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Askari
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Posted - 2003.07.10 14:48:00 -
[1]
X-post, if you have any comments please post them here :
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=19344
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After todays patch - it is now possible to buy the Production Efficiency skillbook for 250K isk from the NPC market.
I can hear the cheers from the back of the room! and to those of you, i say congratulations, welcome to an already over saturated market.
Now, this is and of itself is ok, it would be better if the science skills were on as well, and some may argue that it is about time (i reluctantly agree it is).
But, now that this skill is available - and so cheaply, there is no way i can maintain any kind of distinct advantage over anyone else that can just wander over, pick up the skill, and 4 weeks later - price match me.
The manufacturing skills are woefully inadequate and no reward is gained from being a manufacturer from the beginning (which i am - from day 1 the servers went live). Im quite miffed about this.
I think, and i dont think i am being selfish, there should be more skills to reward a player for going down this path, that are hard to train and have high pre-requisites.
I basically feel as though i have wasted 10 weeks of training to become a kick ass manufacturer, but now i realise i am just a veteran manufacturer and any new player can
actively compete with me almost as soon as look at the market.
If i thought this is what was going to happen, then i would of gone straight down the
combat pilot path. Anyone else noticed that the combat fighter / npc pirate hunters NEVER need to buy anything of a manufacturer?
They can make their own ammo and missiles, ships and afterburners, etc.
They get all the best modules from pirate loot drops that are far superior to anything on the market for the cost of 200 rounds of ammo. They then sell spare loot drops to other players, thus removing the need of manufacturers as the items they sell are 20% more efficient or 20% more powerful than anything i can make.
The fighter profession is self sustaining, hell, they make more money selling one advanced cargo expander than a pure manufacturer can from selling 10 frigates.
FUBAR. pure, simple, FUBAR.
It is about time CCP made a formal statement about what plans they have for the manufacturers that are supposed to be supplying the player driven market.
Those of you that hang around these forums a lot will know how much i shout the praises of this game, and i hardly ever have a bad thing to say about it, or anyone in it.
As it stands right now, i feel as though i have been duped in to wasting 10 weeks of training and being far inferior to any other player that has gone down the combat path, not just because they can whup my butt in 20 seconds in any combat engagement, but that they can manufacture anything they want and sell it at a LOSS and still make a profit from pirate loot selling...
and to be honest - im finding that very hard to stomach anymore.
Edited by: Askari on 10/07/2003 14:49:46
Edited by: Askari on 10/07/2003 14:50:54
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~= Askari =~
Urza's Factory
http://www.mikeward.uk.com/urzas
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vyperpit
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Posted - 2003.07.10 14:57:00 -
[2]
oh come on m8 these thinsg are going to be great /sacrasm.
now people will be able to build blackbirds and thorax's for 5 mill at pc prices and sell them for 3.8 mill hey you know they market will frive with these :P
nah but honestly these will be good not for market reasons but for persoanl corps the extra effeciancy will help so much.
getting a -4% mins used on a bs production is awsome per lvl.
agree i think the market will become over run with produce but it always was. at least now for the poeple who want to make there own stuff it is a good thing.
Ps. you got the merlin bp yet :P
pps. you know that offer for your guys to merge with us is still there.. come join us you knwo you want to :P
Edited by: vyperpit on 10/07/2003 15:00:06
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Fair Fighting 
Quote stolen from Waagaa Ktlehr who borrowed it from ???
"If you end up in a fair fight, you planned it wrong." (Ehm yeah, or CCP ****ed with the scanner again..) |
Elis Reik
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Posted - 2003.07.10 15:04:00 -
[3]
The same is true (possibly to an even greater extent) with trade. Dedicated traders that created characters geared towards that occupation upon release have been very disadvantaged. My character has a very high charisma as well as trade/social skills and they are having absolutely no effect on my gameplay. There has been no advantage for me to dump skills and attributes into these categories as any player can trade just as effectively as I can right now (assuming they have the ship skills/ships required).
The black market has just made it's debut and is extremely underdeveloped. The trading occupation may need rebalancing but I am eager to know when I'll be able to make use of my high Charisma and my Trade skill?
I also love this game passionately and will rarely complain about it but the issues in trade can be easily fixed by simply enabling the skill bonuses, as opposed to doing nothing at all.
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ScutterOne
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Posted - 2003.07.10 15:23:00 -
[4]
Manufacturing is absolutely dead - it was in disarray before anyway. IM sure Im not the only one with a pile of useless BPs purchased in the first few days which proved a waste of money beacuse of the NPC pirate drop system.
With the addition of 70k rentals on factory slots it became a waste of time to make anything less than a cruiser, and even after that you have to ask yourself if the time would have been better spent piate hunting.
IM not sure in which direction we are being taken, but manufacturing is a dead end at this moment in time.
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Vidar Kentoran
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Posted - 2003.07.10 16:05:00 -
[5]
This post is silly. If someone wants to manufacture, they just make an alt with the production efficiency skill.
Only idiots put the production efficiency skill on their main character because usually it's always travelling around, and you want your industry character to stay where the slots are.
I don't understand how having Production Efficiency on the market changes anything at all... nor how putting the Science skills on the market would change anything.
Creating an alt is trivial and even WITH the skills on the market, it STILL makes far more sense to create an alt.
Edited by: Vidar Kentoran on 10/07/2003 16:05:36
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Lao Tzu
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Posted - 2003.07.10 17:06:00 -
[6]
It just levels the pplaying field for people who don't like to use alts, at long last.
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Adrenalin
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Posted - 2003.07.10 17:20:00 -
[7]
At the moment Manufacturing as a career is dead. Mostly from oversaturation and better NPC drops.
However you are basing your judgement on tier one items. Eve's database already contains items that 'appear' to be player made and are far superior to NPC drops. As an example take a look at the taggart item database (I dont have the link handy)
Once these new item tiers come into play the manufacturing market will much more lucrative than it is now. You will just have to wait it out.
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Adrenalin
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Posted - 2003.07.10 17:21:00 -
[8]
Double Post
Edited by: Adrenalin on 10/07/2003 17:24:32
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Kashre
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Posted - 2003.07.10 23:00:00 -
[9]
If you're refering to techlevel 2 items, once we can produce those, then you shold know that pirates are already droping some tech level 2 "named" items which are better than their "vanilla" tech 2 counterparts which we will be able to produce eventually.
What we REALLY need is for reverse engineering to be implemented, and for all the named items to be saleable on the in-game market. Then there will be a greater diversity of items to sell, and manufacturers might be able to compete with the people who rely on rare loot-drops to get those items instead of making their own.
+++
It's called "low security space" for a reason. |
Lola
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Posted - 2003.07.11 00:27:00 -
[10]
Kashre is totally right. If there are 5 tech levels and 'rare' named version of each item that means that the current market only shows 10% of the potential items in the game. ( I know tech level 2 items are just now being introduced ). Hiding 90% of the available items so it's a 'suprise' when you find rare loot was cool at first but any intellegent player is going to research what's available. That great market system is ruined if any item players want to buy or sell canonly be purchased through spamming the trade channel, the market forum or eveauction.com. I can't see how that 'suprise' aspect can outweigh the fact it totally ruins the market feature. Hopefully they have some sort of idea in mind to remedy this problem.
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Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas. |
Booky
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Posted - 2003.07.11 02:37:00 -
[11]
I too think that all items found from pirates, or anywhere in the game for that matter, should be allowed on the market. This SCC not allowing it is crap and ruins the market.
Spelling corrections welcome, but don't expect me to edit my post. |
Crownan
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Posted - 2003.07.11 10:06:00 -
[12]
The skills that available only at character creation represented the only way to actually have some differences (specializiation) between eve players. Instead of everyone being able to learn every skill, and therefore be able to do everything as well as everyone else, there should be some means to specialize.
Production Efficiency should have remained a character creation skill only.
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cadoris
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Posted - 2003.07.11 11:00:00 -
[13]
I have to say that i'm ot a manufacurer but have thought of all the things that are being said and agree with the original statement.
Manufacturing taes time and money and the fact that you can only sell inferior produce by the nature of the pirate drops means that the trade channel is actually swamped with pirate hunters selling their wares
There are very few career paths that make much sense. I also agree that you need to be able to sell all items on the market, after all thats what a market is!
when i started out i was looking for the best weapons and other equipment on the market but now i know that these are all crap and still dont know enough about all the neames bandied about on the trade channel to know what to buy. so confusing and no info anywhere
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Livak
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Posted - 2003.07.11 12:14:00 -
[14]
"The skills that available only at character creation represented the only way to actually have some differences (specializiation) between eve players."
Skills were never intended to remain character creation only. One of the featues of eve was not tying you to a path, thus the Real Time skill training.
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Diana Merris
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Posted - 2003.07.11 15:20:00 -
[15]
All skills are supposed to be available to everyone. There are still many skills that are only available through character creation which should be put on the market but that is another thread.
The "problem" with being a manufacturer is that other than ships the best modules are NPC drops. There is no point in making weapons because pirate weapons are better.
The answer is Reverse Engineering.
Manufacturing as a career is pointless because you can't sell anything except ships (very high entry cost) and newbie equipment. All non-newbie equipment is pirate drops, if we could make that then manufacturing would be a valid career path.
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Beseb
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Posted - 2003.07.11 18:05:00 -
[16]
I have to chime in on this as well because I am a suffering manufacturer as well.
Open the markets.
Open up the possibilty for new/unique items to be made from specialization or research.
Eliminate rampant BP copying.
I'm 4 days out of PE 5..woo hoo (not)
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Saladin
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Posted - 2003.07.11 22:11:00 -
[17]
I wanted to post my thoughts on this, but waited until I got back from work.
This is really directed to most manufacturers, for I am one of those who actually buys ships, guns, boosters and mods off the market. Think of me as your valued customer.
It seems to me that the manufacturer types were all too happy when they were selling ships for outrageous prices at the beginning of the game. I remember buying a probe for 190k, a vigil for 140k and slasher for 50k. All too often I have paid for items at prices which would yield the manufacturer 500% profit and higher. This by no means was realistic. If profit margins were within reasonable bounds people would not rush to buy bp's or bp copies to make their own ships/equipment.
I basically buy most of my equipment from the market, but when I notice that I am essentially being robbed, I will go out and get a bp. The guns I liked to use cost about 150k on the market. I went and got a bp and discovered that when i made it myself it cost me no more than 30k. Why is it that manufacturers insist on these outrageous prices? I will continue to buy items from the market, but when I feel that the prices are too high I'll get a bp and be done with it. It only makes good financial sense for me and my corp. When you stop those 500% markups people will buy from you. |
MoonDragn
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Posted - 2003.07.11 22:14:00 -
[18]
The simple answer is this. Not everyone can make every item every single minute. There is always going to be somebody who will buy it if its cheap enough.
That said, yes I think if we get the higher level items in game the whole manufacturing system will work much better.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.11 22:32:00 -
[19]
<< It only makes good financial sense for me and my corp. When you stop those 500% markups people will buy from you. >>
You hit upon something that bugged me from the day they implemented blueprints in phase 6 of beta: most manufacturers are greedy, lazy sows.
Most manufacturers don't setup distribution points, opting more to make people come to them even for items they could easily transport to several different locations.
Most manufacturers want immediate profit, instead of providing stock and settling for profit over time.
Most manufacturers are obscene on their price markup.
Now on the ships and distribution, CCP is partially to blame as it's impossible to haul volumes of ships anywhere. But things like having to travel 12 jumps to get emp s ammo in a starting region? Cross a region to restock missiles? Cargo expanders, mining laser and many other 'small' items the people needed with single points of distribution per manufacturer. And then the manufacturers wonder why the market got so competitive so quickly.
Having to travel 24 jumps total from where I was based to pick up ammo daily (and usually buying out the entire station of supply) was more than enough reason to make me go get my own blueprints for ammo. Paying 200%+ for that ammo made me get them all the faster. I'd buy blueprints for any corp I ran for production and manufacture items ourselves as well if that meant the difference between having something on hand. Or having to wait hours for someone to get around to manufacturing them for us.
Edited by: Jash Illian on 11/07/2003 22:34:24
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Jojin
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Posted - 2003.07.12 00:32:00 -
[20]
I donĘt think manufacturing is dead. I think competition is rising to the point where it is not the cash cow it was in the past. Within any given environment people are going to flock the perceived easy roads to riches. Now the manufacturing profession is overloaded and people have to come down to small profit margins to maintain any sort of cash flow.
I just take my production costs and figure in a 25-40% markup depending on the ore make-up and popularity. During peace times; times where people in a region settle on a price, things are pretty nice. Often times there are price wars resulting from someone who wants to undercut your prices by 1ISK so theirs shows up on the market as the best price. This will result in dropping profit percentage to 0% or even going negative to force out the competition. I know this will tick off some people, but it is war and it calls for extreme measures.
Eventually, things will settle in and those who remain will continue to become more skilled and as time goes by the will be the rocks in the market. I only hope new skills or development paths are made so characters donĘt peak out in such a short period of time.
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nails
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Posted - 2003.07.12 01:50:00 -
[21]
I just don't want all these other corps that are building battleships to sell for too little.. Some I have found do not have the patience to wait for the main group of people to train their skills. Battleships are not going to sell like cruisers. It is a very expensive investment, but if your giving them away at just above NPC prices what kind of profit will you be making? We haven't been pushing very hard to sell any. A post in the trade window every now and then when I can remember just to let people know that we sell them, but we are in no rush to sell them.
I honestly do not find build cost to be all that much with production effeciency. It's actually helped out allot, and makes us more money per level.
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http://ota-corps.otaku.jp -- Anime l33t level
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.12 02:05:00 -
[22]
<< I just don't want all these other corps that are building battleships to sell for too little.. Some I have found do not have the patience to wait for the main group of people to train their skills. Battleships are not going to sell like cruisers. It is a very expensive investment, but if your giving them away at just above NPC prices what kind of profit will you be making? We haven't been pushing very hard to sell any. A post in the trade window every now and then when I can remember just to let people know that we sell them, but we are in no rush to sell them.
I honestly do not find build cost to be all that much with production effeciency. It's actually helped out allot, and makes us more money per level. >>
And here's what's wrong with the manufacturers, imo.
Instead of making the battleship, putting it on the market and moving to the next one he waits for someone ready to pay his price. His option but it just allows for competitors to pop up instead of making a market presence now.
People do buy things based on availibility and impulse.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
nails
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Posted - 2003.07.12 02:06:00 -
[23]
We have battleships on the market system as well. :) most people really are not ready to buy yet.
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http://ota-corps.otaku.jp -- Anime l33t level
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Attendant
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Posted - 2003.07.12 02:44:00 -
[24]
There is only one global issue that will make or break (no pun intended) the system:
Entropy.
Things have to wear out and eventually need replacing. Each item must be tagged with some numerical value that tracks damage, wear and tear over time, and eventually degrades the item's performance to the point where you want to replace the whole damn thing. Nothing lasts forever, even your precious battleships must some day be mothballed/recycled.
If CCP makes this happen in a reasonable way, the system will thrive.
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nails
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Posted - 2003.07.12 03:34:00 -
[25]
They originaly did, it was called pvp, but since the only people pvp'ing is Concord I don't see how newbs attacking eachother in Kisogo is going to help the economy.
Edited by: nails on 12/07/2003 03:35:18
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http://ota-corps.otaku.jp -- Anime l33t level
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