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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
305
   |
Posted - 2013.01.13 17:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Generally my advice to traders is to not get sucked into updating wars; they invariably lead to burnout, and then you lose more money in the long run by trading less or quitting trading altogether. However, there are inarguably times when it is a good idea or rational tactic, including, but not limited to:
1) New traders
Sometimes the only advantage a new player has is that he's still fresh to the trading game, and full of spunk and vigor. He's going up against richer and more experienced players with numerous critical advantages over him, so the only thing he can do is trade "harder".
2) Defending an established market from new entrants
Sometimes the best defence of a lucrative market is just to make it unbearable for new entrants. By spending some time trading "hard" in the short term you save yourself a lot of combined smaller efforts in the future through limiting the competition over the long term.
3) Grabbing rare opportunities
Sometimes the market will swing such that spreads become temporariliy extremely lucrtaive. In this case it's worth making those buy and sell orders because the added effort is offset by the potential return.
With the above in mind, the purpose of this thread is to gather as many tactics and tricks for updating orders as we can, and present them in an easy format for traders to use. I personally enjoy market play quite a bit, and I want other people to play it too. The more skilled traders there are, the more interesting and compelling the gameplay is for everyone. Therefore, I personally am not afraid of a little competition, and happily share almost all of my experince and knowledge. I'm looking for other traders who fell similarly to help in this quick effort. If you want to keep all your sooperseekrit techniques to yourself, then fine, but please spare us hearing about it.
So far I have:
1) Multiple orders
The trick here is to split your orders into multiple smaller stacks, and then update them as if they were from multiple different people. Not only does this allow you greater updating coverage, but it also makes the market appear far more competitive than it actually is, and other traders are more likely to pull their orders altogether and look for a "less competitive" market.
2) Subtle price changes
The trick here is to update the price in ways that other traders may miss, and then update there's to fall below (or above) your order, thereby wasting an update and getting frustrated. The most common way to do this is change one "9" among many to an 8 (999,999.99 to 999,989.98) or change a number at the front end as well as the back end (18132999.89 to 18123999.88), but the list is really only limited by your creativity and grasp of the human psyche.
3) Never actually change by only 0.01 isk
A simple tactic. The most common change is by 0.01 isk, so you may be updating at the same time as a competitor, and only tie or fail to beat his concurrent update. By changing a few cents more, you are far more liekly to have your update actually be the most competitive bid.
4) The perfect order
The tactic here is to update your orders in ways that your competitors choose not to outbid you, done by a clever combination of order size and price change. If your competition has large order sizes, then they may be hesitant to follow an even marginal unit price change because of how it will affect the value of their entire stack. If your marginal price change is of the right size, they may "let it pass" in hope that your order is quickly filled, and the market then moves back to their price. By continually replacing your perfect order as they clear, you can trade a large volume right under the nose of your competition while they are patiently waiting for "their turn". |
Yvormessier
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 18:13:00 -
[2] - Quote
Updating buy orders and sell orders are 2 entirely different things.
When I set sell orders I always go by the doctrine of 'flying space'
i.e. when I set a sell order I want to make it attractive enough to persuade people to fly several jumps to buy it. It always amuses me to see people undercut my sell price by 0.01isk when there item is several jumps away.
Who is going to fly several jumps to save 0.01isk?
So with a 100m item i will always undercut my sell order by anything from 100k to 1m to persuade people to come and fill my sell order.
As for buy orders I love to crash the market. It's my favourite form of market pvp  |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
305
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 18:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Ha, I'm glad I did this already. I only deal with intra-station orders, so would never have thought of the tactics involved in intra-regional trading.
Thanks.
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Nerath Naaris
Pink Winged Unicorns for Peace Love and Anarchy
338
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 19:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
If possible, I do the mouse-wheel-spin "trick". Lot less effort, imo.
If I am forced to update manually, I usually go for whole numbers: less keystrokes and less potential for mistakes as well (the , not registering; not that I speak from experience here  ).
Forum-unbanned since 2011.10.20.
Mangala Solaris for CSM 8 |
fugazii
Slippery Penguin
16
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 19:50:00 -
[5] - Quote
Varius Xeral wrote:
4) The perfect order
The tactic here is to update your orders in ways that your competitors choose not to outbid you, done by a clever combination of order size and price change. If your competition has large order sizes, then they may be hesitant to follow an even marginal unit price change because of how it will affect the value of their entire stack. If your marginal price change is of the right size, they may "let it pass" in hope that your order is quickly filled, and the market then moves back to their price. By continually replacing your perfect order as they clear, you can trade a large volume right under the nose of your competition while they are patiently waiting for "their turn".
or.... what usually happens is traders will just jump your gouge -as there is still a gap, in turn creating the "new" price, which ofc makes the bigger orders have to jump the order. Effectively devaluing your own product for ..
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Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
305
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 19:54:00 -
[6] - Quote
It's a gamble to be sure, but it definitely does work, as I've done it successfully uncountable times. |
fugazii
Slippery Penguin
16
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 20:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
sure it works sometimes, but when it doesn't what are you left with? Selling for an effective loss and a overall devalued market for future sales and manufacturing margins.
Are you planning on leaving the game soon? Do you need to cash out the market as quick as possible as you wont be involved in it again? If the answer is "no" then maybe you should invest in a monocle, as your being a bit short sighted.
|
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
305
|
Posted - 2013.01.13 20:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
You're presuming a lot that doesn't need to be presumed. Notice the judicious use of the word "marginal". |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
338
|
Posted - 2013.01.14 05:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
I go through buy and sell cycles, I.E. buy 100B in goods and resale for 130B isk
Once stocks drop to a certain level, its fun time again..
In the meantime, I usually mod 20-30 orders of my 300 randomly, making sure my competition knows im still there and making sure they update ALL their orders taking up their 2 hours while I randomly and annoyingly scrolly wheel my buy orders.
Once im the only one left, I usually get bored and go pick on an active station against active orders. |
Alex Grison
Grison Interstellar
25
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 00:30:00 -
[10] - Quote
When I want to annoy another trader who is mucking up my market. I will usually just "Donate" 50 tons of mayonaise. Straight to their hangar. |
Sola Mercury
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
41
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 02:32:00 -
[11] - Quote
I like it simple.
I sell when prices are going up
And buy when they go down.
No need for 0.01 ISk boredom
Need to know middle-term value, to avoid losses. |
Yvormessier
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 07:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
If you make regionwide buy orders you will get a fair bit of stuff in low sec which doesn't sell well. Save up a bit of it then cancel a few buy orders dump the stuff on an annoying competitor(hopefully clearing some buy orders in the process) then redo your buy orders at a lower price. |
Huang Mo
Tianxia Inc
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 16:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
My favorite tactic against 0.01 ("zero-one") incrementers is a tactic I call 10-1 ("ten-one"). The idea is to define your break-even price and then march towards that price in only 5-10 increments. If your opponent follow you, you dump your goods on him when you reach the top (making a little profit but for virtually no effort) and then lean back while he is jumping himself to death for no profit.
If works very well. I've won one market war using that tactic against an opponent that was encroaching on my markets. After having identified his markets I placed 10-1 orders all over the place until his profit went to zero and he surrendered :-)
The beauty of it is that if your opponent is online a lot and increment you within a few hours, you don't even need much capital for it to work. |
Alex Grison
Grison Interstellar
27
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 17:58:00 -
[14] - Quote
Updating wars only really **** things up when people try to "show you" by undercutting you by large amounts. |
Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
143
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 18:13:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sola Mercury wrote:I like it simple.
I sell when prices are going up
And buy when they go down.
No need for 0.01 ISk boredom
Need to know middle-term value, to avoid losses.
The turn over rate of this method isn't the best, but if you have the isk and the patience, it's the best way to afk trade. |
Varius Xeral
Galactic Trade Syndicate
323
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 21:49:00 -
[16] - Quote
Thanks for all the input so far. I'm going to give it another weekend, and then I'll add the suggestions to my own as a master list. People can always add more later, but my guess is that the thread will slide into obscurity and be locked sooner rather than later, so get them in now. |
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
88
|
Posted - 2013.01.15 23:06:00 -
[17] - Quote
Regon Trading.
Low sec.
If you regon trade your going to end up with stuff in low sec.
Short term dont resale this just cost of doing regon trading. But it's not a lose it is in fact long term trading.
What you want to do here is let it build up till it's worth picking up or contracting in. As easy as that.
Some times you will bank a mega ton on low sec. aka PI comoditys when they first started up taxs on PI. I had alot of low sec PI coming in.
After taxs alot less but it was worth alot more. Easly made 6bil off what I had in lowsec that cycle.
Cycle Regon Trading is how you out do your short term traders. The one's working at it everyday.
After you max your skills and you should spend time doing short term trading. For exp. in trading and learning the game.
Starting out.
1.) Train skills build isk pocket book to start with. Don't care how you do it. Mine/Mission/Scam/ect.
2.) Take sik pocket book and start station trading short term trades. Till you learn to do good with that. Watch markets learn how to tell what's coming next.
3.) Expand to semi-Regon trading. Open up your starmap and find out how many jumps to closest low sec and set your trades just short of that to stay in High sec. Get a feel for how that works.
4.) Expand again to Regon Trading. Learn Contracts how they work how to use them to move your goods around for you.
5.) Get good at long term region trading. Learn how to spend a few houres each week Regon trading and bring in a few bil each month with little effort as you play EVE doing something else.
6.) Profit blow people up and be happy eve player :)
Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here. |
LittleTerror
Illuminated Foundation Trust
35
|
Posted - 2013.03.30 18:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:
In the meantime, I usually mod 20-30 orders of my 300 randomly, making sure my competition knows im still there and making sure they update ALL their orders taking up their 2 hours while I randomly and annoyingly scrolly wheel my buy orders.
When you do that I just scroll my mouse wheel a little harder. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
475
|
Posted - 2013.03.30 22:05:00 -
[19] - Quote
LittleTerror wrote:Kara Books wrote:
In the meantime, I usually mod 20-30 orders of my 300 randomly, making sure my competition knows im still there and making sure they update ALL their orders taking up their 2 hours while I randomly and annoyingly scrolly wheel my buy orders.
When you do that I just scroll my mouse wheel a little harder.
Meh, iv seen worse, the kind of worse where I just have to remove all profits for a month by just killing the orders and just go and invent/build whatever I plan to crash and if competitor backs down, Manipulate instead and turn a fatty profit(usually not the case)
hows that for a market trick?
--but but--Then people come on the forums and cry, but but, I read on MD this makes billions with like 2 seconds a month =(
Whatever you read here on MD about investing ISK, either make sure its well detailed or backed up with solid proof, that or your about to become a part of some elaborate trick some one wants to play on a bunch of people all at once, for tears and profits.
the fact of the matter is, the heavier the competition, the more chances your going to get swapped out of the item or items like a hit and run trader, and picture people just like you, tens of them reading that advice doing the same thing, with the same results, BUT thats not the point, now picture how much work it will be to try to stay on top?
Best ISK is passive ISK, but its definitely NOT where you see determined competition, just be creative and dont be greedy. |
LittleTerror
Illuminated Foundation Trust
35
|
Posted - 2013.03.30 23:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Kara Books wrote:LittleTerror wrote:Kara Books wrote:
In the meantime, I usually mod 20-30 orders of my 300 randomly, making sure my competition knows im still there and making sure they update ALL their orders taking up their 2 hours while I randomly and annoyingly scrolly wheel my buy orders.
When you do that I just scroll my mouse wheel a little harder. Meh, iv seen worse, the kind of worse where I just have to remove all profits for a month by just killing the orders and just go and invent/build whatever I plan to crash and if competitor backs down, Manipulate instead and turn a fatty profit(usually not the case) hows that for a market trick? --but but--Then people come on the forums and cry, but but, I read on MD this makes billions with like 2 seconds a month =( Whatever you read here on MD about investing ISK, either make sure its well detailed or backed up with solid proof, that or your about to become a part of some elaborate trick some one wants to play on a bunch of people all at once, for tears and profits. the fact of the matter is, the heavier the competition, the more chances your going to get swapped out of the item or items like a hit and run trader, and picture people just like you, tens of them reading that advice doing the same thing, with the same results, BUT thats not the point, now picture how much work it will be to try to stay on top? Best ISK is passive ISK, but its definitely NOT where you see determined competition, just be creative and dont be greedy.
Not a problem really, I can sell a few items for a loss and still make plenty isk on others... |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
477
|
Posted - 2013.03.30 23:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
LittleTerror wrote:Kara Books wrote:LittleTerror wrote:Kara Books wrote:
In the meantime, I usually mod 20-30 orders of my 300 randomly, making sure my competition knows im still there and making sure they update ALL their orders taking up their 2 hours while I randomly and annoyingly scrolly wheel my buy orders.
When you do that I just scroll my mouse wheel a little harder. Meh, iv seen worse, the kind of worse where I just have to remove all profits for a month by just killing the orders and just go and invent/build whatever I plan to crash and if competitor backs down, Manipulate instead and turn a fatty profit(usually not the case) hows that for a market trick? --but but--Then people come on the forums and cry, but but, I read on MD this makes billions with like 2 seconds a month =( Whatever you read here on MD about investing ISK, either make sure its well detailed or backed up with solid proof, that or your about to become a part of some elaborate trick some one wants to play on a bunch of people all at once, for tears and profits. the fact of the matter is, the heavier the competition, the more chances your going to get swapped out of the item or items like a hit and run trader, and picture people just like you, tens of them reading that advice doing the same thing, with the same results, BUT thats not the point, now picture how much work it will be to try to stay on top? Best ISK is passive ISK, but its definitely NOT where you see determined competition, just be creative and dont be greedy. Not a problem really, I can sell a few items for a loss and still make plenty isk on others...
K, I guess il add you to my watch list or something then?
cos rasberry you started it. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae
Blue Sec
209
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 08:57:00 -
[22] - Quote
My market tool misses nothing and will always 0.1 isk your best order unless it falls out side my high and low margin in which case the number comes up red so I can check the value instead of mindlessly copy and pasting it.
Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Premier Sovian
New Sun Ventures
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 09:10:00 -
[23] - Quote
Huang Mo wrote:My favorite tactic against 0.01 ("zero-one") incrementers is a tactic I call 10-1 ("ten-one"). The idea is to define your break-even price and then march towards that price in only 5-10 increments. If your opponent follow you, you dump your goods on him when you reach the top (making a little profit but for virtually no effort) and then lean back while he is jumping himself to death for no profit.
It works very well. I've won one market war using that tactic against an opponent that was encroaching on my markets. After having identified his markets I placed 10-1 orders all over the place until his profit went to zero and he surrendered :-)
The beauty of it is that if your opponent is online a lot and increment you within a few hours, you don't even need much capital for it to work.
This is pretty much what I do, I just don't have the time to log in and play 0.01 isk games so I'll undercut them until they get bored and leave or it isn't worth cutting them any lower. It helps that I'm into Region Trading and can sell for a lot less than Station Traders can while still making a profit.
It's a fun way to get lots of lovely hate mail from people who think you're not "Doing it right" |
Stigman Zuwadza
Repercussus
RAZOR Alliance
99
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 23:51:00 -
[24] - Quote
Driving up or down the price can sometimes create a new high or low price, experienced traders will continue to trade these items working with the new price. You've done them a great service as you especially are not likely to re-enter the market for that item, you've helped squeeze out the other wannabes and you've probably increased the market share for most of the persistent traders that remain with that line. Overall you've helped them increase their profits whilst walking away yourself with little to none.
Heavy price reductions or increases do work in helping to control prices and ensuring that additional competition isn't attracted to the item being traded, however, frantic price cutting or raising just makes it seem like you've have lost your cool. My 2 cents to people that get margin trade scammed, don't trade in items you're not familiar with ..evidently these folks should also heed this advice.
When these folks 'dump' their stock onto other people, it should be remembered that the other person set the price and the quantity, from what I can see all they've done is helped to fulfill someone's order quicker and at a price they can still work with.
In the long run if you're operating like this I can only imagine that you spend more time than you need to trying to find the next opportunity because you've basically destroyed the supposed good deal that you only just discovered.
I can see these kind of tactics working as exit strategies if you really have found a duff line or need to liquidate quickly but as ongoing trading strategy you probably haven't picked the best way.
These are the bios from one of my competitors:
.01 isk me, I ******* dare you.
1 isk me, I'll 10 isk you, 10 isk me, I'll 1000 isk you. Don't assume that sell order were approaching isn't also mine. Welcome to Manipulation! ;)
I have to admit that this was probably one of the most agressive traders I have met, however they lasted all of 1 week maybe, I .01 ISKed them all the way. 
Anyways, enough waffle.
Fly safe. o7
Its broken and its been broken for a long time and it'll be broken for some time to come. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3991
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 07:02:00 -
[25] - Quote
Barakach wrote:Sola Mercury wrote:I like it simple.
I sell when prices are going up
And buy when they go down.
No need for 0.01 ISk boredom
Need to know middle-term value, to avoid losses. The turn over rate of this method isn't the best, but if you have the isk and the patience, it's the best way to afk trade.
That's also more or less how I trade, in a nutshell. All my finance "crapola" just helps me to know when prices went down and it's time to buy or when they went high and it's time to sell.
Also, I never "dump" the stock, as it tends to tank the whole market so you might make say 100k on 1-2B of stuff but then only 95k on more 2-3B and then usually buy prices sharply drop so the next would maybe sell for 80k and region orders for 5k.
There's instead a tecnique called "money management" that tells to spread profits over multiple days both to let the market recover and also to eventually let it spike higher for higher resale price.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Premier Sovian
New Sun Ventures
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 09:23:00 -
[26] - Quote
Argh argh, darn forums. |
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