Armor speed tank ftw.

EW
Tacklers
Alpha

Ill just warp away if you use any ewar.
A cynabal will tear your tacklers to shred and having tackle isnt solo
How many tornadoes is solo?

So if your first reaction to EWAR is to warp away... want do you do if you get scrambled AND EWARed?

1. If the ewar is enough to make it impossible for me to kill someone then I leave.
2. How am I going to be scrambled if im faster than you?

Ill just warp away if you use any ewar.
A cynabal will tear your tacklers to shred and having tackle isnt solo
How many tornadoes is solo?

1. If the ewar is enough to make it impossible for me to kill someone then I leave.
2. How am I going to be scrambled if im faster than you?

By me warping on top of you after probing you out? :p Anyways, typically the fast high DPS ships need to get in close anyways to have their full effect. Won't always be guaranteed, but really, guerilla tactics are the specialty of fast ships either way. Kind of just gotta deal with it. The game isn't perfectly balanced, but the ships fill out their roles just fine for the most part. Can't really expect a battleship to keep up with a frigate for example. Some are just meant to be the fast ships that are near impossible to swat, but there are ways. And if they balanced for solo, it'd screw up the fleet balancing.

Countering your point: Who gives a **** about 1 on 1 pvp? It happens so rarely outside of a gank that it's not worth mentioning when discussing ship balance in any way. I'd much rather they balance around gangs anyways. There are plenty of pretty crappy solo ships that when put together into a critical mass suddenly become pvp gods.

If a rapier and an arazu engage eachother in the woods, does anyone care?

Why are you complaining that something isn't balanced for solo pvp in a mmo.....

Boggles the mind doesn't it

because it can be fixed.

It doesn't need fixing.

1. If the ewar is enough to make it impossible for me to kill someone then I leave.
2. How am I going to be scrambled if im faster than you?

Fit an MWD and shield tank your ****, speed issue resolved.

Ill just warp away if you use any ewar.
A cynabal will tear your tacklers to shred and having tackle isnt solo
How many tornadoes is solo?

Seems like recently CCP's balancing efforts have focused on face melting dps and speed rather than tank. I like the idea of having a brick tank but the thing is in most cases in solo pvp it is not competitive.

How do we make it so speed isn't the only way to be competitive solo?

You are correct that a pilot who knows how to fly a shield/gank/speed fit is not going to be caught by a brick armor tanker. This is by design.

Each ship setup, whether shield or armor tank, has its own particular use in different kinds of fights. This is good because it gives us more variety and allows us to setup our ships for different situations. Afterall, why even have shield tanking and armor tanking if there isn't a difference between the two?

Your frustration is understandable but misplaced. Your making a common mistake that a lot of pilots make, which is using the wrong fit for the job and trying to force that fit work because you like it. Dont let yourself get into that mindset.

The solution is to either develop tactics so you can grab and hold that speedy bugger, or change your ship fitting so you are speedy as well.

Adapt and have fun doing it. Fly safe.

So what exactly are the maller and moa good at countering except other brick tankers? Refer to my rock paper scissors analogy in the first post. Not to be mean to the developers but I think you give them to much credit.

I dont fly amarr so am unable to comment about those specific ships. Unfortunately I am at work at the moment and cant really start looking at them in depth. Perhaps someone who does fly them can comment?

I can say that the cruiser rebalance has made many more cruisers useful in pvp. For instance, the caracal is a much better ship than it was before, is faster than the rupture, and puts out nearly the same dps with heavy assaults. The caracal is now a fine ship.

The credit I am given to the developers on the cruiser rebalance is deserved. Why? Much more pvp is occurring with them.

Basically what slow ships need is something like a web or scram that can reach out to range. Not something like a 20km scram or web, but something counter-able like webifier drones. A brawling ship can fit them and still work but it has obvious tradeoffs. A kiting ship can still engage them, but now the brawler has a chance of taking on a kiter and landing a scram.

You realize that whatever drones an armor tanker can use a shield tanker can use as well right?

Your using the wrong tool for the job when trying to use armor / slow vs shield / speed. It is that simple. Each kind of tanking has its place in eve but not in all situations.

If you cant learn to accept that, you will continue to die, get mad(er), and eventually quit playing. You wont have anyone to blame but yourself for not adapting.

If you can learn to accept that, you will become a better pilot and have much more fun.

Answer this:
Slower ships < faster ships
Slower ships > ______

Then lets pretend that armor ships are just as fast as shield ships.

What would happen?

Answer this:
Slower ships < faster ships
Slower ships > ______

When it is said that one "uses right tool for right task" in EVE it doesn't mean that you play rock-paper-scissors with ship hulls while roaming low or NPC null. That is just one task that is typically solved by a single kind of tool which is about ability to pick fights, avoid being caught and picking on ships that most probably won't win. Sometimes it is done with slow ships that can cloak, but for most ships mobility is the only viable option. Tbh I don't see this changing until improbable appearance of arena fights in EVE (aside from AT and the like).

When you have other tasks at hand (like surviving massive fleet alpha from very long range; killing huge immobile object you'd rather kill and maybe take losses rather than flee and let it live, like capital or hub; controlling a wormhole aperture that isn't moving anywhere), then you have to pick another tool, which most probably will be a brick tank, big gun and wing coherence.

Take wormholers for example. When they fight on their (or their temporary neighbour's) turf, they brick tank everything and don't know any logi other than Guardian and Archon, and their composition for attempts on cap kills will be largely the same. However, for lowsec roams they will jump into shield 'canes, Taloses and the like, sometimes new nano'd cruisers like Stabber or Omen (yes). Maybe nano HACs as well, I don't know how good they fare these days. And that is picking right tool for the task.

, also who the **** kites in an armour SFI?

My proposal that I put up in features and ideas is to buff web drones. 5 web drones of any size would equal 60% webs. They can be blown up easily and still be outran but provide a good chance of forcing an opponent into a distance where you have a chance.

Yes I can't see any trouble or how it would be OP using 5 light web drones for a total 60% strength +1 web/scram fit on my ship.

Armor ships issues to pin faster stuff is not the web or whatever drones, it's the poorly designed badly implemented idea that ships with the shortest range weapon systems should also be the slower ones. For a silly choice it's a very silly one.

Why should I have to limit my ship choice to only a couple of hulls that all fly eerily similar? I wan't to go solo is something slow, that reduces my available targets MASSIVELY and its dumb. You could do a whole slew of things to give tanky vessels an edge over speed. I say buff web drones! Make a flight of lights do -60% speed! More ship viable choices are better and add more flavor to the game.

As for those fleets you cited, why would those fleets bring moa's, mallers, ruptures, thoraxes, and vexors? They wouldn't because they still get alpha'ed and their dps is mediocre. If the counter to a speed ship is a group of alpha ships, something is OP. It's not like it is even relevant because this thread relates mostly to balance in a solo situation.

text.

Their aren't really any droneless speedsters outside frigates (who have small guns). The only one that comes to mind for me is the stabber, which can outrun web drones I believe, or at least long enough to kill them with its guns. The different between drones and a mounted web on a specialized ship is drones can be blown up and take time to catch up. On fast enough ships they may never catch up ever making them perfectly balanced. Then when you loose those drones your advantage is lost. It would be way less effective in practice than a ship mounted web and in a strict 1v1 scenario would provide only a momentary chance to "Reel in" an opponent. Especially on ships with less than 5 drones.

As for large fleets I really think they are irrelevant to the matter.

Hisec wardecs are an area I am well versed in and kiting has an advantage their as well. Ganking someone on an undock with high dps bricks is a good job for tanky ships but it is a tiny and highly situational niche. I mean the vindicator serves that roll well. Yet say for example you undock in something slow and the enemy is in something fast and you engage, what happens? The same thing that would happen if you two met in a safespot or off a gate, he kites you and you die or he runs away. Sure you may be able to tank it long enough to redock but seriously what roll does that accomplish other than official fleet blue balls vessel?

Also Eve not being fair or a arena sandbox is not a argument for why certain ships have to be **** at certain roles. "Games not fair" doesn't mean different flying styles can't be on equal footing in a strict 1v1 scenario which is encountered more often than you think. My web drone idea is far less OP than it sounds when you think about it. The only major problem is that it is dangerous to frigate tacklers, but unless it is a giant swarm of the things being deployed the fragility of them will let frigs make short order of them.

Armor speed tank ftw.

How about making the web drones medium sized?
Aren't most speedy ships mostly turret ships with limited dronebay?
(probably a silly question, but my curiosity wins over my sense of pride this time around)

... Fit to hit fast stuff, and poor on so much dmg theyre dead before they can get away.

Proposal: Change webifiers to work on power vs range principle.

Problem: Webifiers are an "all or nothing" weapon. If you've got a webifier with a 10km range and 50% speed dampening, then your target loses 50% speed out 9,999m range and suffers no effect at all at 10,001m range. This makes no sense.

Example: Take webifier that slows 50% out to 10km. Now change that to 50% at optimal range of 10km, and then add falloff to create a maximum range, with the slowing reduced as range increases. So, for example, your 50%/10km webifier might only slow to 25% at 15km, 10% at 20km and so on, until it finally stops having any effect at all after it's falloff limit range.

Also, are there any low-slot modules that boost webifiers in any way?