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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
215
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Posted - 2013.01.16 19:53:00 -
[1] - Quote
Bump manufacturing fees in highsec. If my estimates are correct, changing it from the current negligible system to a mere quarter percent of estimated value of the production job is worth upwards of 3-6T isk/month in sinks while having negligible effects on the sale price of items between players.
Different approach: Eliminate isk payouts and time bonuses for missions, replace them with an LP payout instead. This approaches the problem by both removing a faucet (roughly ~6T/mo by Diagoras' old numbers) and adding a sink (the isk required to spend that LP, which is typically 1000 isk per LP on the most convenient cashout items.) This also allows them to dial mission income around a bit, depending on the rate that they replace the isk payouts with LP at. For example, if they replace it at a 1000 isk per LP rate, then a mission runner would have to buy items with that LP that are worth a final sale price of 1000 isk/LP to maintain his previous income...but could increase his income by taking a more thoughtful approach to redeeming his LP than "buy as many implants as possible and dump to buy orders." This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
217
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Posted - 2013.01.16 21:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Velocity of money and the increasing thereof is the whole point behind my theory of PLEX pricing that I've floated around - ie, that PLEX respond to anything that lets you earn a lot more money, lets you earn it a lot more passively, or both. Relative sinks to faucets remain important because lots of isk in the game means lots of isk to impart that velocity on, if that makes sense, but an abundance of isk isn't necessarily the primary factor.
If they're "getting it", that's good to see imo. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
224
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Posted - 2013.01.17 07:05:00 -
[3] - Quote
Candy Oshea wrote:this is what happens when a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn't it I'm a mechanical engineer too. What's your problem?
RubyPorto wrote:mynnna wrote:Bump manufacturing fees in highsec. If my estimates are correct, changing it from the current negligible system to a mere quarter percent of estimated value of the production job is worth upwards of 3-6T isk/month in sinks while having negligible effects on the sale price of items between players. But then I might have to actually start tracking my manufacturing fees and including them in my spreadsheets.
Pfft. 375k on a 150m isk ship. Cry me a river.
e: Someone made the very valid point to me ingame that the sort of blanket adjustment to missions as I proposed would adversely affect newbies as that income is important to getting them on their feet. It's a good point! Fairly easily fixed though... I think by the time someone is capable of buying and properly fitting a ship capable of doing L4 missions, they'll probably have the isk that a lower up-front isk payment in exchange for a higher LP payout on the back end won't be much of a burden. So, leave L1-L3 missions untouched, only apply the change to L4. There's also still bounties as well as loot and salvage to provide some up-front isk to pay the LP costs with, so it'd probably work out okay.
Probably. Could be wrong. ;) This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
266
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Posted - 2013.01.17 20:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:OkaskiKali wrote:
If the eve economy needs "rebalancing", and the reason why it is out of sink is becuase of NPC payouts (im interested to know if that includes incursions)
I am willing to bet the Escalation Incursion nerfs cut Incursion ISK by 70-80% per month. I'm curious if what I'm hearing from Missions&Complexes forum is true & they've seen an appreciable ISK profit cut since the release of Retribution due to the new AI & the TD bugs.
I wouldn't really try to extrapolate whinging on the forums out into a complete picture of effects on mission income and faucets. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
280
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Posted - 2013.01.18 00:58:00 -
[5] - Quote
Velocity of money seems to have an awfully minimal if not non-existent effect on inflation of non-PLEX goods in this game though. Looking at a chart of the various indices makes that abundantly clear - they're here clear back to 2003. You have a vague upward trend in all of them from say 2008 onward, but it's pretty explainable: The primary producer index includes things like moon goo which has had a tumultuous but generally upward rise (first focused on dyspro/prom and then on tech) which is reflected in the secondary PPI (which includes things like the components built from those moon minerals). Large rises or falls are often significant events - the effect of removal of drone regions on minerals in 2013, the rise and subsequent collapse of the PPI as dyspro/prom rose in value and then were nerfed (and subsequent re-rise and fall as tech rose and was nerfed), etc.
If there's any real inflationary effects there, they're lost in the noise. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
281
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Posted - 2013.01.18 01:39:00 -
[6] - Quote
Yes, but it didn't really have any effect on non-PLEX commodities, or if it did that effect was buried under everything else (rise and fall of minerals, tech, etc). That's my point - PLEX is the only item in Eve that responds in any perceptible way to that sort of inflationary pressure. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
281
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Posted - 2013.01.18 06:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
The FW tiers did not reduce the amount of isk sunk through the LP stores. Players spent the same amount of LP (and thus the same amount of isk), they just got more for it. The effects the FW bonanza had on PLEX prices would be best attributed to the whole "increasing velocity of money" thing.
If you think LP value is still suffering I take it you haven't checked the implant markets lately. Stat implants, at least, are at record highs - pushing 10m/ea for +3s, 22m/ea (or more) for +4s, putting them around 870-960 isk/LP. +5s are still lagging a fair bit and are more down in the 600-700s range, but that's to be expected, and are all well up over 100m anyway; I'd expect them to go to 120 or so. Ammo is, according to a spreadsheet I've put together for other purposes, similarly valuable... PP and EMP L are lagging a bit in value, but the other sizes as well as all sizes of Fusion are 1000 isk/LP or better. As to the ships, FW pilots already enjoyed a sizable cost advantage for those and while you're correct that they haven't recovered much (tempest fleet issues aside, of course), it's to be expected that they will not recover a whole lot - the militia pilot pays just 45k LP (plus a normal stabber and nexus chip), while the mission runner pays 240k LP. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
281
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 06:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
If they'd left it in long enough to completely shatter the markets, perhaps. They didn't, and the excess stock was absorbed by speculative traders and released out onto the market slowly as prices rose. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
282
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Posted - 2013.01.18 06:51:00 -
[9] - Quote
That sort of timing would make sense, especially as I have a sneaking suspicion that the fact that they moved the changes up instead of including them in Retribution was on EyjoG's prompting. It would have been a sort of "Go fix the mess you've made while I contain the damage" move. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
297
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Posted - 2013.01.18 14:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:RubyPorto wrote: If demand were inelastic,
Show me how consumer demand for implants has increased? or especially why it will in the future?
Given that there are not separate bars in the market charts that tell us the difference between consumer demand and speculator/trader demand, that will be rather hard.
In any case, I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to get at here. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
301
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Posted - 2013.01.18 19:13:00 -
[11] - Quote
I covered that already. Given a lengthy enough period of time, demand would have been crushed. Speculators would have run out of money and fled the markets (or dumped back into them, making matters worse) and you'd have seen them crash. But two factors - the fact that it didn't run that long, and the fact that CCP confirmed well in advance of even the originally planned date that it would be fixed (thus guaranteeing speculator profit) meant that it did not.
I know you mentioned "pure consumer demand" before but that is not all that matters, especially in this case. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
303
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Posted - 2013.01.18 23:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Illest Insurrectionist wrote:mynnna wrote:Bump manufacturing fees in highsec. If my estimates are correct, changing it from the current negligible system to a mere quarter percent of estimated value of the production job is worth upwards of 3-6T isk/month in sinks while having negligible effects on the sale price of items between players.
Different approach: Eliminate isk payouts and time bonuses for missions, replace them with an LP payout instead. This approaches the problem by both removing a faucet (roughly ~6T/mo by Diagoras' old numbers) and adding a sink (the isk required to spend that LP, which is typically 1000 isk per LP on the most convenient cashout items.) This also allows them to dial mission income around a bit, depending on the rate that they replace the isk payouts with LP at. For example, if they replace it at a 1000 isk per LP rate, then a mission runner would have to buy items with that LP that are worth a final sale price of 1000 isk/LP to maintain his previous income...but could increase his income by taking a more thoughtful approach to redeeming his LP than "buy as many implants as possible and dump to buy orders." So unless I'm off base here you're the next CSM chair ya? What do you consider an appropriate growth in the isk supply? If your two suggestions were implemented we would still have ~18T or more coming in per month. Do you have any suggestions for switching over wormhole items to counter that source?
Member almost certainly. Chair would be nice.
"Appropriate growth" isn't something I can really give a firm answer to because there's a lot of information I'm missing. You do want some level of growth in the isk supply though, as the player supply is always growing. A fixed or even shrinking amount of isk for an ever-increasing (or so we hope) number of players is a bad thing.
I'd note that the two previous suggestions I made would have a greater effect than that. Rewards and time bonuses removes a 5t/mo faucet, replacing them with LP at a 1000:1 ratio means that another 5T/mo (give or take, the ratio for LP redemption isn't always 1000:1) is removed to redeem it. Then there's the estimated 3-6T on top of that.
Eliminating bluebooks would require further iteration on wormholes to add value to replace it...at least some of it. Wormholes aren't my forte and I'm not really sure how much of their income is from the bluebooks vs other items, but an outright and complete removal is probably inadvisable. Partial replacement might be a welcome change from the wormhole crowd, but it's not something I've thought too much about as far as concrete ideas. ;) This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
312
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Posted - 2013.01.20 03:49:00 -
[13] - Quote
While you're probably technically right about the LP sink (due to Sreegs' continued actions against bots), you can't or at least shouldn't make any assumptions whatsoever regarding isk sinks in general just because skill books have dropped in size as a sink. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
334
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 17:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Andres Talas wrote:I'd do it by boiling frogs.
Start with mission reward -> LP. Similarly, have Tier officer drops give Concord LP rather than cash. Officers pay a lot more in bounty than regular rats but are so rare as to be a drop in the bucket, so taking away their bounty isn't really going to do anything.
Andres Talas wrote:Nerf insurance by edging up the prices of insurance, and declining to cover self-destruction. I dont think you could simply refuse to insure ships in Null, but a man can dream, right ? I think insurance ought to go away entirely, but I'm not really sure.
Andres Talas wrote:Bring back drone poo rather than bounties. No. The addition of bounties to the drone regions probably added a trillion or so a month to the total faucet that is bounties, but that's a relatively small increase compared to the total size of that faucet. Moreover, drone poo pretty much prevents any attempt at making mining worth doing in null.
Andres Talas wrote:Nerf Hub isk income by dropping the bounty payments, but compensate by having the miniboss always appear and dropping an appropriate Tier officer drop. The more general theme here of replacing some of the bounty in nullsec with some kind of loot is a good one. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to make it officer loot, however.
Andres Talas wrote:I'd increase manufacturing slots by making the cost dynamic - the more manufacturing/ME/whatever slots are in use in a station, the higher the price goes. This already happens, though the effect is miniscule. Jita 4-4 is probably the most heavily used station in empire and it costs a mere 807 isk per hour (up from 333 base). The vast majority of other stations are the base 333 isk/hr. The problem is not that costs don't scale (although it certainly could and should scale more like the way offices do), but that they're ridiculously low to begin with, thus my proposal back on page 1: Change it from isk/hour to a flat percentage of estimated value of input. That allows the total size of the sink to grow (considerably) without doing something silly like making really cheap, fast to build modules cost more in build fees than the module is actually worth.
This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
335
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 04:38:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ahhh okay, I see what you're saying. Confusion over the use of "officer". This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
341
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Posted - 2013.01.23 03:14:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:
Increase the charter requirement for POSes in hisec Charters come from FW, they're not NPC sold.
Mara Rinn wrote: I'm hoping mynna/corestwo/aryth will be at Fanfest so I can get me some learnin' :)
Won't be, sorry. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
342
|
Posted - 2013.01.23 05:13:00 -
[17] - Quote
Yeah, same charters I was thinking of? I tiredposted and forgot that they're in most all LP stores, not just FW. Still, no isk cost to buy them, so no sink, as Ruby pointed out.
To candy's question: if they cost more LP, they'd just rise in price until they reached a new isk/LP where they were worth selling. It wouldn't really have any major effect on other items like implants. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
419
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 21:04:00 -
[18] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:The nulsec alliances have the biggest faucets and regularly inject the isk into the economy via jita. They get a large amount of isk from anomolies which they generate using infrastructure. Those anomolies give the runner 20M isk per tick in bounties; 3 per hour. That's on the conservative side. The amount of isk pumped into the game borders on the eye-watering. I can make a reasonable argument that the faucet from bounties in highsec missions is as big if not bigger than the faucet from anomalies in nullsec. Wanna see it? Here.
Old CCP Diagoras Tweets wrote:
Those were April 16th, so it'd have been a Sunday that he was referring to. Sunday is often one of the busiest days on the server, so they're probably the high point for the week. Anyway, the total for just those five highsec regions is almost 2.1 million kills. Now, the total from those five nullsec regions is about 311k. I'll grant that there are 36 additional uncounted nullsec regions, but we know that they must have less than 58k kills - otherwise, they'd have bumped Deklein from the top 5.
So lets be generous. Lets assume that each and every single one of those 36 regions saw 57.99k NPC kills that previous day. What's that give us total? About 2.4 million kills.
In other words, if we make a ridiculously generous assumption for how many kills the uncounted nullsec regions total up to, we arrive at a number only barely larger than the top five highsec regions... and there are eighteen more highsec regions not counted.
So, sorry kid, the "blame" for the faucet from bounties is probably split evenly, at best, between highsec and nullsec. But a definite slant towards highsec wouldn't surprise me, either. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
419
|
Posted - 2013.02.13 21:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
If he wants to be derisive and condescending, I reserve the right to be derisive and condescending in return. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
421
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 05:06:00 -
[20] - Quote
Direct comparison. About 102b in rewards, for 284,286 missions. That's an average of about 360k per mission, which includes a lot of lower paying missions as well - not just actually lower level, but things like courier missions. I checked on one of my alts that ran a some missions the other day and most of the payouts were in the 400-700k range for L4 combat. That suggests to me that the majority of kill missions run are L4 kill missions - if that weren't the case, the average would be much lower.
This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
426
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Posted - 2013.02.14 16:48:00 -
[21] - Quote
"Every single rat killed in nullsec is a battleship worth a million or more, therefore we can count those numbers as billions."
So lets see, if we use my overly generous assessment of 2.4 million rats killed that day in nullsec, worth a million apiece, we get a total of 2.4 trillion isk.
In one day.
When around thirty trillion or so in a whole month is more the norm. When more like half of what you're trying to claim would be a normal day.
Even if we bring into this the fact that every single anomaly in nullsec has a 1:1 ratio of battleships to smaller ships in it (as do belt rat spawns, when they have battleships at all) and say that the average rat value killed in nullsec is a mere 500k, the same argument you're using still results in the claim that nullsec is producing all the bounties, which is demonstrably not true.
I'll refrain from bothering to present any more evidence, since you're happily inclined to handwave it away as "sophistry", nevermind the lack of evidence of your own. Come back when you can make an argument that makes sense given the numbers available. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
428
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 19:50:00 -
[22] - Quote
WH bounties are a separate stat from the actual bounties, so they wouldn't be included in the ~30T/mo. They were almost 7T back last January though, so it's definitely true that wormhole dwellers pump out quite the faucet...especially since the total faucet from "things sold to NPCs" was about 10.5T for the whole month. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
428
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 19:58:00 -
[23] - Quote
Ah, missed that one while searching. Still, it's a separate number over and above regular bounties. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2013.02.14 21:49:00 -
[24] - Quote
Still not seeing any evidence that nullsec is the majority of the bounty faucet and that highsec is trivial, nor that highsec bounties are somehow not inflationary even though nullsec bounties are.
But if we want to bring silly story justifications into things. CONCORD pays a bounty on pirates found in nullsec because pirates that reside in nullsec tend to raid low- and highsec. They'd go after them themselves but lack the manpower, thus, they pay the capsuleer residents of those areas to do the job for them.
This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
434
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 03:25:00 -
[25] - Quote
Illest Insurrectionist wrote:We need new isk coming into the game every day. We need new players to be able to earn isk so they can use loyalty point stores.
The point about faucets and sinks is more about where can they be changed and what amount of isk entering the system is healthy.
Or hey, I could be wrong about everything.
No, you're basically right. A positive isk flow is a good thing as the game is growing; if isk flow is net negative, the isk supply is shrinking, which just puts current and future new players at a disadvantage.
The question, really, is how positive the isk flow should be and frankly, that's not really one we players have the tools to answer. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
435
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 15:30:00 -
[26] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:As the economy of this game functions in a similar (same?) way as real life, it's probably best to look at the world in order to determine how to combat this inflation problem.
It doesn't.
In real life manufactured goods can't be made by absolutely anyone with only a minimal barrier to entry that results in cutthroat competition and drives the cost of those goods down very close to the cost of their raw materials, which in turn can be obtained by absolutely anyone with only a minimal barrier to entry that results in cutthroat competition and ruthlessly drives those goods in strict adherance to supply and demand.
That's why T1 goods in 2010 cost half what they did in 2006 despite what was undeniably a massive inflation of isk in the economy due to nullsec ratting, highsec missions, incursions, and wormholes, and why the only thing that prompted the price of those T1 goods to change was the removal of an enormous supply faucet of minerals.
If normal inflationary pressures apply to manufactured goods in this game at all they're utterly lost in the fluctuations created by supply and demand. The only thing normal inflationary pressures do affect in a noticeable way is the price of gametime in the form of plex, and even that's a stretch... as evinced by the faction warfare hilarity last year (for one such example), their price will soar based on the presence of something that puts more isk into the hands of more people faster and all the better if it takes a low amount of work relative to other activities with poorer payouts. That holds true regardless of whether it's a faucet or a sink (the FW stuff was actually a very major sink). The fixing of the FW hilarity has resulted in a steady drop in plex prices, accelerated by frequent CCP sales.
There are other reasons why it may be prudent to limit the size of the net faucet in the game, and there are all manner of ways of doing that, but the evidence available to players, at least, suggests that inflation in the classic sense of "Oh no my all my stuff costs more" is not one of them. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
435
|
Posted - 2013.02.16 16:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:mynnna wrote:[(the FW stuff was actually a very major sink).. I'd argue FW stuff didn't increase the LP sink since from the CSM notes skill books sink appears to have decreased fromCCP Diagoras last tweet about them & LP store sink did not overtake them as #1 according to Dr E in the last CSM summit notes. There was I recall an implied promise of an DEV blog about the PLEX intervention for mid Janruary which never materialized where I hoped beyond hope this would also be discussed but its looking like we're going to be in the dark until Fanfest were I suspect a murkry economic summary will be unvailed concerningfaucets & sinks. You'd be insane to think that it didn't increase some, it was a massive farmer goldrush. Pilot population was 2-3x what it is now in FW. How much of an increase? Dunno. I don't remember seeing specific numbers in the notes (though I'd have to check again). It's beside my point though, which is that something does not have to be a faucet (a la incursions) to affect PLEX prices. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
435
|
Posted - 2013.02.16 20:20:00 -
[28] - Quote
Oh boy, here we go again. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
435
|
Posted - 2013.02.16 21:09:00 -
[29] - Quote
That's not evidence that FW "reduced the sink". 1000 isk per LP was sunk whether the LP was redeemed at tier 1 or tier 3 or tier 5. That is evidence that, at best, the sink from all the extra FW LP being redeemed wasn't really as big as we thought it was. But then again, Sreegs had announced only a month or so prior that he was banning the **** out of botters, which would have included mission runners, which would have resulted in a dramatic decrease in isk spent to redeem LP, which could have made room for the isk spent in LP stores to dramatically increase without actually pushing it up above the sink from skillbooks. In other words, perhaps the isk spent in LP stores by FW farmers "replaced" the isk spent by the banned bots, resulting in the total size of the LP store sink staying roughly the same.
The only way you can really claim that FW "reduced the sink" is that for X amount of LP, 4X items were bought, but only X was paid, meaning that only 25% of the isk that "should have been" spent to create those items was actually spent. I suppose that that's technically true, but that's not really "reducing" the sink so much as it is a matter of less isk being sunk than somehow could have been. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
437
|
Posted - 2013.02.18 06:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote: Paradoxically increasing the supply of minerals due to mining becoming far more worthwhile than before. The faucet merely changed shape.
Yes, this is why trit is worth 6 isk/unit and other low ends are similarly more expensive. Because, you know, the supply is larger. That's how supply and demand works, right guys? Supply more of it and the price goes up?
Mikhael Taron wrote: Stay on topic, which is managing the amount of isk in the economy. I (still) realise you are blindly defending your cashflow, but manufactured goods don't inflate; the cash supply does. All this noise you're creating is a poorly executed attempt to obscure this.
You've got to have a reason for the amount of isk in the economy to actually matter; normally that's the price of goods and services. In other words, it is on topic.
Mikhael Taron wrote: ... as long as none of them interfere with your cashflow?
Still putting words into my mouth, I see. Can you explain why you think players in nullsec should be forced only to mine and build for their income again? You sort of ignored that one. Here, let me quote it for you again.
mynnna wrote:For the record? I'm not trying to "halt any discussion on blah blah blah whatever drivel you spat out." You'd have gotten a much better response if you'd come in and said "You know, bounties contribute a lot of the faucet and nullsec likely is a big part of it, maybe we could replace some or all of the isk they produce with some other way to reward players for killing them" instead of dropping in with the implication that nullsec was the sole source of the faucet and man those whiny brats should all be forced to just mine or build for their money whether they like to or not. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
469
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Posted - 2013.02.24 15:08:00 -
[31] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Candy Oshea wrote:this is what happens when a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn't it Had a good chuckle at this. I thought the economics majors would have been less uppity after 2008. At least when a mechanical engineer stuffs up all that collapses is a bridge...
That's a civil engineer. When a mechanical engineer stuffs up it's a 787 dreamliner or a ford pinto or something like that. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
469
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Posted - 2013.02.24 15:13:00 -
[32] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:mynnna wrote:Zappity wrote:Candy Oshea wrote:this is what happens when a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn't it Had a good chuckle at this. I thought the economics majors would have been less uppity after 2008. At least when a mechanical engineer stuffs up all that collapses is a bridge... That's a civil engineer. When a mechanical engineer stuffs up it's a 787 dreamliner or a ford pinto or something like that. The Pinto was a wonderfully designed.... ....bomb.
Well, there is the saying that civil engineers design the targets and mechanical engineers design the bombs. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
481
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Posted - 2013.02.26 01:01:00 -
[33] - Quote
GoatChops wrote:This thread was an excellent read and really helped me understand a few things I had never really considered.
Not being the sharpest tool in the shed I took the following away from it:
1. An ISK faucet is defined as ISK changing hand from NPCs to players 2. An ISK sink is defined as ISK changing hands from a players to NPCs 3. Contrary to what I believed ship losses in PvP are NOT a direct ISK sink because the actual "ISK"exist in the ship sellers wallet somewhere Yes.
GoatChops wrote:4. The speed that ISK changes hands between players or its "Velocity" (combined with more Faucets then sinks) is what causes ISK inflation (?) Not quite. If "Isk Inflation" is just the amount of isk in the game growing, then any faucet contributes. Inflation of the price of commodities as a result of that generally doesn't happen (supply/demand factors on the materials used to build them matter way more), and PLEX prices are affected by velocity more than the actual excess of isk in the economy (or that's what the evidence suggests to me, anyway). That said, two things about velocity: First, it's velocity of *any* isk, not just between players (see: incursions), and second, isk inflation does play an indirect role simply by meaning there's more isk to move around if the factor at the time is velocity between players. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
489
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 01:36:00 -
[34] - Quote
Mikhael Taron wrote:Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Mikhael Taron wrote: NPC services. Increasing fees for using research and manufacturing queues. They are always active and represent an isk sink. This affects empire more than nulsec.
Naturally an option is to leave it as it is and hope for the best. That tends to be also a real world option.
Imo NPC research and industry slots should cost as much as POS slots. That would be a first step to dis-incentivize pure hi sec production by null sec players, would be a first step at incentivizing POSes usage (and thus help ices markets and hi sec wardecs) and be a sensible ISK sink. If it promotes POS usage then the net effect would be a reduction in the sink as people move away from the NPC facilities. I'm unaware of pos's using any NPC-sourced materials, so therefore they don't contribute to the isk sink. As a benefit of dissuading the nulsec alliances from hogging hisec resources, I agree, but that's for another topic. An increase to the sink would be to charge for the entire time in the queue, not just for the active time. While that MAY drive people away from the NPC facilities, equally it may not. I believe the queues would shrink a bit but they wouldn't disappear, and each queue-hour would likely be sinking multiple amounts of isk.
Quote:733,377,961 ISK spent installing manufacturing jobs - 326m of that going to player corporations
Production fees for a single day. At ~400m sunk, it's 12b a month. It could have been a slow day, but then again the day in question was a Sunday...in any case, it's probably safe to assume that the typical sink from build fees is low double digit billions, which makes them literally a rounding error in the ledger of sinks and faucets. That's a good argument for increasing them. A battleship costs .0015%-.002% of its sale price in build fees, something like a cruiser costs about .3%, a T1 large gun (425mm railgun I for example) is about .04%.
It'd be a bigger sink if the build fees were expressed as a percentage of input value. Even something like quarter percent (to say nothing of a full percent) would turn manufacturing fees into a meaningful sink without really affecting the actual price of goods on the market in a significant way. This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
mynnna
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
489
|
Posted - 2013.02.27 04:22:00 -
[35] - Quote
DarthNefarius wrote:mynnna wrote:Well, there is the saying that civil engineers design the targets and mechanical engineers design the bombs. I doubt they were that needed for Little Boy as much as the physicists ( the materials though very much required MECH-E's or CHEM-E's for spinning Uranium Hexafluoride? )
:cripes:
What I meant when I said "there is a saying" was really "there is a joke." This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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