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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
577
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Posted - 2013.01.16 18:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
Quote:
Dr.EyjoG repeated his statement from FanFest 2012 that the sinks and faucets in the game are not correct (which is relevant to the previous discussion) and pulled up a chart demonstrating this. By far the largest faucet in the game is NPC Bounty Prizes, at over 30T ISK/month. The biggest sink is Skill Books, at a mere 6T ISK/month.
Dr E mentioned that he will be later doing a blog this month I hope it includes this graph ( for say at least themonth of December).
Such info is not without precedent last year CCP released this info & TwoStep compiled it very very nicely:
http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html
This sub forums would probablybe the best place to put forth ideas on new sinks & discuss current faucets.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
579
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Posted - 2013.01.17 02:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
Here's my stab at proposing a new ISK sink: Paying out of bounties to NPC's ( & CCP DEVs) that kill capsuleer ships.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
579
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 06:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:I didn't see Alliance fee's in the list. Should be a substantial amount
(snip)
It is there: http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html click on SOV fees & you'll see the breakdown last FEB from alliance costs & SOV fees... 802B of it was form alliance fees
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
580
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Posted - 2013.01.17 19:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
OkaskiKali wrote:
If the eve economy needs "rebalancing", and the reason why it is out of sink is becuase of NPC payouts (im interested to know if that includes incursions)
I am willing to bet the Escalation Incursion nerfs cut Incursion ISK by 70-80% per month.
I'm curious if what I'm hearing from Missions&Complexes forum is true & they've seen an appreciable ISK profit cut since the release of Retribution due to the new AI & the TD bugs.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
580
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Posted - 2013.01.18 04:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
Bounties and mission payouts generate isk from nothing, while activities such as running wormhole sites do not generate isk. You may thing, wait, running wormhole sites makes more isk than missions or ratting. How can it not be a faucet? Well, sleepers in wormhole sites do not pay bounties they drop items, those items, such as nano ribbons, are then sold to other players for isk. No new isk is generated, it is just existing isk changing hands.
Sorry but you are very very incorrect about no ISK being generated from thefruits of sleeper sites ( to the tune of ~9-10 trillion ISK a month ) sleepers drop 'blue loot' ( especially in the higher class holes) which can be sold to NPC's
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
581
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Posted - 2013.01.18 05:34:00 -
[6] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Velocity of money seems to have an awfully minimal if not non-existent effect on inflation of non-PLEX goods in this game though.
I agree with your implication that the velocity of money affects the price of PLEX and the extreme increase thanks to the 'summer of FW lp' went to prove that. Ithink this discussion though is better discussed in the thread I put forth about the PLEXintervention
Back to sinks & faucets:
something that really disturbed me was the ISK sink reductions of FW tiers (75%)which once where taken out had an immediate effect on PLEX prices. Further more I still argue that in the long term (2 years) those ISK reductions per item will have a net negitive in the LP sink eventhough in the short term alot of ISK was taken out of the economy.
Your earlier post discussing replacing mission reward ISK with LP has merit but due to the lingering effects of reduced ISK LP from the FW bonanza LP value is espeically suffering. A way to counter that would be addition of new valuable LP items.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
581
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 06:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:
Back to sinks & faucets:
something that really disturbed me was the ISK sink reductions of FW tiers (75%)which once where taken out had an immediate effect on PLEX prices. Further more I still argue that in the long term (2 years) those ISK reductions per item will have a net negitive in the LP sink eventhough in the short term alot of ISK was taken out of the economy.
Your earlier post discussing replacing mission reward ISK with LP has merit but due to the lingering effects of reduced ISK LP from the FW bonanza LP value is espeically suffering. A way to counter that would be addition of new valuable LP items. Furthermore the FW LP bonanza had a very definite deflationary effect on items such as Fleet Issue stabbers and probably all faction ammos except Amar faction crystals.
I'm mildly curious how much the FW bonanza contributed to deflation too.
FW Tiers did nothing to alter the "sinkiness" of an LP. Tier 1: 1000 LP + 1000 ISK = 1 Item. => 1000 ISK sunk for 1000 LP. Tier 5: 250LP + 1000 ISK = 1 Item => 1000LP + 1000 ISK = 4 Items. => 1000 ISK sunk or 1000 LP. Each LP takes the same amount of ISK down the drain with it when it's used, and I didn't see any evidence of high tiers resulting in massive hoards of unspent LP being socked away because "I only needed the one item." The market value of the resulting item is entirely irrelevant to the amount of ISK that LP stores sink. The price of a product decreasing because the cost to produce that product has decreased is not "deflation," it's the normal workings of the market. Just like cruiser prices didn't rise (aren't rising) after Retribution because of "inflation," they rose (are rising) because the cost to produce them has increased.
Malarky 4 items where introduced where there was 1 before for the same price as 1. Unless demand is perfectly elastic we're looking at a significant ISK sink reduction over time.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
581
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 06:48:00 -
[8] - Quote
mynnna wrote:If they'd left it in long enough to completely shatter the markets, perhaps.(snip) .
Agreed I bet the surprise early retraction of the FW ISK reductions was taken out at the same time of the PLEX intervention or slightly afterwards. Also I wouldn'tdoubt that part of the surprise early was toprevent last mad dash to cash in incredible amount of LP at tier 5.
Guess we'll find out when Dr E does his Janruary DEV blog he mentioned in the CSM minutes.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
581
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 09:23:00 -
[9] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
If demand were inelastic,
Show me how consumer demand has increased? or especially why it will in the future?
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
582
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 17:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:RubyPorto wrote:
If demand were inelastic,
Show me how consumer demand for implants has increased? or especially why it will in the future? Doesn't matter. The ISK is sunk at the point of item creation. What happens to the item later is irrelevant.
So demand doesn't matter? 
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
582
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 23:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Illest Insurrectionist wrote:
Do you have any suggestions for switching over wormhole items to counter that source?
What do you mean by that?
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
582
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 05:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
mynnna wrote:
Eliminating bluebooks would require further iteration on wormholes to add value to replace it...at least some of it. Wormholes aren't my forte and I'm not really sure how much of their income is from the bluebooks vs other items, but an outright and complete removal is probably inadvisable. Partial replacement might be a welcome change from the wormhole crowd, but it's not something I've thought too much about as far as concrete ideas. ;)
Eliminating bluebooks would be away too harsh thing to do and they are a good payout mechanic IMHO
it takes ALOT of work (logistics) to move them out. If CCP where to do the 10% across the board bounty reduction
that CCP soundwave suggested then it'd be fair to hit it too in kind. CCP though after the hamfisted Incursion hammering seems to be backing away from simply taking the ISK away with hardening of site's content thru adding DPS or changing the AI to reduce income. So far WH sleepersites have been untouched for a couple years. I bet though if POS's where revamped to allow T3's to change modules WH residents would gladly in exchange suffer thru sleepersite reworks that reduced thier ISK faucet there.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
582
|
Posted - 2013.01.20 02:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
CSM minutes wrote:
Dr.EyjoG repeated his statement from FanFest 2012 that the sinks and faucets in the game are not correct (which is relevant to the previous discussion) and pulled up a chart demonstrating this. By far the largest faucet in the game is NPC Bounty Prizes, at over 30T ISK/month. The biggest sink is Skill Books, at a mere 6T ISK/month.
compare that to http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html
Skill as a sink books have dropped from ~7trillion to 6 as the highest sink still lp sink has dropped tounder 6 trillion even with the FW lp summer bonanza to probably under 6 trillion from last year February!
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
588
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 19:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Upon reading the DEV blog on bounties I realized that they had not mentioned a 1 time ISK sink: The retirement of the old bounties. I wonder if that was in the trillions.
A new sink that we have no idea of how much it takes out of the economy was the research agent 10k ISK datacore charges and the FW lp store datacores which now take out 50k per core but over the summer where often only taking out 25k & 12.5k each
I hope to soon see a DEV blog on sinks & faucets and not only get a partial view of a undetailed graph like we often saw at fanfest last year.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
593
|
Posted - 2013.01.28 06:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
Sairi Katelin wrote:Bugsy VanHalen wrote: A sink is existing isk in the game being removed. having to buy a new ship is not an isk sink, as that isk does not leave the game, it goes to who ever you bought the ship off of. When a ship gets destroyed is it an isk sink? No, Why? Even if the total isk value of the items destroyed is greater than the value of the dropped loot plus the insurance payout. It would seem like an isk sink, but really no isk was actually removed from the game. This is the Broken Window Fallacy. Yes, the miners and shipbuilders get isk to replace the ship. However, if the Hulk had not been destroyed, that isk would have been available for the miner to re-invest and spend elsewhere. The cost of the barge is canceling out the mining time for the materials to build the barge, instead of being leveraged more efficiently. Quote: Since minerals are constantly regenerated through re-spawning asteroid belts no actual isk was lost Are you really going to add M.I.M.A.F. to your economic stumblings? The mining costs time - time which could have been spent elsewhere.
Sorry but in no way is ISK destroyed when a ship goes poof and with insurance its actually an ISK faucet.
( I guess there are though 2 special circumstances of preventing ISK to be fauceted: when a ship is destroyed & its destroyed loot contained sleeper 'blue loot' or DED Tier X overseer items you are in a way preventing a future fauceting of ISK. )
Ship destruction though could be considered a mineral/material sink.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
611
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 19:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
Well unfortunely there's never been stats published that show the differences between lo/null/hi sec bounties... but there has been stats about WH 'bounties' in the form of blue loot faucet being ~10 trillion a month ( not a bad racket 1/3rd the payout of all bounties being done by 5-7% of Eve's population )
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
611
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 19:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
mynnna wrote:WH bounties are a separate stat from the actual bounties, so they wouldn't be included in the ~30T/mo. They were almost 7T back last January though, so it's definitely true that wormhole dwellers pump out quite the faucet...especially since the total faucet from "things sold to NPCs" was about 10.5T for the whole month.
The for next month we got the tweet 10.43 trillion Blue loot
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
612
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 04:21:00 -
[18] - Quote
mynnna wrote:
"You know, bounties contribute a lot of the faucet and nullsec likely is a big part of it, maybe we could replace some or all of the isk they produce with some other way to reward players for killing them"
I have suggested in another forum a few times that the defeat of an Incursion in NULL SEC should cause the relaxation of SOV fees in that constellation for a period of time because it makes sense because players are doing what should be Concord's (absentee landlord's ) job. Problem with my idea in this thread is that it is a sink reduction w/o an corresponding faucet reduction.
Finding new palatable ( non tax ) sinks is difficult & I hope some genius here in the forums could come up with an unexplored, novel idea.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
613
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 10:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
One sink I doubt that was discussed in the CSM meetings is the unsubscribing of accounts. I'd hope it was the smallest sink in Eve but doub it is. On a side note I wonder if Dr E has the tools to compare the average versus the median ISK unsubbed per account.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
613
|
Posted - 2013.02.16 05:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
mynnna wrote:[(the FW stuff was actually a very major sink)..
I'd argue FW stuff didn't increase the LP sink since from the CSM notes skill books sink appears to have decreased fromCCP Diagoras last tweet about them & LP store did not overtake them as #1 according to Dr E in the last CSM summit notes.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
613
|
Posted - 2013.02.16 16:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
mynnna wrote:
You'd be insane to think that it didn't increase some, it was a massive farmer goldrush. Pilot population was 2-3x what it is now in FW.
It was 1/4 the ISK sink at tier 5. There is a reason Dr E ain't showing the numbers...
Dr E show us the money!
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
613
|
Posted - 2013.02.16 20:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:mynnna wrote:
You'd be insane to think that it didn't increase some, it was a massive farmer goldrush. Pilot population was 2-3x what it is now in FW.
It was 1/4 the ISK sink at tier 5. There is a reason Dr E ain't showing the numbers... Dr E show us the money! You're on this claim again. Where is your evidence for massive stockpiles of unspent LP caused by gaining high tier (literally the only case where high tier results in less ISK being sunk)?
My evidence is from the CSM notes the skill books are stated to be down to near 6 trillion sink a month and are the #1 ISK sink and compare that to CCP Diagoras last publishing of the LP store ISK sink which was 6.3 trillion a month.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
614
|
Posted - 2013.02.16 23:31:00 -
[23] - Quote
I do wish that the label of that chart was labeled September, October, or November 2012 but here we have hard numbers (evidence) that the LP Store sink has fallen from nearly a year ago. The most likely culprit was the FW insanity over the summer.
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
637
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 03:40:00 -
[24] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:
Except that ISK is not a Fiat currency. Its closest RL equivalent is specie because the NPC sources are extractive in nature (mining gold = ratting for ISK. Both are activity in return for the creation of money [in a strictly specie-backed monetary system, ofc].).
iNTERESTING... an arguement that ISK is specie and not PLEX or assets... I'll have to think about this one
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
637
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 03:54:00 -
[25] - Quote
mynnna wrote:Well, there is the saying that civil engineers design the targets and mechanical engineers design the bombs. 
I doubt they were that needed for Little Boy as much as the physicists ( the materials though very much required MECH-E's or CHEM-E's for spinning Uranium Hexafluoride? )
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
658
|
Posted - 2013.03.03 12:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
mynnna wrote:DarthNefarius wrote:mynnna wrote:Well, there is the saying that civil engineers design the targets and mechanical engineers design the bombs. I doubt they were that needed for Little Boy as much as the physicists ( the materials though very much required MECH-E's or CHEM-E's for spinning Uranium Hexafluoride? ) :cripes: What I meant when I said "there is a saying" was really "there is a joke."
You didn't like my joke? 
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