions yet, and to be perfectly honest, neither should you be, being only a 3 month old character. (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
Nordmann	Posted - 2005.07.05 00:11:00 - [120] Originally by: JimmySav All the whining about soloable missions is a joke.. The lvl4 missions from Exodus were meant to be unsolable, but CCP made a miscalculation and solo empire lvl 4'ing nearly killed the game (at least in 0 sec) Now they are slowly "fixing" their mistake, and trying to get people to want to go to 0 sec (like they always claimed they wanted to). Change is good. (except if i get blown up because of it!) you are right

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