When exactly unlinked tackle became lacking in terms of range?

I, for one, can say exactly when EVE became overtanked. Surely every issue can be traced down to its origin.

You're illustrating the problem, but not in the way you think you are. Everyone seems to think the Talos gets a range bonus, but it doesn't. the "standard" Talos fits don't even stack up TEs to get range either. So would it help if I'd specified "Hyperion", "Megathron", "Naga", or "Rokh" instead? The fact of the matter is that ranges have been creeping up for many years while point range has stayed steady. The problem is so bad that even unbonused blasters quite thoroughly outrange unlinked point range.

That is to say: you're saying that getting ranged tackle should require a special ship. And I totally agree. Unfortunately, that range is far beyond the 24km we have now.

While I'm familiar with the talos not getting a range bonus, I suppose I forgot that all the other tier 3's do get range bonuses. And yeah, blasters overall, and null ammo specifically has been improved to the point that most blaster ships can fit neutron blasters standard and project damage quite well. The talos can do it with no modifiers other than ranged ammo. But that same performance/projection looks a lot less impressive on less mobile platforms like the mega and hype. The Naga and Rokh have range bonuses and will be fit with tracking enhancers, so they're just doing what they're supposed to do. As you remember, back before hybrids were buffed, they had lingering tracking issues, really terrible damage projection, fitting issues, and hybrid-boats were slow. The complaint was that even if the blasterboat could catch the winmatar ship shooting him in falloff, by the time the blasterboat caught up, the autocannon ship would have already done significant damage, and the slightly better dps of blasters was would never be enough to overcome that disparity, as the autocannons also did more damage at close range. CCP boosted blasters in the usability department as an alternative to making them do so much dps they would be worth using despite the issues.

Obviously this isn't just about blasters, its that any ship with guns and shields loads up on TE's for that sweet sweet damage application. Unless its a frigate because they don't have the spare slots.

So if T2 warp disruptors get boosted to 30km, does that mean 15km can be the range of a standard t2 web?

Now they both have a 5% damage bonus and the secondary bonus reflects their usage. The stabber has a falloff bonus for kiting, the thorax has a tracking bonus for closer range combat (i guess that's why it has it...). The main discrepancy is the that the stabber is using medium guns instead of large ones, like the thorax. But it's not possible to get 425's on the stabber without seriously gimping the EHP by a factor of 10-20%. It's borderline made of paper as it is. But here's a graph of their dps in 0-25km without the stabbers missiles being used or the thoraxes drones being used (so bonused slots only).

http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii606/B1zmark/StabberVersusThoraxNoDrones_zpsbd75bbfb.png

So its basically 22km before the stabbers range bonus becomes useful. Beyond that the story is very 1-sided in favour of the stabber. It has very reliable damage up to around 40km... but since disruptors only go to 24km... that doesn't make any difference.

Oh btw, here's the graph with missile launchers/drones included. But this proves nothing other than the new stabber is trash. And yes, im serious. The rupture is still a better stabber than the stabber due to the combat range of 24km and the Stabbers general sucky slot/turret layout.

http://i1262.photobucket.com/albums/ii606/B1zmark/StabberVersusThoraxwithDrones_zps32d89063.png

So i'm struggling to see how range bonused ships will ever be viable with current combat ranges when brawlers can easily achieve these effective ranges and still have triple the DPS of kiting ships up close. Speed is the only real advantage kiting ships have, but 1 mistake and that advantage is gone. A brawler can make many mistakes in a fight and only has to get 1 slingshot right to win the fight.

Be careful when referring to 'winmatar' btw. Much of what you base your hatred on revolves around gang links and faction mods when you don't have either.

So he goes through a long, complicated, and well thought out argument. It's carefully laid out. You agree with every detail individually, and combined. Then you come up with a completely wrong conclusion.

Amazing.

-Liang

No, you were pretty out and out with your particular bias. You basically said "I'm a brawler and I think kiters should be easy prey".

-Liang

- Scram and web range should be extended as well, but point range should be extended more.

Anyway, I've long noticed what you're pointing out. Don't forget the new Tier 3s, propagation of range bonuses, and rebalanced/buffed ships that dramatically increase the amount of damage flying all over the battlefield. I mostly agree. I'd go a bit further and say a few things:
- Gang links (but not gang bonuses or mindlinks, IMO) should be massively nerfed almost across the board. 50% bonuses are absurd in a game where months of training yields a mere 2%.
- Scram and web range should be extended as well, but point range should be extended more.
- Local active tank modules (reps/boosters) should have their effectiveness dramatically boosted.
- Mobility should not have base effectiveness improved.
- Passive tanking should not have base effectiveness improved.

-Liang

I'll leave the rest for tomorrow (kinda late here), but I think this is a bit of a bad idea, Liang. Blaster brawlers depend on getting in your face to do anything - if you extend the Scram range, you severely weaken their ability to get up close and personal, thereby effectively neutralizing their dps - this is obviously less true for autocannons (good falloff) and pulse lasers (scorch).

Ok. do a graph for when you kill his drones but you stil get to shoot your missiles. Also when you are comparing two pretty much identical layout ships then you have to factor racial differences into it as well.

In this secenario I agree the stabber is very likely to be taken down by the thorax. This is where player skill comes into it as you have a 24km point range which gives you a 2km window to hold un OH'd point and be at an advantage. also remember though with periodic OH'ing you extend that to 28km giving you a much larger window of advantage.

None of this support the original argument of increased point ranges. Just that your window is less than in a similar setup ship.

These are also only for 1v1's in a gang situation the desire for extended point range is probably not even required...that is what tackle is for.

he's and idiot.

There are more of these than any other player out there!

You still have a range advantage on the thorax. It is just that your margin for error is much less with your range advantage being used up in the last 2km of your point range. This is were selective OH'ing or faction/boosted webs will give you a clear advantage. If the standard point range is increased to say 28-30km as suggested then you are immediatly at a greater advantage vs the thorax.

Between the two ships posted I think there is a fair trade off. kite v kite it balances out. The only reason I can see to increase point range would be if brawlers instantly wipe the floor with kiters when they are at range.

Are you on crack? Maybe taking some bad acid?

For a start, people being an idiot is NOT A REASON TO HAVE AN UNBALANCED GAME.

The range advantage DOESNT EXIST. You have never in your life piloted a ship like the stabber if you think holding 22km+ is possible. Btw he STILL out damages you at 22km. With drones it's game over.

Watch the video i linked, watch how the ranges change in a fast VS fast fight (thorax IS a fast ship). Good look if you think you can hold 2 KM distance like you state. You have proven, in that single point, you have no idea what you are talking about.

And btw i've flown the 'ranis for years as well as long range ceptors like the crow. I'm not sitting on 1 side of the fence here. I'ma guy who has perfect gallente and minatar skills and right now i see no point in flying minmatar cruisers when, due to *DISRUPTOR RANGE*, the gallente ones are better in every way

Am i going to stop flying a faction point cynabal? No. But thats the point (pun intended), 30km disruptor range makes that ship viable. If it has a 24km point it's close to worthless when compared, ISK for ISK agaisnt a plethora of other ships of varying prices.

What you are describing is a variation due to racial differences NOT an issue with point range. Get your arguments defined properly before you accuse people of being drug addicts.

I to fly the stabber and it is quickly becoming on of my favourite ship tbh. I often hold range on brawlers and have also done so on kite cruisers. I have died to kite cruisers in my stabbers by making piloting errors. I never claimed it was easy or that it was reliable. Range changes in fast ships are what make it a game of skill more than stat points. I never claimed the thorax is a slow ship. In fact I'm currently fitting up a couple on the recomendation from a corp mate that it flys like a stabber. You are reading too much into my arguments.

However you have not given an reason for points to have extented ranges that hold up to any logical rational counter argument.

Cynabal with faction point is not an argument to increase all point range. It is an expensive pirate cruiser with an expensive fit....of course it is going to be powerfull you can't make the stabber as effective as a cyna without pouring isk into it. This is NOT an argument for increased point range.

Once again you are trying to give reason to increase point range on a flawed argument. When you can formulate some rational reason for increased point range I'll respond.

The only reason you have given to extend point range is my stabber got blown up by someone in a ship that can kill me in my prefered engagement range.

We have finally reached "blaster are op, buff nanos/kiters" stage. If anyone said it two years ago...

- Local active tank modules (reps/boosters) should have their effectiveness dramatically boosted.

Long story short: Brawling ships can be fit for more speed and projection - but kiting ships are limited by combat range and will never be able to brawl more effectively than a close range ship.

This is very dangerous. You don't want to create a situation where solo PVP or small gangs of small stuff can be permatanked. You had this issue when ASBs were first introduced.

I'm of the opinion that active tanks can never be balanced to be truly effective in PVP without breaking situations with low incoming DPS.

The proposal is that active tanking becomes viable without links. But I guess you must really love your links now, eh?

Ed: The irony of you defending links is not lost on me. I guess that means you don't AWOX your link pilots anymore?

No, the reason as clearly stated in the OP, subsiquent replies and by other people is this:

New modules, ship and weapon balancing has resulted in a marked increase in range for all weapons. Rigs and Tracking enhancers (the later being buffed shortly to include missile) both give large bonuses to range. However despite the range of weapon increasing for several years, no increase has been made to the base range of tackle.

Without fitting faction point and/or gang links, range bonused ships cannot take advantage of their bonuses. They are forced to commit inside a range that ALL unbonused ships are able to fight at without any increase in DPS over these ships. These 'close-range' ships, however, have other bonuses that make up for the lack of range which makes them simply *better* options when not flying faction/linked.

Making any sense?

You're illustrating the problem, but not in the way you think you are. Everyone seems to think the Talos gets a range bonus, but it doesn't. the "standard" Talos fits don't even stack up TEs to get range either. So would it help if I'd specified "Hyperion", "Megathron", "Naga", or "Rokh" instead?

Anyway, I've long noticed what you're pointing out. Don't forget the new Tier 3s, propagation of range bonuses, and rebalanced/buffed ships that dramatically increase the amount of damage flying all over the battlefield. I mostly agree. I'd go a bit further and say a few things:
- Gang links (but not gang bonuses or mindlinks, IMO) should be massively nerfed almost across the board. 50% bonuses are absurd in a game where months of training yields a mere 2%.
- Scram and web range should be extended as well, but point range should be extended more.
- Local active tank modules (reps/boosters) should have their effectiveness dramatically boosted.
- Mobility should not have base effectiveness improved.
- Passive tanking should not have base effectiveness improved.

-Liang

When tracking enhancers added 30% falloff to every gun in the game. Did you not read my OP? *sigh* TL;DR replies as usual.

Isn't the problem rather a beyond-point reach ontop of a beyond-cruiser speed on a BC hull with BS turrets?

It's the constant reminder why you shouldn't design on basis of popularity, because popular is often wrong and stupid.