EVE Search - Capital Proliferation and Force projection is way too easy in EvE

Check My IP Information

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

Capital Proliferation and Force projection is way too easy in EvE

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]


Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
fukier RISE of LEGION 691	Posted - 2013.01.14 16:21:00 - [1] - Quote Capital Proliferation and Force projection is way too easy in EvE. As it stands you can hotdrop 40 Titians and 40 SC with a full subcap force with just one cyno. My Proposal is to give mass limits on CynoGÇÖs and Titan Jump Bridges to limit the ability to easily hot drop ship across the EVE Universe. The idea is if you want to move more then 8 Titans or 10ish Super Carriers you will need to have more then one active Cyno. A regular Cyno will now have a mass limit of around 20 billion kg. Also if you want to Bridge your fleet you will need more then one Titan (Titan JB mass limit is independent from Cyno Mass limit) Titan JB will now be a two way Worm Hole that has a mass limit of 10 billion kg which is ruff around 50ish battleships. Hopefully if balanced correctly this will make it much harder to move mega fleets around and will allow for more flavor when doing fleet ops. I am not sure if this should also include covert cynos this is up to debate. Also an idea for cap ships is having an independent spool up time for Jump Drives that way you cant just use ET and cap rechargers to move cap fleets fast. TLDR: Cyno now has a mass limit of 20 billion kg (just over 8 Titans or 10 super carriers) Titan Jump Bridge now works as a two way Worm Hole that has a mass limit of 10 billion kg (about 50ish Battleships) Jump Drives now have an independent spool up time to activate (time is 10 min with a new skill that can reduce to 5 min at lev V) At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 691	Posted - 2013.01.14 16:23:00 - [2] - Quote masternerdguy wrote: Titan bridging is fine, the issue if anything is how cheap the fuel to do it is. Blame ice miners for making too much ice. Balance should never be based on cost. See Tiers and Titans for that reason. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 691	Posted - 2013.01.14 16:32:00 - [3] - Quote I am not saying get rid of force projecttion at all... 50 bs of mass is pretty large... I am saying if you want to jump 300 bs you need 6 titans to do so... Which means 6 titans sitting outside a pos is an tempting target to counter hotdrop... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 692	Posted - 2013.01.14 16:47:00 - [4] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: fukier wrote: I am not saying get rid of force projecttion at all... 50 bs of mass is pretty large... I am saying if you want to jump 300 bs you need 6 titans to do so... Which means 6 titans sitting outside a pos is an tempting target to counter hotdrop... Actually what you're asking for is to make it harder to conquer a sytem, when people keep crying that it's already to easy to defend with current sov mechanics. You're also saying that the "proliferation" is a problem, and then saying that you should need to build MORE titans. WTF? PS: Your alliance also holds zero sov apparently. Which means you're asking for nerfs to things that your alliance probably has no real use for. Or is that the problem? You guys can't get sov, and think that this kind of nerf will make it easier for you? What does my alliance affiliation have anything to do with my post. This is my personal opinion not one of my corp or alliance.. I dont care about sov... I have been in sov holding alliance before so whats your point? Or is it you are fixated on logical fallacy... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 692	Posted - 2013.01.14 16:53:00 - [5] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: baltec1 wrote: fukier wrote: I am not saying get rid of force projecttion at all... 50 bs of mass is pretty large... I am saying if you want to jump 300 bs you need 6 titans to do so... Which means 6 titans sitting outside a pos is an tempting target to counter hotdrop... They dont sit outside a POS. Why would he know this? His alliance doesn't have any sov in null to park a titan safely anyways. What a shocker. Wait you can activate a titan bridge inside a pos? Its been years since I used one so I figured the titan had to be outside the pos shield for it to work... If this is the case then titan bridging needs to be moved outside the pos also. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 693	Posted - 2013.01.14 17:13:00 - [6] - Quote Apocryphal Noise wrote: e: capital proliferation? . Sorry used the wrong word... op has been updated. Thanks At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 695	Posted - 2013.01.14 17:53:00 - [7] - Quote Murk Paradox wrote: fukier wrote: Natsett Amuinn wrote: baltec1 wrote: fukier wrote: I am not saying get rid of force projecttion at all... 50 bs of mass is pretty large... I am saying if you want to jump 300 bs you need 6 titans to do so... Which means 6 titans sitting outside a pos is an tempting target to counter hotdrop... They dont sit outside a POS. Why would he know this? His alliance doesn't have any sov in null to park a titan safely anyways. What a shocker. Wait you can activate a titan bridge inside a pos? Its been years since I used one so I figured the titan had to be outside the pos shield for it to work... If this is the case then titan bridging needs to be moved outside the pos also. The nose of the titan can be barely poking out and that allows the titan to make a bridge and everyone inside the pos use the titan to jump, while the titan cannot be shot. That is lame... there should be a min distance the entire titan has to be outside the pos for it to work somethink like 20 km or something reasonable... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 695	Posted - 2013.01.14 18:06:00 - [8] - Quote masternerdguy wrote: If I recall every ship that jumps consumes fuel based on the mass of the ship. So there is a limit based on fuel availability. This is true but the pos can hold enough stront to transport a fleet. This is not a good enough limiting attribute... Having a hard Mass attribute on top of that is a better option. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 696	Posted - 2013.01.14 18:34:00 - [9] - Quote Apocryphal Noise wrote: fukier wrote: masternerdguy wrote: If I recall every ship that jumps consumes fuel based on the mass of the ship. So there is a limit based on fuel availability. This is true but the pos can hold enough stront to transport a fleet. This is not a good enough limiting attribute... Having a hard Mass attribute on top of that is a better option. ....stront? You've got to be kidding. Listen I realize you thought you knew what you were talking about, but you should really have some experience before you start threads asking for nerfs. I'm honestly tired of hearing about "force projection" from people who live in hi-sec just because they want to be in on the theoretical discussion. JB's have been nerfed more times than I'd like to count so the next step is removing them altogether, that's about how useful they're becoming. It's one of the slim few advantages of having sov. i did not state once i was talking about JB i only said titan bridging.... yeah stront or atleast that is what evelopedia suggests it uses http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jump_Portal_Generator_I as i remember when i used to do fleets in null we would warp to the pos and then right click on the titan and click on the jump button. as for me i have lived most of my eve life either in null or low sec... hardly go to high sec so that is a wrong asumption on me... I just happen to be more of a solo guy then group as when i play eve i cant allways get on comms which limits me being in fleets.... also post with your main. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 696	Posted - 2013.01.14 18:46:00 - [10] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: fukier wrote: i did not state once i was talking about JB i only said titan bridging.... yeah stront or atleast that is what evelopedia suggests it uses "Jump Portal Generators use the same isotopes as your ships jump drive to jump other ships through the portal." The Jump Portal Generator requires a base amount of 500 strontium clathrates (which is reduced by the jump portal generation skill) to be activated, but that's independent of the fuel used by the actual ships using the portal, which depends on the specific isotope used by that racial jump drive variant, e.g. an Avatar uses helium isotopes, an Erebus uses oxygen isotopes, etc. ok thanks for clearing that but as it was not listed in the link. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.

fukier RISE of LEGION 696	Posted - 2013.01.14 19:03:00 - [11] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: rant. i never said you should not be able to blob... i did say that it should require more effort to dump 500 plus people in a system if you dont want to use the stargates. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 696	Posted - 2013.01.14 19:08:00 - [12] - Quote EI Digin wrote: You're just incentivizing "blobbing" because now you need to have at least 4-5 titans active, a ton of entrance cynos, and supercap hegemony to protect your titan and do a fleet. Or you can spend hours jumping through gates, losing 5-10 people each time you jump from desyncs and lag, only to get hotdropped by someone who does have these things. That doesn't sound fun. Limiting cyno mass on jumps doesn't really solve anything, you can just daisy chain cynos in with the capitals you are dropping. And again, only those who have a distinct advantage would be using cynos. A few extra immobile carriers don't matter if you have 40 SCs and 40 Titans. There is no issue with force projection, nullsec is already "small" because there are very few entities participating. You shouldn't have to jump halfway across the map for a good fight, there should already be one on your doorstep. Force projection nerfs just make it more difficult for people to get fights, probably the biggest reason why people still live in nullsec. you know back in the day jumping 40 plus jumps to find a fight was a good reason to try and kill your neighbour... plus making logi harder is a good thing... the fact you can be across the universe in a flash is kinda wrong and to me (an observer) is one of the reasons we see such large coalitions... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 696	Posted - 2013.01.14 19:16:00 - [13] - Quote Apocryphal Noise wrote: fukier wrote: Apocryphal Noise wrote: fukier wrote: masternerdguy wrote: If I recall every ship that jumps consumes fuel based on the mass of the ship. So there is a limit based on fuel availability. This is true but the pos can hold enough stront to transport a fleet. This is not a good enough limiting attribute... Having a hard Mass attribute on top of that is a better option. ....stront? You've got to be kidding. Listen I realize you thought you knew what you were talking about, but you should really have some experience before you start threads asking for nerfs. I'm honestly tired of hearing about "force projection" from people who live in hi-sec just because they want to be in on the theoretical discussion. JB's have been nerfed more times than I'd like to count so the next step is removing them altogether, that's about how useful they're becoming. It's one of the slim few advantages of having sov. i did not state once i was talking about JB i only said titan bridging.... yeah stront or atleast that is what evelopedia suggests it uses http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Jump_Portal_Generator_I as i remember when i used to do fleets in null we would warp to the pos and then right click on the titan and click on the jump button. as for me i have lived most of my eve life either in null or low sec... hardly go to high sec so that is a wrong asumption on me... I just happen to be more of a solo guy then group as when i play eve i cant allways get on comms which limits me being in fleets.... also post with your main. LOL. Oh coad memories. I don't post with my main to avoid ad-hominem attacks that detract from the discussion. Yes, jump portals use stront as well as isotopes, I thought you were talking about jb's which use liquid ozone. My point stands though, as someone who only does solo stuff, how can you realistically complain about force projection, or know the implications of limiting it? It's completely reasonable for owners of territory to have an inherent advantage over interlopers. Jump bridges haven't been used strategically pretty much since the Eye of Terror anyway. They're literally convenience items that make living in null slightly less annoying. i might not be directly linked but i do have former corp mates who are all over the eve universe and usually talk to them about these matters... plus i read all the news(properganda) websites activly... so i might not be directly involved but indrectly i am(well kinda) look at what is going on you have HBC and CFC killing of Solar and friends... what happends when that is done? we will see CFC vrs HBC! Which will be awesome to watch and read about... but what after that will everyone have some mass reset? i hope so but with the way force projection works what will stop new blocks forming... I am looking at it from a design point of view... for me having a cyno that can call in unlimted amounts of ships just sounds wrong. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 696	Posted - 2013.01.14 19:31:00 - [14] - Quote Mathrin wrote: This right here is why you should just stop. Don't try to fix what you don't understand no i disagree... this thread has enlighted me about some flaws i forgot about... in 6 plus years of playing eve its rather easy to forget something like that... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 696	Posted - 2013.01.14 19:35:00 - [15] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: even bigger rant. i think this guy is mad about something... i just cant put my finger on it... He keeps on attacking me personally due to my affiliations... but how does the saying go... even from the mouths of babes? and you do know there is more then just using a titan to get into a system.. you can you know... use stargates At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 696	Posted - 2013.01.14 19:41:00 - [16] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: fukier wrote: Mathrin wrote: This right here is why you should just stop. Don't try to fix what you don't understand no i disagree... this thread has enlighted me about some flaws i forgot about... in 6 plus years of playing eve its rather easy to forget something like that... Love how you casually drop how long you've been playing as if that makes your ignorance any more excusable. well lets see how much you remember after that long... taking a hiatus from eve every now and then can result in forgeting stuffz your char is about 2ish years old and you seem to be rather hardcore into eve... which is totally cool... and i did thank you for clearing things up for me At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 696	Posted - 2013.01.14 19:44:00 - [17] - Quote Mathrin wrote: fukier wrote: Mathrin wrote: This right here is why you should just stop. Don't try to fix what you don't understand no i disagree... this thread has enlighted me about some flaws i forgot about... in 6 plus years of playing eve its rather easy to forget something like that... While I agree with the concept of removing Titan bridges from inside POS shields that is still a major mechanic. If You are not experienced enough or have proper up to date knowledge of the field you are trying to change then you have no business doing it. There is a simple reason why. Without current and accurate info you are unable to foresee what the future effects of the change may have, thus you cannot attempt to gauge if it is for better or worse. You are basicly taking shots in the dark and wishing for a good outcome. this is a problem? thats what the forums are for... one comes up with an idea and posts it... then people respond with reasons why its good or reasons why its bad... if everyone knew everything about everything what would be the point in talking? At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 698	Posted - 2013.01.14 20:28:00 - [18] - Quote ok you guys really dont like the mass limit on cynos (well atleast the cfc peeps dont) i have yet to read non cfc people complain about the idea (but the one guy posting with his alt sounds like he could be former bob) but what about a spool up time for jump drives? (that way you cant et or cap recharge your way across the universe) or do you think you should get from one side of teh universe to the other in under 30 min... ( i myself with my alts can get from stain to syndicate really fast in my thanny its just a matter of how fast i can cap up) or titans having to be outside of a pos for the bridge to work? those two ideas must seem reasonable... the reason why i said mass limts for cyno's is to try to make some sort of restrictions for larger pvp... like you see in WH space... but for capital projection and fleet projection... if it just ends up being a hassle thats cool... its just a suggestion. ( i know with Tidi and stuff like that that CCP markets Blobs and tahts cool with me) I'm just looking for ways to spice things up...you know? but like someone said earlier in the thread they had thier cyno char pop before everyone could jump which lead to them loosing the fight... this sounds like a good thing and if there had to be multiple cynoes it would make it more interesting. (as from an outside perspective it should take mass amount of coordination to move massive fleets around... though some would argue this already takes place and its more then a resonable argument) At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 698	Posted - 2013.01.14 20:30:00 - [19] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: Nullsec isn't stagnant enough, let's make it so things move even slower than they already do! hmm so you are saying if it was harder to do force projection you would not rest your allies but would actually go 40-80 jumps just to find a fight? and you guys call high sec players risk adverse? At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 698	Posted - 2013.01.14 20:54:00 - [20] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: fukier wrote: ok you guys really dont like the mass limit on cynos (well atleast the cfc peeps dont) i have yet to read non cfc people complain about the idea (but the one guy posting with his alt sounds like he could be former bob) but what about a spool up time for jump drives? (that way you cant et or cap recharge your way across the universe) or do you think you should get from one side of teh universe to the other in under 30 min... ( i myself with my alts can get from stain to syndicate really fast in my thanny its just a matter of how fast i can cap up) or titans having to be outside of a pos for the bridge to work? those two ideas must seem reasonable... the reason why i said mass limts for cyno's is to try to make some sort of restrictions for larger pvp... like you see in WH space... but for capital projection and fleet projection... if it just ends up being a hassle thats cool... its just a suggestion. ( i know with Tidi and stuff like that that CCP markets Blobs and tahts cool with me) I'm just looking for ways to spice things up...you know? but like someone said earlier in the thread they had thier cyno char pop before everyone could jump which lead to them loosing the fight... this sounds like a good thing and if there had to be multiple cynoes it would make it more interesting. (as from an outside perspective it should take mass amount of coordination to move massive fleets around... though some would argue this already takes place and its more then a resonable argument) .... I thought there was a spool up time for certian jump drives? Titans outside a PoS sounds fine. I don't think you made a particular conection though. It's not that we don't like the idea of improving things, we don't like the idea of nerfing things that facility large scale combat (most of us at least), because that's something unique to EVE. Making it harder to move, is not better. It's tedious. Tedium doesn't improve things. Null is intended for large scale player activity, and tools need to facilitate that, including the ability to move around large numbers quickly. No one wants to spend hours on end moving across the mob to engage in war, and CCP wants peopel to engae in large scale fights in null. i agree in large scale fights i just dont see any reason why it has to be on the oppisite side of the universe... You guys choose to mkae gigantic coalitions which then requrie youto travel emse distance just to find a fight...i think its the rist adverse nature of eve players that made this. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.

fukier RISE of LEGION 698	Posted - 2013.01.14 21:00:00 - [21] - Quote Grath Telkin wrote: Ahh good, more posts about caps from people who have no clue about caps. Hey guys, guys, something reasonable like 20km of the shields guys, reasonable Hey grath you are one my fav peeps... I would love to hear what your thoughts are on this? as you are in i would think the biggest super cap alliance there is and have the most experiance with them. you are direct and i like that even though sometimes you come off as a jerk... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 698	Posted - 2013.01.14 21:06:00 - [22] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: This thread is almost as bad as that gigantic thread with the same five people insisting over and over again that local chat needed to be removed from nullsec. not removed but delayed would be nice. sure would help with all those afk cloaking threads... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 698	Posted - 2013.01.14 21:09:00 - [23] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: Yusef Yeasef Yosef wrote: Natsett Amuinn wrote: [quote=fukier] A titan and a cyno can move you from one side of EVE to the other in a single jump? No, but certainly in a single night, which is far to quick. Yes, I used to fly in null and ride the titan bridge roads a few years back. Okay, let's just arbitrarily pick an amount of time it should take, since you're obviously not going to be happy until everything fits with your preconceived notion of how things should be. i dont know about you but space is supposed to feel large and immense... and back in the day this was true... no longer is this a fact... i am not sure if its a time thing or even a fact you can get across the damn thing that bothers me all together.... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 698	Posted - 2013.01.14 21:15:00 - [24] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: So you enjoy travelling 30 jumps? I don't, nor does it make anything feel "bigger" to me. When I want to feel how big EVE is, I look at the map an the thousands of points I can visit. Nor are titans used for general purpose travel through EVE, and when I gotta go 5 jumps through null, that **** feels huge. but did you not say you can undock from vfk and find a fight? is it not your own fault for creating mega coalitions that causes the need to move 30 plus jumps to get a fight? you could if you wanted reset someone like i dunno FA or SMA and fith them or even Razor... its your choice not to... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 698	Posted - 2013.01.14 21:21:00 - [25] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: fukier wrote: Natsett Amuinn wrote: So you enjoy travelling 30 jumps? I don't, nor does it make anything feel "bigger" to me. When I want to feel how big EVE is, I look at the map an the thousands of points I can visit. Nor are titans used for general purpose travel through EVE, and when I gotta go 5 jumps through null, that **** feels huge. but did you not say you can undock from vfk and find a fight? is it not your own fault for creating mega coalitions that causes the need to move 30 plus jumps to get a fight? you could if you wanted reset someone like i dunno FA or SMA and fight them or even Razor... its your choice not to... So according to you he said he can undock and find a fight right away, and then he said he can't find a fight without going 30 jumps. Make up your mind already. i know its odd for him to say this... but its true you guys dont need to be able to get from cobalt to stain in 12 min do you? the only reason this is needed is due to large coalitions which are capable of existing due to op force projection... i am sure ifyou actually had to jump 40+ jumps to find a real fight with out Titan brdiges and stuff 0.0 would be alot more intersting... as no one is making you form large coalitions but your selves At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 700	Posted - 2013.01.15 00:01:00 - [26] - Quote Andski wrote: A spool-up requirement is reasonable. Mass limits for cynos only means that lighting nobody would jump /less/ than 10 supers or 8 titans to a lone cyno, ever. Why? Because it makes a counter-drop that much more difficult. You'd need 5-10 cynos for any serious counter-drop, which is just ridiculous. This basically allows people to use supers with less risk of interference, which is dumb dumb dumb. Spool-up timers are a decent idea worth discussion, but cyno mass limits are just silly hmm a reasonable response... there is hope for goons after all <3 At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 707	Posted - 2013.01.15 15:30:00 - [27] - Quote Zloco Crendraven wrote: Grath Telkin wrote: Crying and asking for things to get nerfed wont change that. We'll still drop right in on your cap group. And that should be preserved. But dropping on "our" caps dozens jump away in less than 10 mins is just broken. Most of Alliances/corp have the 5 minutes rule. If u cannot nuke smth in 5 mins, bale out, cos u ll get a drop 100%. BSs are almost not flown (except in 0.0), coz of the Dread threat. And if it escalates to caps, u get supers on head by a third, forth...party. If ppl knew that only neighbours, visitors can filed instantly capitals and non present parties in a decent time (let say 30-60 mins). There would be much more risking, fights and cap kills, but this time from smaller entities. Whole lowsec, WH and most of Nullsec Alliances dont have such a projection capabilities. Those few that have are fully exploiting that broken mechanics. Why the rest of EVE should bow to the minority? see this is what i am talking about... make it so its not imposible to be hot dropped but allow for a fight between two said parties without having PL or somether Supercap force be there in a flash... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 707	Posted - 2013.01.15 16:49:00 - [28] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: You guys don't find that an armada of ships is able to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in fifteen minutes amazing and health for the game? Fifteen minutes, lol. I can get from stain to syndicate in 30 min with just me and cyno alts... So I dunno if you had et a all cyno alts setup same time you could do it in theory in that amount of time... But if there a cool down time of like 10 min this could take over an hour... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 707	Posted - 2013.01.15 17:14:00 - [29] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: fukier wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: You guys don't find that an armada of ships is able to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in fifteen minutes amazing and health for the game? Fifteen minutes, lol. I can get from stain to syndicate in 30 min with just me and cyno alts... So I dunno if you had et a all cyno alts setup same time you could do it in theory in that amount of time... But if there a cool down time of like 10 min this could take over an hour... Because waiting longer to do stuff is always more fun? wtf. You guys really think that making hundreds of people sit around, even longer then they already do, just to get into the thick of things is "better". I'm glad you guys aren't the devs. Your game would be ****. but thats the thing you guys think you are entitled to get from one side of the cluster to the other with a snap of the finger and i understand that how the game mechanics work today that is true... but on the other hand the only reason you think this should continue is because you have choosen not to fight your nieghbours but ally with them... your fleet members would not have to wait if you just went to war with FA or SMA or Razor now would they? I think its something that for the health of the game in the long run is really needed... why should two groups even atempt to bring out thier small number of super caps to a fight if they know that if reported to PL or you guys that in less then a siege cycle they will be hot dropped? how is that fun for people outside your respective coalitions... and i know they could allways join up and become members but they should have the option and ability to not to have too... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 707	Posted - 2013.01.15 17:18:00 - [30] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: fukier wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: You guys don't find that an armada of ships is able to travel from one side of the galaxy to the other in fifteen minutes amazing and health for the game? Fifteen minutes, lol. I can get from stain to syndicate in 30 min with just me and cyno alts... So I dunno if you had et a all cyno alts setup same time you could do it in theory in that amount of time... But if there a cool down time of like 10 min this could take over an hour... 10 minutes between what, exactly? You have to be very careful in implementing the cooldown to make sure it doesn't hurt smaller alliances disproportionally more than large ones. If you have 10 minute cooldown between uses of titan bridges or jump drives however, that only hurts alliances and coalitions that don't have titans placed enroute already. That's absolutely not a problem for an alliance like RAZOR or the coalition as a whole - we already do this fairly often. i would say 10 min after your jump for the jump drive to reload with its fuel (but you could have a skill that reduces that time by 10% per lever make it a 12x multiplyer or somthing like that so it only ends up being 5-6 min depending on your fleets skills) for me the epic wars are supposed to be more localised (like within a region) and you can usually get from on end to another end of a region in 1-2 jumps anyways... i dont think that all of eve cluster should be consitered your back door so to speak... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.

fukier RISE of LEGION 707	Posted - 2013.01.15 17:24:00 - [31] - Quote NEONOVUS wrote: How much of this is actually the fault of caps and supers versus the ease of wealth centralization through moon goo and such? good point if they made it harder to move so fast plus removed moon goo as a passive income and replaced with ring mining where its active i could see the major coalitions split up and go to war with each other and return to the localised wars from a few years ago vrs the central mega world wars we see today... i mean why would you spend an hour traveling to defend space you dont live in and dont need if its not needed for passive income? i think this is something that the devs in dominion tried to do but failed at any follow up... but it does not mean that the devs want only super coalitions to live forever simply because of the 18 month debacle with meant that sov was not reviseted... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 707	Posted - 2013.01.15 17:28:00 - [32] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: fukier wrote: i would say 10 min after your jump for the jump drive to reload with its fuel (but you could have a skill that reduces that time by 10% per lever make it a 12x multiplyer or somthing like that so it only ends up being 5-6 min depending on your fleets skills) for me the epic wars are supposed to be more localised (like within a region) and you can usually get from on end to another end of a region in 1-2 jumps anyways... i dont think that all of eve cluster should be consitered your back door so to speak... It's not. Even for us it takes a large amount of organization and planning to move across the cluster. It took a pretty significant effort to get our caps and supercaps into Cobalt Edge, which for subcaps is actually right next door to us, but 7 jumps at the very minimum for capitals (and around 15+ for titans). i would say your war again irc is what i am looking for... they are right next door (so to speak) its actually 15 titan jumps to get from branch to cobalt edge? that seems rather unlikely... perhaps you had them deployed elsewhere and had to move them that far... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 707	Posted - 2013.01.15 17:31:00 - [33] - Quote Varius Xeral wrote: A cool down on jump drives and titan-bridged ships pretty much ends all issues of force-projection. The rest are solved by making it costly to leave your home undefended while you road-trip around burning the homes of others, but you'll never fix that by tweaking jump drives etc. Ten wasted pages discussing something with a clear and simple solution. ok then what is stopping ccp from doing this? i hope csm and ccp are reading this thread and comming up with solutions... oh dont forget about titan bridgin outside a pos shield too... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 707	Posted - 2013.01.15 17:36:00 - [34] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: fukier wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: fukier wrote: i would say 10 min after your jump for the jump drive to reload with its fuel (but you could have a skill that reduces that time by 10% per lever make it a 12x multiplyer or somthing like that so it only ends up being 5-6 min depending on your fleets skills) for me the epic wars are supposed to be more localised (like within a region) and you can usually get from on end to another end of a region in 1-2 jumps anyways... i dont think that all of eve cluster should be consitered your back door so to speak... It's not. Even for us it takes a large amount of organization and planning to move across the cluster. It took a pretty significant effort to get our caps and supercaps into Cobalt Edge, which for subcaps is actually right next door to us, but 7 jumps at the very minimum for capitals (and around 15+ for titans). i would say your war again irc is what i am looking for... they are right next door (so to speak) its actually 15 titan jumps to get from branch to cobalt edge? that seems rather unlikely... perhaps you had them deployed elsewhere and had to move them that far... First of all we live in Tenal, not that that makes much difference. Second of all there's only one connection between Tenal and Cobalt Edge, and that's SF-XJS <-> HB-5L3, and the distance between those two systems is too large for even a carrier with JDC5 to traverse. If you look on the map in-game you'll realize why. you are correct sorry i got branch and tenal mixed up in my head (at work atm and it would be bait to pull out the sov map) so basically due to jump distance you guys are forced into the very situation i would like to see made as a game mechanic... tell me did killing irc was that fun? was all that logistics too much for you guys to bother? i think the results speak for themselves... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 707	Posted - 2013.01.15 17:44:00 - [35] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: A couple of systems in null will not support several thousand players, hell a couple of regions can't even do that becuse of the way content is dispereced. People comlain about empty sytems and use it to justify thier arguement, while ignoring the fact that they're empty because of the way sove development works and a complete lack of worthwhile content in those systems. . I think you nailed it on the head with these two comments... one is content dispersement and the other is lack of content in other systems... two things i hope in the upcomming sov revamp will be looked at... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 708	Posted - 2013.01.15 17:53:00 - [36] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: fukier wrote: was all that logistics too much for you guys to bother? i think the results speak for themselves... You're asking someone from one of the top 5 largest alliances in the game. I think that speaks for itself. In any case the logistics became incredibly easy when we took HB-, because we could stage our capitals from there and we could keep our subcaps in Tenal, take jump bridges to SF-, and then take the single gate to HB- whenever there was a fleet. That took less than 5 minutes each time, and there's no nerf discussed in this thread or elsewhere that would change that. Even if you removed the jump bridges that would only make the process slightly longer. yeah but the point still stands it was worth all the trouble get to and take hb-... why can t the game have mechanics that continue to make that worth while... like lets say because you are the 5th larger allaince you guys have a decent but not large amount of super caps and were not buddy buddy with anyone else... would it not suck if you brought out your supercap force against a red started to have a aweseom fight but then an awoxer from Pl or something gets word of whats going on and setups a cyno and then 10 min into the fight you get hot droped and loose all your super caps? dont you think you deserve to have that epic fight? At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 708	Posted - 2013.01.15 17:54:00 - [37] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: fukier wrote: was all that logistics too much for you guys to bother? i think the results speak for themselves... You're asking someone from one of the top 5 largest alliances in the game. I think that speaks for itself. In fact, if I may add to this point, I think it's part of the reason IRC and alliances like it keep sov so long, in addition to their space not being worth much at all. For a smaller alliance this would have been far too much effort and left their home region open to attack to move their caps/supercaps in this manner. You might say "good, that's what's supposed to happen" except that it doesn't happen at all because when given the option of taking **** sov and leaving their home region open to attack, people will sit on their hands. i think that is more to do with the ease of being counter hot dropped then the desire of those to use thier expensive toys... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 708	Posted - 2013.01.15 17:57:00 - [38] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: fukier wrote: was all that logistics too much for you guys to bother? i think the results speak for themselves... You're asking someone from one of the top 5 largest alliances in the game. I think that speaks for itself. In any case the logistics became incredibly easy when we took HB-, because we could stage our capitals from there and we could keep our subcaps in Tenal, take jump bridges to SF-, and then take the single gate to HB- whenever there was a fleet. That took less than 5 minutes each time, and there's no nerf discussed in this thread or elsewhere that would change that. Even if you removed the jump bridges that would only make the process slightly longer. The worse part. You beat up your neighbor, and they think that that is what you're supposed to do. If you had worked with, and become allies of IRC, they would have bemoaned the blue state and cried that ** needs to be nerfed. That's pretty **** up if you ask me. Because CCP gives us the ability to do both, and some people refuse to accpt that. i dunno if razor left the cfc and teamed up with irc that would have been epic... and tried to reform the NC but make irc the new MM At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 708	Posted - 2013.01.15 17:59:00 - [39] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: fukier wrote: yeah but the point still stands it was worth all the trouble get to and take hb-... why can t the game have mechanics that continue to make that worth while... like lets say because you are the 5th larger allaince you guys have a decent but not large amount of super caps and were not buddy buddy with anyone else... would it not suck if you brought out your supercap force against a red started to have a aweseom fight but then an awoxer from Pl or something gets word of whats going on and setups a cyno and then 10 min into the fight you get hot droped and loose all your super caps? dont you think you deserve to have that epic fight? I think you're missing the point. If there were a risk of us losing all of our supercaps in a single fight, then we wouldn't take that risk. So if your objective is to make sure there's less PVP in null then I'd say you've succeeded. yeah i know you have a bat phone that means you never really have to worry about loosing them... though i think if was a even battle and a few extra super caps meant the difference and if the space was really worth it i think you would risk the assests... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 708	Posted - 2013.01.15 18:04:00 - [40] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: fukier wrote: Natsett Amuinn wrote: A couple of systems in null will not support several thousand players, hell a couple of regions can't even do that becuse of the way content is dispereced. People comlain about empty sytems and use it to justify thier arguement, while ignoring the fact that they're empty because of the way sove development works and a complete lack of worthwhile content in those systems. . I think you nailed it on the head with these two comments... one is content dispersement and the other is lack of content in other systems... two things i hope in the upcomming sov revamp will be looked at... And I agree. However, titans aren't used to access that content. They're used to move fleets who are going to engage in a fight. I don't use a titan bridge to get to NPC null, I use it to get to your system quicker so that I can shoot you. Now, why would CCP give us tools to get to shooting each other quicker, because that's what titan bridges are for. Getting people in a position to shoot each other quicker. It's easy to say, "they can move you across vast portions of the map quickly" while not ever explaining HOW and WHAT you need to do to do that. You don't just jump from location A to location B 30 jumps away with a single button press, and there's a crapton of work no one's expressing in this thread that is required to make it possible to move beyond the actual limits of a single titan (which is the root of your issue). It is NOT as simple as using a titan to travel. Just one titan birdge requires WORK, setting up multiple ones requires a LOT of work. The titans themselves have to be moved into all the correct positions. That is, you have to have on within limits of your final destination. And you shouldn't be able to jump a titan using a titan bridge. Can you? for me back in 06 when i first read about titans and bridges i allways pictured them working as a way to get a small task force into a system to harrass a blockade on a stargate so you could jump in your main force... i never liked the fact that they became a mobile stargate to move your enitre force and to negate stargates all togehter (other then the need to camp them for sbu but i think sbu are a terrible mechanic) At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.

fukier RISE of LEGION 708	Posted - 2013.01.15 18:08:00 - [41] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: fukier wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: fukier wrote: yeah but the point still stands it was worth all the trouble get to and take hb-... why can t the game have mechanics that continue to make that worth while... like lets say because you are the 5th larger allaince you guys have a decent but not large amount of super caps and were not buddy buddy with anyone else... would it not suck if you brought out your supercap force against a red started to have a aweseom fight but then an awoxer from Pl or something gets word of whats going on and setups a cyno and then 10 min into the fight you get hot droped and loose all your super caps? dont you think you deserve to have that epic fight? I think you're missing the point. If there were a risk of us losing all of our supercaps in a single fight, then we wouldn't take that risk. So if your objective is to make sure there's less PVP in null then I'd say you've succeeded. yeah i know you have a bat phone that means you never really have to worry about loosing them... That's not the point. If we didn't have that batphone, then we wouldn't risk it. You'd see less PVP. You'd see much less sov being taken as well because it's only bearable to take sov when you have supercaps to grind all those billions of EHP. fukier wrote: though i think if was a even battle and a few extra super caps meant the difference and if the space was really worth it i think you would risk the assests... Maybe, just maybe. But right now space isn't worth that at all. In any case this has nothing to do with the thread. so really what you are saying is if they fixed sov mechanics then my ideas would not be soo bad... but as it stands its the only way to take space so it must continue? i can handle that argument... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 708	Posted - 2013.01.15 18:12:00 - [42] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: fukier wrote: Natsett Amuinn wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: fukier wrote: was all that logistics too much for you guys to bother? i think the results speak for themselves... You're asking someone from one of the top 5 largest alliances in the game. I think that speaks for itself. In any case the logistics became incredibly easy when we took HB-, because we could stage our capitals from there and we could keep our subcaps in Tenal, take jump bridges to SF-, and then take the single gate to HB- whenever there was a fleet. That took less than 5 minutes each time, and there's no nerf discussed in this thread or elsewhere that would change that. Even if you removed the jump bridges that would only make the process slightly longer. The worse part. You beat up your neighbor, and they think that that is what you're supposed to do. If you had worked with, and become allies of IRC, they would have bemoaned the blue state and cried that ** needs to be nerfed. That's pretty **** up if you ask me. Because CCP gives us the ability to do both, and some people refuse to accpt that. i dunno if razor left the cfc and teamed up with irc that would have been epic... and tried to reform the NC but make irc the new MM Curiously, you didn't say "IRC join the CFC." That's kind of my point. One action, that CCP says we can take, is looked upon by you guys as "bad for the game", but another that CCP allows to take is not. And that is a poor assesment of the way things work. As long as it's player driven, it's good, and that is all that is required. Decided by the players themselves, not a mechanic, not CCP. now you bring up nietzsche... nothing in the end is good or bad its just a matter of perspective... but yeah i get your point... i would love to see after a sov revamp a global reset of everyone... then watch the fireworks and eat popcorn... but tahts just me i like more conflicts with not already determined results... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 708	Posted - 2013.01.15 18:14:00 - [43] - Quote Varius Xeral wrote: More like another "changing some feature of ships will stop human nature" thread. Force projection is a problem right now, but it is a matter of margins, not a re-engineering of nullsec gameplay. The core of nullsec gameplay will live or die based on totally different issues from force projection. elaberate... you sound smart my friend... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 709	Posted - 2013.01.15 19:06:00 - [44] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: It's taken 10 years of player activity for null sec to take shape. A year from now it could look completely different, and that's it's real beauty. indeed... but that is after 3 iterations of sov mechanics... though in a year i am really excited to see all the drama... hopefully the hbc/cfc war will be all its cut out to be... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 710	Posted - 2013.01.15 19:46:00 - [45] - Quote seems i have started quite a commotion: http://themittani.com/features/nerf-without-cause-jump-drives i always enjoy a good read and the discussion afterwards... though i may not agree with the points the fact its being talked about is a good thing. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 711	Posted - 2013.01.15 21:53:00 - [46] - Quote null is for killing and building... diplomacy just happened to be emergin gameplay... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 711	Posted - 2013.01.15 23:25:00 - [47] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: fukier wrote: null is for killing and building... diplomacy just happened to be emergin gameplay... Empire Builder I lead my alliance to conquest and control over territory in the outer regions -+I am the leader of an alliance of capsuleers in nullsec -+My alliance has fought for control of territory in the outer regions against other capsuleer alliances -+In the territory under our control we have built outposts and other facilities -+As alliance leader, I forge deals with allies and demand tribute from vassals -+Economics, politics and espionage are as important to me as military power That is from: http://www.eveonline.com/sandbox/empire-builder/ CCP says you're wrong. interesting but when an empire get too big it usually dies... (rome/England/Mongolia/japan/America) but as the way force projection works... you can defend all your borders... this does not go well with history... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 711	Posted - 2013.01.15 23:27:00 - [48] - Quote [quote=James Amril-Kesh] indeed i started this thread... then someone wrote about on the goon website... then someone posted thier responce to the goon thread about my thread on a new thread... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 711	Posted - 2013.01.15 23:28:00 - [49] - Quote Natsett Amuinn wrote: fukier wrote: Natsett Amuinn wrote: fukier wrote: null is for killing and building... diplomacy just happened to be emergin gameplay... Empire Builder I lead my alliance to conquest and control over territory in the outer regions -+I am the leader of an alliance of capsuleers in nullsec -+My alliance has fought for control of territory in the outer regions against other capsuleer alliances -+In the territory under our control we have built outposts and other facilities -+As alliance leader, I forge deals with allies and demand tribute from vassals -+Economics, politics and espionage are as important to me as military power That is from: http://www.eveonline.com/sandbox/empire-builder/ CCP says you're wrong. interesting but when an empire get too big it usually dies... (rome/England/Mongolia/japan/America) but as the way force projection works... you can defend all your borders... this does not go well with history... BoB so the answer to op force projection is Hargooth? At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.
fukier RISE of LEGION 711	Posted - 2013.01.16 00:38:00 - [50] - Quote Lord Leftfield wrote: Nothing wrong with a little force projection. I belive CCP's having a HTFU attitude to the whole ordeal. All nations grow and fall over time. unless sov mechanics change this Tumor of mega blocks will metastasize... i really really hope the summer expansion theme will be sov mechanics/0.0 industry/force projection... a true follow up to Dominion... At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.

fukier RISE of LEGION 711	Posted - 2013.01.16 12:57:00 - [51] - Quote Super spikinator wrote: Andski wrote: developer attention is focused on important issues like "miner bumping" so we might see devblogs regarding force projection by 2015 Ahhh. CCP's legendary speed of development. I think the only time they have ever moved quickly was when the first captials started being cranked out of hisec rather than anywhere else in the game. And the first Capitals still managed to get built and deployed in hisec. So, this means sov will be balanced in summer of 2016. I like it. i sure hope it does not take that long At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box.

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.