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Commander Ted Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance 394	Posted - 2013.01.09 20:33:00 - [1] - Quote Seems like recently CCP's balancing efforts have focused on face melting dps and speed rather than tank. I like the idea of having a brick tank but the thing is in most cases in solo pvp it is not competitive. Unless your sitting on a warp in, your foe is sitting in a unventilated airtight room that was just painted, or they want to die their is nothing you can do when being kited to save you. At a frigate level you can pull a sling maneuver against an unaware foe but in cruisers up this is not possible. Then if you somehow do have a method of stopping their DPS with a tracking disruptor or some other trick your opponent can leave whenever they want. If you fit a disruptor then they just burn slightly farther out and then leave. Their needs to be some way of making both types of setup competitive. If it was like rock paper scissors then the rock is beater by paper and paper just floats away from scissors leaving rock and scissors to beat on each other. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 3307	Posted - 2013.01.09 20:36:00 - [2] - Quote Allpha Tacklers EW To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Mr Pragmatic 487	Posted - 2013.01.09 20:52:00 - [3] - Quote Armor speed tank ftw. Vote for me in the next CSM Elections. I will fight for the interest of all Hi-sec dwellers. No longer will you be cast aside and disparaged.
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 1468	Posted - 2013.01.09 20:54:00 - [4] - Quote was there a question in there somewhere? or a point? im not finding one. *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
Sergeant Acht Scultz School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 448	Posted - 2013.01.09 20:57:00 - [5] - Quote Mr Pragmatic wrote: Armor speed tank ftw. 2013 best joke ever ! I'll be smiling for a long while thanks to you, many thanks good sir
Ottersmacker Genos Occidere HYDRA RELOADED 328	Posted - 2013.01.09 21:23:00 - [6] - Quote jakes on you i just locked an open door.. strange, yet symbolically compelling.
Commander Ted Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance 394	Posted - 2013.01.09 22:01:00 - [7] - Quote Ranger 1 wrote: EW Tacklers Alpha Ill just warp away if you use any ewar. A cynabal will tear your tacklers to shred and having tackle isnt solo How many tornadoes is solo? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Aren Madigan EVE University Ivy League 8	Posted - 2013.01.09 22:37:00 - [8] - Quote Commander Ted wrote: Ranger 1 wrote: EW Tacklers Alpha Ill just warp away if you use any ewar. A cynabal will tear your tacklers to shred and having tackle isnt solo How many tornadoes is solo? So if your first reaction to EWAR is to warp away... want do you do if you get scrambled AND EWARed?
Commander Ted Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance 394	Posted - 2013.01.09 22:40:00 - [9] - Quote Aren Madigan wrote: So if your first reaction to EWAR is to warp away... want do you do if you get scrambled AND EWARed? 1. If the ewar is enough to make it impossible for me to kill someone then I leave. 2. How am I going to be scrambled if im faster than you? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Rath Kelbore Eviscerate. 354	Posted - 2013.01.09 22:42:00 - [10] - Quote Why should a slow tanky ship be viable in solo pvp?? I plan on living forever.......so far, so good.
SmilingVagrant GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1322	Posted - 2013.01.09 22:48:00 - [11] - Quote Commander Ted wrote: Aren Madigan wrote: So if your first reaction to EWAR is to warp away... want do you do if you get scrambled AND EWARed? 1. If the ewar is enough to make it impossible for me to kill someone then I leave. 2. How am I going to be scrambled if im faster than you? Countering your point: Who gives a **** about 1 on 1 pvp? It happens so rarely outside of a gank that it's not worth mentioning when discussing ship balance in any way. I'd much rather they balance around gangs anyways. There are plenty of pretty crappy solo ships that when put together into a critical mass suddenly become pvp gods. If a rapier and an arazu engage eachother in the woods, does anyone care?
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 3310	Posted - 2013.01.09 22:55:00 - [12] - Quote Commander Ted wrote: Ranger 1 wrote: EW Tacklers Alpha Ill just warp away if you use any ewar. A cynabal will tear your tacklers to shred and having tackle isnt solo How many tornadoes is solo? Not if you are tackled, or in something that can be alpha'd. Not if you are jammed, and nobody mentioned a thing about solo. Again, nobody in this thread mentioned solo (including you until just now). If you want to discuss solo hunting, there are plenty of examples on how to do it correctly in a heavily tanked ship... if you are clever enough to use agression and gates to your advantage. However I don't think solo game play is (or ever will be) high on CCP's design priorities. To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Aren Madigan EVE University Ivy League 8	Posted - 2013.01.09 22:57:00 - [13] - Quote Commander Ted wrote: Aren Madigan wrote: So if your first reaction to EWAR is to warp away... want do you do if you get scrambled AND EWARed? 1. If the ewar is enough to make it impossible for me to kill someone then I leave. 2. How am I going to be scrambled if im faster than you? By me warping on top of you after probing you out? :p Anyways, typically the fast high DPS ships need to get in close anyways to have their full effect. Won't always be guaranteed, but really, guerilla tactics are the specialty of fast ships either way. Kind of just gotta deal with it. The game isn't perfectly balanced, but the ships fill out their roles just fine for the most part. Can't really expect a battleship to keep up with a frigate for example. Some are just meant to be the fast ships that are near impossible to swat, but there are ways. And if they balanced for solo, it'd screw up the fleet balancing.
The CandyGirl the unified Negative Ten. 33	Posted - 2013.01.09 23:00:00 - [14] - Quote Why are you complaining that something isn't balanced for solo pvp in a mmo..... Boggles the mind doesn't it
Commander Ted Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance 394	Posted - 2013.01.09 23:00:00 - [15] - Quote Aren Madigan wrote: By me warping on top of you after probing you out? :p Anyways, typically the fast high DPS ships need to get in close anyways to have their full effect. Won't always be guaranteed, but really, guerilla tactics are the specialty of fast ships either way. Kind of just gotta deal with it. The game isn't perfectly balanced, but the ships fill out their roles just fine for the most part. Can't really expect a battleship to keep up with a frigate for example. Some are just meant to be the fast ships that are near impossible to swat, but there are ways. And if they balanced for solo, it'd screw up the fleet balancing. You don't pvp much do you. If im not moving and you probe me out im a terrible pilot, and since when do fights occur in safe spots, the high dps fast ship will only burn in close if he is an idiot or has an obvious advantage (like you already almost being dead). Secondly im not talking about battleships and frigates im talking about cruiser versus cruiser. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
ACE McFACE Holy Amarrian Battlemonk I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth 1055	Posted - 2013.01.09 23:00:00 - [16] - Quote SmilingVagrant wrote: Commander Ted wrote: Aren Madigan wrote: So if your first reaction to EWAR is to warp away... want do you do if you get scrambled AND EWARed? 1. If the ewar is enough to make it impossible for me to kill someone then I leave. 2. How am I going to be scrambled if im faster than you? Countering your point: Who gives a ** about 1 on 1 pvp? It happens so rarely outside of a gank** that it's not worth mentioning when discussing ship balance in any way. I'd much rather they balance around gangs anyways. There are plenty of pretty crappy solo ships that when put together into a critical mass suddenly become pvp gods. If a rapier and an arazu engage eachother in the woods, does anyone care? Just no. Awaits 10000s of goons telling me I'm wrong. "No one drove in New York, there was too much traffic."
Commander Ted Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance 394	Posted - 2013.01.09 23:00:00 - [17] - Quote The CandyGirl wrote: Why are you complaining that something isn't balanced for solo pvp in a mmo..... Boggles the mind doesn't it because it can be fixed. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
SmilingVagrant GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1322	Posted - 2013.01.09 23:02:00 - [18] - Quote Commander Ted wrote: The CandyGirl wrote: Why are you complaining that something isn't balanced for solo pvp in a mmo..... Boggles the mind doesn't it because it can be fixed. It doesn't need fixing.
Commander Ted Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance 394	Posted - 2013.01.09 23:04:00 - [19] - Quote SmilingVagrant wrote: Commander Ted wrote: The CandyGirl wrote: Why are you complaining that something isn't balanced for solo pvp in a mmo..... Boggles the mind doesn't it because it can be fixed. It doesn't need fixing. How would you know. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
sabre906 Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice 563	Posted - 2013.01.10 00:32:00 - [20] - Quote With every passing second additional Winmatar will show up for the gangbang, and you can't catch any of them. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454
Roime Shiva Furnace 1583	Posted - 2013.01.10 00:38:00 - [21] - Quote Lol, there's a thread in Ships & Modules where kiters demand more point range. I guess some people are never happy until game mechanics provide them automatic kills. My claim: EVE is more balanced than ever, across ship and weapon types, and will only get better after the next balancing pass. Fly out there and have fun. Shiva Furnace is recruiting! Small gang PVP in wormholes and lowsec.
Garreth Vlox Shield and Shovel Mining Corp 116	Posted - 2013.01.10 02:08:00 - [22] - Quote Commander Ted wrote: Aren Madigan wrote: So if your first reaction to EWAR is to warp away... want do you do if you get scrambled AND EWARed? 1. If the ewar is enough to make it impossible for me to kill someone then I leave. 2. How am I going to be scrambled if im faster than you? Fit an MWD and shield tank your ****, speed issue resolved. The LULZ Boat.
Commander Ted Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance 395	Posted - 2013.01.10 02:11:00 - [23] - Quote Garreth Vlox wrote: Commander Ted wrote: Aren Madigan wrote: So if your first reaction to EWAR is to warp away... want do you do if you get scrambled AND EWARed? 1. If the ewar is enough to make it impossible for me to kill someone then I leave. 2. How am I going to be scrambled if im faster than you? Fit an MWD and shield tank your ****, speed issue resolved. Moa vs caracal which one is going to be faster? Drake vs hurricane? Cynabal vs anything? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Mars Theran Red Rogue Squadron 1594	Posted - 2013.01.10 02:58:00 - [24] - Quote Pirate faction ships have some amazing capabilities, but they cost a lot too. Personally, I'd like to solo PvP in one, but cannot rationalize the expense when I know I'm not going to have fair odds against me. Fact is, most players simply will not enter an engagement without knowing they can deagress and jump or dock, or have logi support and or additional ships to help them. It's rare enough that a solo PvPer only faces 2 opponents; more often it's anywhere from 3-6, and more if they have the time to get more. Strangely, you can actually ECM jam out a suspect in a Proteus in Highsec with dozens of people watching, get him to fly off station, out of docking range, scram him, and nobody will even think of joining the fight just to kill his ship. I've actually done this, and I pretty much had to watch him fly back to station unopposed. I didn't have webs on him, but one person showing up with them, and some decent DPS, would have almost guaranteed his ship being killed. It's quite possible his logis would have popped out if they had, but aside from repping, a logi isn't much threat. That, and I probably could have jammed them too, or someone else could have. So maybe 3 T1 cruisers, (2 Blackbirds and a Rupture), to kill a high resist buffer tank Proteus with 2 Logi's for support. ..provided he lets himself get caught unprepared. Chances are, if he's confident enough, he will, once. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Commander Ted Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance 396	Posted - 2013.01.10 03:04:00 - [25] - Quote My proposal that I put up in features and ideas is to buff web drones. 5 web drones of any size would equal 60% webs. They can be blown up easily and still be outran but provide a good chance of forcing an opponent into a distance where you have a chance. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Rain6639 Team Evil 56	Posted - 2013.01.10 03:06:00 - [26] - Quote Commander Ted wrote: Ranger 1 wrote: EW Tacklers Alpha Ill just warp away if you use any ewar. A cynabal will tear your tacklers to shred and having tackle isnt solo How many tornadoes is solo? ok imaginary battles or that magnum PI faux tan... one or the other if you need me, I'll be on youtube watching russian car accident videos
Olleybear I R' Carebear 169	Posted - 2013.01.10 03:56:00 - [27] - Quote Commander Ted wrote: Seems like recently CCP's balancing efforts have focused on face melting dps and speed rather than tank. I like the idea of having a brick tank but the thing is in most cases in solo pvp it is not competitive. How do we make it so speed isn't the only way to be competitive solo? You are correct that a pilot who knows how to fly a shield/gank/speed fit is not going to be caught by a brick armor tanker. This is by design. Each ship setup, whether shield or armor tank, has its own particular use in different kinds of fights. This is good because it gives us more variety and allows us to setup our ships for different situations. Afterall, why even have shield tanking and armor tanking if there isn't a difference between the two? Your frustration is understandable but misplaced. Your making a common mistake that a lot of pilots make, which is using the wrong fit for the job and trying to force that fit work because you like it. Dont let yourself get into that mindset. The solution is to either develop tactics so you can grab and hold that speedy bugger, or change your ship fitting so you are speedy as well. Adapt and have fun doing it. Fly safe. When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.
Commander Ted Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance 396	Posted - 2013.01.10 04:05:00 - [28] - Quote Olleybear wrote: You are correct that a pilot who knows how to fly a shield/gank/speed fit is not going to be caught by a brick armor tanker. This is by design. Each ship setup, whether shield or armor tank, has its own particular use in different kinds of fights. This is good because it gives us more variety and allows us to setup our ships for different situations. Afterall, why even have shield tanking and armor tanking if there isn't a difference between the two? Your frustration is understandable but misplaced. Your making a common mistake that a lot of pilots make, which is using the wrong fit for the job and trying to force that fit work because you like it. Dont let yourself get into that mindset. The solution is to either develop tactics so you can grab and hold that speedy bugger, or change your ship fitting so you are speedy as well. Adapt and have fun doing it. Fly safe. So what exactly are the maller and moa good at countering except other brick tankers? Not to be mean to the developers but I think you give them to much credit. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Olleybear I R' Carebear 169	Posted - 2013.01.10 04:34:00 - [29] - Quote Commander Ted wrote: So what exactly are the maller and moa good at countering except other brick tankers? Refer to my rock paper scissors analogy in the first post. Not to be mean to the developers but I think you give them to much credit. I dont fly amarr so am unable to comment about those specific ships. Unfortunately I am at work at the moment and cant really start looking at them in depth. Perhaps someone who does fly them can comment? I can say that the cruiser rebalance has made many more cruisers useful in pvp. For instance, the caracal is a much better ship than it was before, is faster than the rupture, and puts out nearly the same dps with heavy assaults. The caracal is now a fine ship. The credit I am given to the developers on the cruiser rebalance is deserved. Why? Much more pvp is occurring with them. When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.
Commander Ted Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance 396	Posted - 2013.01.10 04:43:00 - [30] - Quote Olleybear wrote: I dont fly amarr so am unable to comment about those specific ships. Unfortunately I am at work at the moment and cant really start looking at them in depth. Perhaps someone who does fly them can comment? I can say that the cruiser rebalance has made many more cruisers useful in pvp. For instance, the caracal is a much better ship than it was before, is faster than the rupture, and puts out nearly the same dps with heavy assaults. The caracal is now a fine ship. The credit I am given to the developers on the cruiser rebalance is deserved. Why? Much more pvp is occurring with them. So you just cited an excellent kiting ship as coming ahead in this rebalance. What exactly in the cruiser lineup is good at killing caracals? If you said something fast then your a winner! Now if I am something slow with dps that can even reach out their like a armor vexor then my target still can just leave or kill the drones. The maller and moa are very slow and very tanky ships that put out meh dps. Thats about it, a brawling dps boat can spank them and they are the perfect targets for kiters. They aren't bad ships it is just they are easily countered. All ships slower than kiters get killed by kiters when they fly correctly. So the problem is fast things kill slow things and fast things are killed by fast things. Slow things can't kill fast things unless they suck so slow things just fight other slow things. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.

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