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MacMillan	Posted - 2005.06.13 18:46:00 - [1] Are they saying that after the patch all lvl4 missions will be impossible to do solo or just some of them Doesnt matter either way but I am curious
Citizen Angstrom	Posted - 2005.06.13 19:20:00 - [2] If you read what the devs have posted, you will see that they are attacking *Ye EVIL That Is Ye Level 4 Agent Running* on two fronts. First of all, (and this is clever because it doesn't look like a nerf to agent missions at first), there are the missile 'changes'. I won't call them a nerf, since they may be an advantageous change for PvP missile boats. But they sure are a nerf to mission runners. Want to shoot out those frigs that have just caught up with you? ...Better be carrying a cargohold full of torps! ...Hope you've got all those juicy new skills trained up high! ...Where are your target painters & webbers? ...What's that: you say you won't be able to tank that group of BSs over there if you fit the- ..<<Bang>>.. Secondly, there is going to be a series of 'tweaks' made to the 'Boss Mob' NPC ships, at the end of the biggest and best missions. Apparently, they are going to become more powerful. I read that as meaning 'unsoloable'. This is where the gloves come off, and CCP admit that they don't want you to run level 4 missions solo. Or at all, if truth be told. They want you out there in 0.0, being shot at (and I presume shooting back. Although that's optional) Of course, if you've been a for your EVE career, you're not going to be very good at the shooting back thing. PVPers would probably advise you to join up with like-minded souls, similarly afflicted... and to tell them where you are based in 0.0. Yarr!
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.06.13 19:37:00 - [3] Correct and lame for a couple reasons. 1. gang skill bonus are often dropped and do not always apply to all character in gang even tho all are pressent. 2. there is currently no way to fully share the rewards of doing said missions in groups. 3. Why force people with 26 mill SP into doing group missions when the features are not there to fully share the mission. 4. Lvl 5 agents are released but not active. 5. missle patch will nerf missions enough being all missions are hard enough in anything but a raven. The missle adjustment will make lvl 4 missions on par with the difficulty of every other BS in game. 6. A tempest can simply make range and hit ships for full damage, with this missle adjustment, a torp will never in any situation hit a smaller ship for full damage EVER. Not everyone can paint and web at 100+ KM to make their missles hit for full damage but a turret ship can. When will CCP realize they can really do things one step at a time. This missle adjustment will make things hard enough without changing aanything to do with the npc rats. Lets see how many times hass CCP attacked things from a couple few fronts and fubared it beyond belief. Pulse lasers anyone ....... what made them uber in first place. To many adjustment at once which lead to the recent mega pulse nerf.
MacMillan	Posted - 2005.06.13 20:29:00 - [4] Well I enjoy the missions which is why i do them, if i enjoyed pvp fighting I would do that but i dont. If lvl4's become unsoloable all over i will have to go back to lvl3's it dont bother me! I joined eve cos i liked the choice that if i wanted to pvp fight i could and if i didnt i didnt have to. I wont be forced to do it I think as said the missile "changes" will make them hard for the caldari but other races can do lvl4s without spamming torps so im sure i can addapt to that one. Forcing all level 4's to be impossible to do on your own without making it worthwhile for other players to join you (shared rewards) could kill em all together. I know the hardcore pvp'ers view as its everywhere and power to you, what do other solo lvl4 runners think?
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.06.13 20:55:00 - [5] Originally by: Citizen Angstrom If you read what the devs have posted, you will see that they are attacking *Ye EVIL That Is Ye Level 4 Agent Running* on two fronts. First of all, (and this is clever because it doesn't look like a nerf to agent missions at first), there are the missile 'changes'. I won't call them a nerf, since they may be an advantageous change for PvP missile boats. But they sure are a nerf to mission runners. Want to shoot out those frigs that have just caught up with you? ...Better be carrying a cargohold full of torps! ...Hope you've got all those juicy new skills trained up high! ...Where are your target painters & webbers? ...What's that: you say you won't be able to tank that group of BSs over there if you fit the- ..<<Bang>>.. Secondly, there is going to be a series of 'tweaks' made to the 'Boss Mob' NPC ships, at the end of the biggest and best missions. Apparently, they are going to become more powerful. I read that as meaning 'unsoloable'. This is where the gloves come off, and CCP admit that they don't want you to run level 4 missions solo. Or at all, if truth be told. They want you out there in 0.0, being shot at (and I presume shooting back. Although that's optional) Of course, if you've been a for your EVE career, you're not going to be very good at the shooting back thing. PVPers would probably advise you to join up with like-minded souls, similarly afflicted... and to tell them where you are based in 0.0. Yarr! Yada yada, Fit smartbombs, train drones, equip cruise or heavies. Refit in the middle of a mission. These are all options available to you but you whine. Instead of mindlessly mashing f1-f6 perhaps its time to change. Other races struggle mightily to do level 4's. They have to play with setups for different missions until they find one that works. Thats part of the fun. If the fun is in just watching the ISK counter tick upwards then it's the wrong game for you. Remember, its a multiplayer game. You can form one man corps looks meaningfully - but wheres the interaction? Play with buddies and do missions that way if you cant solo them. So, in reply to the question - I think they will still be soloable by more highly skilled players. I have a LOT of SP in gunnery and I prefer to do them with friends.
Niklas	Posted - 2005.06.13 22:29:00 - [6] The Raven will still pawn lvl 4 missions. Most missions have at least 1-2 hrs to finish and some are over 6. Make bm's. Then outfit a raven with 6-hvy missle launchers. Kill all the frigs, and probably the cruisers. Then go back and refit to kill the bs's with torps. Simple and easy. Once you kill the frigs, you can warp in and out at your leisure.
Jim Steele	Posted - 2005.06.13 22:36:00 - [7] Originally by: MacMillan Are they saying that after the patch all lvl4 missions will be impossible to do solo or just some of them I think they are only making the isk-making raven less efficeint, i can lvl 4 in an apoc the only difference is i shall be fitting an assault launcher or small/med turrets instead of siege to deal with npc intys/drones job done.. Death to the Galante
Cutter John	Posted - 2005.06.14 01:52:00 - [8] Originally by: Niklas The Raven will still pawn lvl 4 missions. Most missions have at least 1-2 hrs to finish and some are over 6. Make bm's. Then outfit a raven with 6-hvy missle launchers. Kill all the frigs, and probably the cruisers. Then go back and refit to kill the bs's with torps. Simple and easy. Once you kill the frigs, you can warp in and out at your leisure. Or you could bribe your brother to come in a domi setup to kill frigs and cruisers for you . I wouldn't mind it either if the lvl 4 agents gave an option for a solo or group mission. If you want to solo, you get the easy 1 or 2 bs encounter missions. If you want a group mission, you get the extravaganza's and other tougher deadspace missions. Lets face it.. theres a HUGE difference between lvl 3 and lvl 4 missions. we need some lvl 3 1/2 missions or something. My Idea Thread Give Drones Love!
EveJunkie	Posted - 2005.06.14 06:23:00 - [9] It would be really nice to have some missions balanced half way between lvl 3 and 4. I'm a HAC pilot (hate battleships) and the lvl 3 missions are no chalenge at all. lvl 4 missions are mostly impossible in a HAC (there are a few you can do) when you get 20+ ships all shooting you at once you really need those 2 large armour reps and 4 hardeners running. Same goes for complexes, their either way too easy for a HAC or way too hard.
digitalwanderer	Posted - 2005.06.14 09:34:00 - [10] Edited by: digitalwanderer on 14/06/2005 09:39:29 I¦ll still do them in my Apoc no matter what,since as they stand now,they¦re far to easy to do anyhow...9 mill sp in gunnery and almost 30 mill in total might have something to do with that though... And the dual ship option might be a worthile idea if you have lots of spare isk,one,one tanked to hell and back and set up for speed,wich is possible with the powergrid/CPU savings of not having large weapons fitted,and mount weapons that wipe out cruisers and frigs very fast and the other BS,fitted specifically to wipe out the remaining BS¦s... Might take a bit longer,but then again,with the higher NPC ship count and presumably bigger bounties from tougher to kill BS,you might still make even more isk than before...
The Enslaver	Posted - 2005.06.14 10:39:00 - [11] Just remember that every mission you do, helps destroy the EVE economy. Oh, and every time you do a mission, God takes 20 puppies and 20 kittens, and drowns them in sulphuric acid. -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.06.14 10:51:00 - [12] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 14/06/2005 10:52:12 Originally by: The Enslaver Just remember that every mission you do, helps destroy the EVE economy. Oh, and every time you do a mission, God takes 20 puppies and 20 kittens, and drowns them in sulphuric acid. Thats fine and dandy but how many do i need to donate to god to have him boost my mega a bit? I wish i could do l4's half as fast in my (Way better looking btw) megathron then that boring ass raven Personally i hope they wait with increasing the spawns, after the raven changes a lot of people will start dieing in other ships anyway --------------------------- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Burzon	Posted - 2005.06.14 11:38:00 - [13] Yeah .... ... put 7 * 350mm¦s on a Mega, fit a Heavy Launcher or a Cruiser Launcer, carry a mix of Med and Heavy Drones and have some fun. Can solo all Lvl 4 missions, just takes a bit longer and i only got 2.5 Mil in Gunnery :) Cheers Burzon CEO PAX Interstellar Services
MacMillan	Posted - 2005.06.14 11:49:00 - [14] Good to know that people are not worried. Its all about adapting at the end of the day which is half the fun of patch (nerf) day Thanks for the input guys and gals
Zrakor	Posted - 2005.06.14 11:54:00 - [15] We aren't totally destroying soloability of level 4 missions in this patch, but they are gradually becoming harder, and for some who could barely do them pre-patch they probably will be 'unsoloable' after the patch. With Kali we expect the mission rewards to be sharable, including standing gain, and that's when we truely intend to make the biggest difficulty overhaul.
digitalwanderer	Posted - 2005.06.14 12:14:00 - [16] Originally by: Zrakor We aren't totally destroying soloability of level 4 missions in this patch, but they are gradually becoming harder, and for some who could barely do them pre-patch they probably will be 'unsoloable' after the patch. With Kali we expect the mission rewards to be sharable, including standing gain, and that's when we truely intend to make the biggest difficulty overhaul. So it¦s still business as usual for those that can do them pretty easily and aren¦t using Ravens?...I was kinda hoping there would be missions that could actually make me warp out once or twice if there were way too many bad guys shooting at me...
Jet Collins	Posted - 2005.06.14 13:09:00 - [17] I just started soloing some lvl 4 in my tempest going well so far taking a long time but other wise no trouble. The only concern I have is after patch, is well yes there is the missle changes I'm not to worred about that don't use them much, and will just have to start using a webber. But if the missions them selves are harder to the point where I can't do the lvl 4 solo it would pretty much make eve suck until I get at least 5mil or in SP. I say this because lvl 3 are way to easy and the hardly worth while, and I don't like pvp. I guess I could try 0.0 but than again I would need a group of people like I would need in the lvl 4, and well yes I have lost of freinds on Eve but we are all doing our own things and on other sides of the map. So its pretty hard to get people togeather, plus they don;t get the rewards you do so they would wrather do their own missions. Well thats my rant. Worst comes to worst i'll be doing lvl currior missions again I say if you want Group missions open up the lvl 5's. Currnetly you can use crusers in lvl 3 BS's in lvl 4 why not lvl 5's for groups? Makes since to me?????? Not you?
jeangrey	Posted - 2005.06.14 13:31:00 - [18] hmmmmm... growl... i must admit that i am not too keen on the new chages to missles one bit.... before all you apoc and mega pilots with uber skill sets start talking about the pvp balance which this change is suposed to bring, just hear my point of view. i`m quite a new player. only just breaking the 7 mil skill barrier, and i have at the momment the ability to solo most lvl 4 missions (caldari navy in empire). these new missles changes will pretty much negate my ability to do that. now i know that the new missle skills will kind of re-balance this problem. but that means training all the new missle (specialisation) skills. whats wrong with that i hear you say? as a new player it is difficult/impossible to ever catch up with the veterans, i totaly understand this, hence the need for specialistation. but some of us have other key skills that are stil to do in the training ladder, making all the missle players now train up loads of rank 2-4 skills to get back to the standard they are ALREADY at seems unfair to me. why not make the new skills affect t2 missles and launchers but leave the ones as they are at the momment? anyone wishing to have the best missles must train the new skills, as they do with any of the large guns etc. but it would not have a the massive impact on all the caldari agent runners that this new patch will. sure change the speed of the missles, but why change the damage and hit ratio?. its a guided missle, of course its going to hit every time. thats why they cost so much as ammunition in comaprison to all the other ammo types. making a torpedo not do as much damage to a smaller ship seem ridiculous to me. baring in mind that npc`s already fire loads of deffender missles at you as it is. having to constantly refit your ship to attack different ship types is just stupid. and will only add more time needed to what is already a long winded process. also there is now need to change the difficulty of lvl 4 missions. make them the last of the solo-able missions, i was under the impression that the lvl 5 missions would be the ones that required teamwork to complete. the rewards on the lvl 4 missions are to small to make it worth while 2 or 3 people teaming up to do them. just bear in mind that everone pays real money to play this game, changeing things that are not in my opinion broken, is not the way to go. people like me that cant play this game as much as they would like due to rl shouldnt have there entire style of play changed like this. just my little whinge. i do see the posible benifits that this missle change will bring to the pvpers, but not everone does pvp. these views are my own. and in no way reflect the views of my corp. this is also my first forum post so go easy on me eh?
Taho Ra	Posted - 2005.06.14 14:04:00 - [19] Well the only way to do any damage to frigates is with target painter, but if their webed are the missels going to hit for full damage? I'm just curious cause im almost geting access to lvl4 mission i normally do with a guidlmate but he normals to lazy, so i would like to know more about how will the lvl4 work.. Thx
X'Alor	Posted - 2005.06.14 15:23:00 - [20] Originally by: Zrakor We aren't totally destroying soloability of level 4 missions in this patch, but they are gradually becoming harder, and for some who could barely do them pre-patch they probably will be 'unsoloable' after the patch. With Kali we expect the mission rewards to be sharable, including standing gain, and that's when we truely intend to make the biggest difficulty overhaul. WOW you mean a "slight" increase. Since when you guys do anything slightly? j/k I can see a slight increase. Was under the impression of a massive increase along how lvl 4's came out. Out of curiousity, is there any way you can say anything about lvl 5's and their intentions. I gotta ask ....... any idea when they might be on the drawing board. I figure that one your surprise things and probably when you go for your kali adjustment or are they intended to start appearing before kali? if you can't say, i understand. thanks for clearing up the grade of difficulty increase. As far as the missle adjustment, it will make it interesting for sure. Just wish they'd drop the cruise missle launcher ROF a tiny bit more. PLEASSEEEEEE WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Cruise missles are the rank 5 of missles but yet everyone flies around slinging torp ravens. Why, cuz they are uber to the cruise actually they are uber inside of 20km. the cruise missle should be the uber rank 5 missle that it IS. Lowering the ROF a tiny bit more will help ensure that and give a reason to look forward to training cruise missles once reaching the torp requirement to do so.
MacMillan	Posted - 2005.06.14 16:36:00 - [21] Thanks for posting Zrakor and other guys, good to know the changes will be gradual so that we (I ) can adjust to them as they get harder. I was concerned they would all become instantly impossible. I can do most solo just not the GE Bonus or Damsel for some reason I think the non deadspace lvl4's could do with a little spicing up actually
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.06.14 19:10:00 - [22] Originally by: Zrakor We aren't totally destroying soloability of level 4 missions in this patch, but they are gradually becoming harder, and for some who could barely do them pre-patch they probably will be 'unsoloable' after the patch. With Kali we expect the mission rewards to be sharable, including standing gain, and that's when we truely intend to make the biggest difficulty overhaul. Well, you posted earlier on these forums, that level 4's wasnt meant for groups due to the gap between level 3 to level 4 would become to great and the ability for proper sharing wasn't in place. Deppending on how the missions turn out after the patch, wouldn't that be going back on that and making sure the gap between level 3 and level 4 get even greater than ever and to a extent enforce grouping whether the system is in or not for proper sharing? Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Polarized	Posted - 2005.06.14 22:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Zrakor We aren't totally destroying soloability of level 4 missions in this patch, but they are gradually becoming harder, and for some who could barely do them pre-patch they probably will be 'unsoloable' after the patch. With Kali we expect the mission rewards to be sharable, including standing gain, and that's when we truely intend to make the biggest difficulty overhaul. The way I read this, I'll have to spend money on faction and officer shield booster, shield boost amp, ballistic controls to be able to do missions like I do now.
Static Ga'lraith	Posted - 2005.06.15 04:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Polarized Originally by: Zrakor snip. The way I read this, I'll have to spend money on faction and officer shield booster, shield boost amp, ballistic controls to be able to do missions like I do now. Looks like an isk sink for missions runners then. Balanced, the force is.
Khonsu	Posted - 2005.06.15 08:46:00 - [25] Originally by: Static Ga'lraith Originally by: Polarized Originally by: Zrakor snip. The way I read this, I'll have to spend money on faction and officer shield booster, shield boost amp, ballistic controls to be able to do missions like I do now. Looks like an isk sink for missions runners then. Balanced, the force is. How about the people who are just starting out on level 4s? Getting a ship + fitting is already 200m+, making 500m+ in level 3s to be able to do level 4s just isn't doable. So.. the guys who've already made their cash are untouched, while the new guys are screwed. As alwyas.
The Enslaver	Posted - 2005.06.15 10:31:00 - [26] All it means is that L4's are designed to be harder for people with less experience. You make it sound as if agent running is the only way of making ISK. Believe it or not, there are plenty of other ways. -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.
Waga	Posted - 2005.06.15 10:43:00 - [27] Originally by: The Enslaver You make it sound as if agent running is the only way of making ISK. Believe it or not, there are plenty of other ways. WORD ! [ Waga ]
Khonsu	Posted - 2005.06.15 10:55:00 - [28] Originally by: Waga Originally by: The Enslaver You make it sound as if agent running is the only way of making ISK. Believe it or not, there are plenty of other ways. WORD ! I know, I'm not a new player, only new to level 4 mission But what I said is still true. Raven nerf is sufficient without making the missions harder in addition.
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.06.15 11:32:00 - [29] Lots of people work on the assumption its their God given right to be able to solo level 4 missions as long as they are in a battleship. Zrakors post was perfectly reasonable. If you struggled before, you may find them undoable now. Level 3's are still good money - not great but good. If you find you cant solo a mission - work on those skills, play with those setups and have something to aspire to
The Enslaver	Posted - 2005.06.15 12:15:00 - [30] L4 missions should be unsoloable imo. Raven nerf isn't sufficient, as L4's are still easy in Apocs. -------- FireFoxx80: If you think you can do a better job, go find yourself a datacentre to host a box, get a copy of Visual Studio, and STFU.

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