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So who wants T3's nerfed then?

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Qvar Dar'Zanar EVE University Ivy League 231	Posted - 2013.01.17 13:51:00 - [31] - Quote So tell me, why on Earth should I spend hundreds of millions more buying a T3 ship when for the same price I can buy some specialized ships that will do better than the T3 in each of the roles, and without even the SP loss risk?
Roime Shiva Furnace 1664	Posted - 2013.01.17 14:00:00 - [32] - Quote Because T3 can combine those roles in one ship, it's like a Leatherman- never as good as a carving knife or a screwdriver, but it's in your pocket when you need it and does the job. Shiva Furnace is recruiting! Small gang PVP in wormholes and lowsec.
Qvar Dar'Zanar EVE University Ivy League 231	Posted - 2013.01.17 14:14:00 - [33] - Quote So I fit my Legion for combat. Which roles exactly does it 'combine'?
Gypsio III Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 494	Posted - 2013.01.17 14:18:00 - [34] - Quote Klarion Sythis wrote: Two step explained that people in wormholes currently use T3s for heavy, reasonably high DPS platforms and that he thought this dynamic was good. Ytterbium disagreed completely and argued that T3s have a very high EHP, very good damage, and a good maneuverability. This combination, he continued, was simply too good. I'm with Ytterbium here. T3s are too good and too common in WHs. The impression given to new players is that you should be flying a T3 - but there are significant cost and SP-related deterrents to this. Note that removing the SP loss or making T3s cheaper does not solve the issue, as it simply makes T3s even more attractive. T3s are simply better than HACs at being HACs.
Roime Shiva Furnace 1666	Posted - 2013.01.17 14:18:00 - [35] - Quote Recon neuts and command ship tank Shiva Furnace is recruiting! Small gang PVP in wormholes and lowsec.
Qvar Dar'Zanar EVE University Ivy League 233	Posted - 2013.01.17 14:43:00 - [36] - Quote First, I didn't said it had a probe launcher or emergent locus fitted, nor neuts. And second, that's not 'combining roles'. At best, it's 'making a new recon ship, but sturdier'. Recon ships which, by the way, are a combination of covops and combat roles.
Narzis No Mutants Allowed H0RR0R VACUI 12	Posted - 2013.01.17 15:28:00 - [37] - Quote If T3's will get ehp and/or special ability (scram, web range etc.) nerf, these ships just will become useless, because nobody wants to loose 4-5 days of skills and 5-600m+ (generally more) ISK very often. The best way is the T2 boost as many people said before me. If T2's will get boost to make them significantly better choice then its t1 variant to serve its own purpose the problem will disappear. T1 still be useful because everybody can fly them who doesn't have the skills, ISK or just not in the mood to fly and loose expensive ships Summarized: T1's are currently good T2's needs boost to make them better to ONE purpose than T3's T3's are currently good How do I look like when I win a fight? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32571986/out-2.gif
Roime Shiva Furnace 1666	Posted - 2013.01.17 16:19:00 - [38] - Quote Narzis, my HAC Proteus: 1100 dps 142K EHP Do we need a cheap T2 cruiser with no SP loss that has higher stats? Really? Shiva Furnace is recruiting! Small gang PVP in wormholes and lowsec.
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 1058	Posted - 2013.01.17 16:45:00 - [39] - Quote Roime wrote: Narzis, my HAC Proteus: 1100 dps 142K EHP Do we need a cheap T2 cruiser with no SP loss that has higher stats? Really? No, but we also don't need a Proteus HAC that is a Deimos glass cannon with SP loss.
Roime Shiva Furnace 1672	Posted - 2013.01.17 17:30:00 - [40] - Quote Of course not, Deimos is broken, but don't you agree that there is quite a bit of room for adjustment without making Proteus into a glass cannon? Shiva Furnace is recruiting! Small gang PVP in wormholes and lowsec.

Mr Floydy Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 51	Posted - 2013.01.17 18:49:00 - [41] - Quote Think a part of the problem in balancing T3s is the skill loss. In terms of raw skill stats, how much dps/tank is really worth that skill loss? The skill point part is odd too, getting a fully skilled T3 pilot is a lot quicker than getting a fully skilled HAC pilot if I remember correctly. Roime makes a good point with the Prot vs Deimos comparison, there does need to be movement in both directions, but personally I'm worried about a potential change to T3 that might mean they have less dps/tank than a HAC, whilst being 4x the price AND having a skill loss. With the Prot you don't really have to make any compromise to have a massive tank, massive dps and a mwd you can perma run, can even chuck in a cap booster to make you fairly immune to cap warfare with barely any effort. The Diemost is extremely restrictive in comparison. Legion / Zealot are far closer in comparison. It's a bit of a shame that mass limitations mean Battleships are so impractical for the vast majority of wormhole fights. When was the last time you saw something other than a Bhaalgorn in an enemy fleet that wasn't within it's own wormhole?!
Roime Shiva Furnace 1678	Posted - 2013.01.17 19:00:00 - [42] - Quote Mr Floydy wrote: there does need to be movement in both directions, but personally I'm worried about a potential change to T3 that might mean they have less dps/tank than a HAC, whilst being 4x the price AND having a skill loss. HACs could have smaller sigs and be more mobile? -á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars -
Mr Floydy Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 51	Posted - 2013.01.17 19:08:00 - [43] - Quote Would work for me! That combined with a bit more fitting room would work wonders. Would need to see it in person to say how that would pan out in most wormhole engagements mind. Far more interesting that just increasing the ehp/damage either way.
Narzis No Mutants Allowed H0RR0R VACUI 12	Posted - 2013.01.17 21:08:00 - [44] - Quote Roime wrote: Narzis, my HAC Proteus: 1100 dps 142K EHP Do we need a cheap T2 cruiser with no SP loss that has higher stats? Really? In my opinion T2's must be better than T3's for ONE purpose. I mean, the most of them has the good bonuses (the arazu and lachesis has better point range than the proteus, just like the other recons vs T3's). All that recons need is some hp (no, they dont need 150k ehp), speed, pg, cpu etc. revamp (just like the new bc revamp). The T2 hulls have become outdated. Novadays a frigate can do 3-400 dps, a single destroyer can do 500-550. With that dps increase, many ships have become obsolete (for example the haulers and transports are too weak). The HAC's need a bigger revamp, because they have more problems (easy to notice, these ships are rare in space but you can see recons day by day). A simple 1600plate deimos with electrons can has 56k ehp, 800 dps and can go with 2k. Not that bad. The proteus has more hp, more dps, but slower and it's price is at least 3 times as much. Thats what i'm talking about. Your proteus is slow? Buy a deimos, its cheaper, faster and fits perfectly into an amor gang but at the moment it's not fast enough. That speed and price difference not worth the 2/3 hp loss. Revamp these ship. Boost their bonuses, or give them new type of bonuses (5% web velocity modifier / lvl, a bit more optimal or a bit less cap penalty... i don't know). I dont think that the good way to balance is nerfing popular ships. Is better to rethink the rarely used ships. How do I look like when I win a fight? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32571986/out-2.gif
Rroff The Xenodus Initiative. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 186	Posted - 2013.01.17 21:37:00 - [45] - Quote Problem is with HACs the deimos especially the role its supposed to be specialised for is one that either is no longer relevant in the game or an idea that sounds great on paper but doesn't actually work the way the game is played. There is no way really to fix the deimos for its supposed role without nerfing the prot into oblivion or turning the deimos into an adrestia which is just plain ******** - tho the adrestia does fit the role the deimos is supposed to pretty well (tho both need a little more EHP). The only future really for it is as a cheaper prot substitute with its EHP bumped up a fair bit (tho not to prot levels).
Kalel Nimrott EG CORP Talocan United 173	Posted - 2013.01.18 02:18:00 - [46] - Quote I`m surely missing something here. Versatility Vs. Specialization. But how can I make a T3 versatil if I can`t change its subsystems? I`m sure Nullsec dwellers have it a little more easy than us, but still...
Winthorp Future Corps Sleeper Social Club 31	Posted - 2013.01.18 02:47:00 - [47] - Quote I think it is inevitable that T3's will get looked at and changed and yeah there is some possibility some aspects could be nerfed but there is also so many good things we could get out of it also like some useful subsystems and taking away skill losses especially if they are nerfed there will be no reason to have a rather expensive balanced ship and a skill loss. Could definitely see some fleet doctrines being swapped around.
Inkarr Hashur Sine Nobilitatis R.E.P.O. 136	Posted - 2013.01.18 03:30:00 - [48] - Quote Kalel Nimrott wrote: I`m surely missing something here. Versatility Vs. Specialization. But how can I make a T3 versatil if I can`t change its subsystems? I`m sure Nullsec dwellers have it a little more easy than us, but still... The POS issue is getting a little ridiculous, I agree. If they won't revamp the POS system, then CCP really owes it to use to at least expand the capabilities of the current system.
PavlikX You are in da lock 38	Posted - 2013.01.18 03:59:00 - [49] - Quote T2 needs boost. T3 don't need a nerf at all (Only Drake must be nerfed )
Utsen Dari Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy 70	Posted - 2013.01.18 08:22:00 - [50] - Quote Hoping T3 refitting at poses happens before T3 re-balancing happens. Flying out every T3 one owns individually and rebuilding them one by one in hisec because the old fit is now 0.01 teraflops over in CPU or something sounds like such busywork

AP John Lone Star Exploration Lone Star Partners 9	Posted - 2013.01.18 08:39:00 - [51] - Quote Paikis wrote: EDIT: Gas prices are down, mag loto prices are down, Radars have been crap for quite some time. W-Space is drying up :( We are just picky that we already have billions in our wallet.. :) but that is still true, Instrumental Gas sites are down over 25%, and radars are just worth for the Talocan, Mags... what mags.. ho runs mags anymore?
Gypsio III Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 495	Posted - 2013.01.18 09:00:00 - [52] - Quote Paikis wrote: EDIT: Gas prices are down, mag loto prices are down, Radars have been crap for quite some time. W-Space is drying up :( I don't think we should be defining the value of space by its PVE content. OTOH, the T3/logi/Archon/Moros gangs are too repetitive, more PVP diversity is needed.
Roime Shiva Furnace 1690	Posted - 2013.01.18 10:36:00 - [53] - Quote AP John wrote: I run a Proteus, so I'm pretty sure this thing costs more then a freaking Dred or a Carrier fully fitted :D, so this kind of makes up for the high stats, and let's admit that it can't do what a cap ship can... but it costs the same.. I don't see why it is an issue that we can afford to fly them.. Sorry, my stats we're off my head, these are checked from pyfa with my skills and implants, (all Vs are even higher): 1224 dps w/Void+heat & Hammers (1247) at point blank (3.8km), w/Null and Hammers deals about 700 dps @ 15km (834) 143K EHP (149) Paid approx 1.18bil, pyfa shows 1.4bil Fairly standard issue AHAC Proteus if you ask me, can fit either MWD or AB. Non-pimped stats are dangerous when discussing T3s, they are not as impressive, but also not as common on Tranquility. Quote: they are not better then a BS hull Comparable BS has much more range, utility, and sensor strength bit higher dps and less tank when you count in the sig. Unfortunately this comparable BS has 5 times more mass, if you need to get ******** amounts of gank with as much EHP as possible on the field, nothing really compares to a Proteus. And this is why simple "buff Deimos dps & EHP" without nerfing Proteus is not really a realistic option IMHO- if we stick to the principle that T2 > T3 in specialized role, which I assume in this case is dealing damage while receiving reps. Question remains whether simply making HACs even more mobile, but with weaker tank/gank would be enough to make them viable options. Maybe, at least different and possibly more fun. -á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars -
AP John Lone Star Exploration Lone Star Partners 9	Posted - 2013.01.18 12:30:00 - [54] - Quote Roime wrote: Comparable BS has much more range, utility, and sensor strength bit higher dps and less tank when you count in the sig. Unfortunately this comparable BS has 5 times more mass, if you need to get ****** amounts of gank with as much EHP as possible on the field, nothing really compares to a Proteus. Totally agreeing with this ^. I was comparing the T3 hull with BS hull from overall game perspective, were mass is not an issue. Roime wrote:** Paid approx 1.18bil, pyfa shows 1.4bil. My point, can't you buy a cap ship for 1 bil these days?
Roime Shiva Furnace 1695	Posted - 2013.01.18 12:45:00 - [55] - Quote No idea, I can't roam around in a Moros even if it costs 200mil. -á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars -
Narzis No Mutants Allowed H0RR0R VACUI 17	Posted - 2013.01.18 13:08:00 - [56] - Quote AP John wrote: Roime wrote: Comparable BS has much more range, utility, and sensor strength bit higher dps and less tank when you count in the sig. Unfortunately this comparable BS has 5 times more mass, if you need to get ****** amounts of gank with as much EHP as possible on the field, nothing really compares to a Proteus. Totally agreeing with this ^. I was comparing the T3 hull with BS hull from overall game perspective, were mass is not an issue. Roime wrote:** Paid approx 1.18bil, pyfa shows 1.4bil. My point, can't you buy a cap ship for 1 bil these days? Cap ship prices are much higher these days. Especially if you want to buy a meta 2 fit. How do I look like when I win a fight? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32571986/out-2.gif
Chitsa Jason DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale. 253	Posted - 2013.01.18 14:16:00 - [57] - Quote T3s are in the right place right now. The only issue with them is that they have many useless subs.
Nemo deBlanc Phoibe Enterprises Project Wildfire 32	Posted - 2013.01.18 14:30:00 - [58] - Quote Imo, T3's are fine as they are, but CCP obviously disagrees. All I can do is hope that when they nerf them, it's not so hard that they make the ships -and therefore whspace- utterly worthless.
AP John Lone Star Exploration Lone Star Partners 9	Posted - 2013.01.18 14:59:00 - [59] - Quote Nemo deBlanc wrote: Imo, T3's are fine as they are, but CCP obviously disagrees. All I can do is hope that when they nerf them, it's not so hard that they make the ships -and therefore whspace- utterly worthless. It actually increases wh value, because it will take some time for many to reorganize in new ships/fleet, and run stuff properly. This will result in fewer ops with a longer time to complete, we all know how long it takes to do it in BC's. So by economic definition the offer of wh stuff will drop on the market, as the wh resources will take longer to get on the markets, which results in less and less wh stuff on the market and so prices for wh resources will increase, slowly at first as many have great stashes of stuff, but eventually prices will go up.
Qvar Dar'Zanar EVE University Ivy League 239	Posted - 2013.01.18 17:08:00 - [60] - Quote AP John wrote: Nemo deBlanc wrote: Imo, T3's are fine as they are, but CCP obviously disagrees. All I can do is hope that when they nerf them, it's not so hard that they make the ships -and therefore whspace- utterly worthless. It actually increases wh value, because it will take some time for many to reorganize in new ships/fleet, and run stuff properly. This will result in fewer ops with a longer time to complete, we all know how long it takes to do it in BC's. So by economic definition the offer of wh stuff will drop on the market, as the wh resources will take longer to get on the markets, which results in less and less wh stuff on the market and so prices for wh resources will increase, slowly at first as many have great stashes of stuff, but eventually prices will go up. Ah I see, we will leave T3s because they are worthless, so we won't be making that much nanoribbons, and that will drive the prices up (even more) for that same T3s that nobody will want to fly with the current prices. Makes sense.



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