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Tash'k Omar
Apple Construction Inc
Mistakes Were Made.
17
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Posted - 2013.01.18 21:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Hey all, just had a few questions on the benefits of each of these modules.
I am familiar with the equation for tracking in Eve, but was curious as to which of these modules would benefit a solo turret ship the most. (While I'm curious as the the mechanics in all aspects of Eve, I am in particular interested in trying to make T2 425s hit sleeper frigates with maximum efficiency)
Just glancing at the equation without running any numbers leads me to believe that a Meta 4 TP (+30% sig bloom, more with skills) would give exactly the same bonus as a Tech 2 Tracking Computer (+30% tracking speed). However the Target painter would help everyone in the fleet, assuming I bring a friend/alt along.
I would imagine the web would be better than either of those two, however the limited range could make it a problem in some instances. (All sleeper frigates orbit at <10km so I shouldn't have much problem there, however both the TC and TP would be a benefit against cruisers as well)
So, am I correct in my assumption that TP == TC, or did I read the equation incorrectly?
Thanks a bunch. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
549
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Posted - 2013.01.18 21:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
Looks to me like you've answered your own question already. |
Flakey Foont
206
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Posted - 2013.01.18 21:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
Kind of depends on what you are flying. Web is always good if you fight at that range. |
Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
291
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Posted - 2013.01.18 21:16:00 -
[4] - Quote
TP only helps if your turrets' sig res is higher than the signature radius of the target. |
Carol Krabit
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2013.01.18 21:17:00 -
[5] - Quote
If your equation is right (I cba math) it would seem a tracking computer is superior for the solo ship, as it has no limit on range and can be scripted on the fly to increase range if needed. If you are using big drones on the other hand the TP might give a slight boost to their accuracy aswell, so yeah. I shouldn't have posted. |
Carol Krabit
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2013.01.18 21:17:00 -
[6] - Quote
oops |
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
118
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Posted - 2013.01.20 03:51:00 -
[7] - Quote
A sensor booster scripted for scan resolution will let you lock frigs quicker, thus allowing you to shoot them while they are farther away and still flying straight at you so no need to worry about tracking. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
500
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Posted - 2013.01.20 11:19:00 -
[8] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:TP only helps if your turrets' sig res is higher than the signature radius of the target.
no |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
325
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Posted - 2013.01.20 16:05:00 -
[9] - Quote
I'm a big fan of Target Painters. They work for all weapons types, have great range, assist the whole fleet. |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
Damu'Khonde
603
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Posted - 2013.01.20 16:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
The advantage of a TC is the ability to on-the-fly swap to range.
As far as either of those vs a web: A web is superior if you're within range (obviously) and the angular velocity is primarily coming from your opponent's movement. If your own movement is causing the angular velocity (IE you're orbiting him), then a web will not help you whereas a TP will. |
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
455
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Posted - 2013.01.20 17:29:00 -
[11] - Quote
Webs >>>>>>>>>>>>> all the rest assuming they are close |
Tash'k Omar
Apple Construction Inc
Mistakes Were Made.
17
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Posted - 2013.01.20 18:50:00 -
[12] - Quote
Thanks all for the replys. I'll probably end up going with a TP, just in case a friend/alt tags along, plus with just a few days training I can get it to 36% boost instead of 30%. |
Enilonee
17
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Posted - 2013.01.21 15:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
If the TP gets jammed or popped your fleet will run without bonus. Also it has only 45km optimal.
A local tracking comp bonus will always be there. |
Syrias Bizniz
Carnivore Company
Stealth Syndicate
114
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Posted - 2013.01.21 19:32:00 -
[14] - Quote
A Target Painter will help when your target's signature is lower than your weapons sensorresolution.
A Tracking Computer will help when your target's signature is lower than your weapons sensorresolution and/or in combination with their angular velocity.
A web will help when your target is moving to fast for your guns to track.
If you are using closerange weapon systems, like autocannons, a targeting computer is probably the best way to go, since you already have a 'good' tracking, and it lets you also extend the range at which you can apply your damage. If you're using long range weapon systems, a webber will help you track targets that got under your guns by far more than a tracking computer would. However, the range is limited.
Also, with long range, a Target Painter would help you boost up the target's signature while it is approaching you, making it easier to hit - unless it's already big enough. |
Cage Man
149
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Posted - 2013.01.21 21:15:00 -
[15] - Quote
Target Painter cycles slowly, so you will be on to the next target before it has finished, for this reason I prefer a TC.
Oh PLEASE!!! CCP Fozzie Can I haz a Navy moa....... |
Noisrevbus
381
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Posted - 2013.01.21 21:27:00 -
[16] - Quote
I guess your question have sort of already been answered, but i'll put it up clearly as well:
The power of the module corrolates to the difficulty of application.
The web is the strongest (yet hardest to apply).
The painter is the second strongest (from multiple ships up until diminishing return).
The tracking mods are the weakest (but most simplistic and with the least conditions to meet to be effective).
Few shots are fired with the weakest in power without the stronger effects having been applied ontop though.
ie., in most situations when you have a Tracking comp, someone else is already applying point-web-paint. |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
361
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Posted - 2013.01.21 22:40:00 -
[17] - Quote
If target sig >> weapon sig/explosion radius, then the TP doesn't help much at all
if target traversal << weapon tracking, and its within optimal, then the TC doesn't help much at all, same goes for webs
For various combinations, its a lot more complicated.
I'd go with the TC for solo work |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
500
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Posted - 2013.01.22 01:26:00 -
[18] - Quote
The number of people who don't understand how target painting fits into the tracking formula never ceases to amaze me. |
Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
303
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Posted - 2013.01.22 15:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:The number of people who don't understand how target painting fits into the tracking formula never ceases to amaze me.
I'll rephrase.
Given the diminishing mathematical returns in the tracking formula and the difficulty of realistically getting the turretSig:TargetSig ratio significantly below .5 (assuming target MWD off), the cutoff that players tend to worry about is TargetSig=turretSig.
I.E. we could have a debate over all the math and post up 50 different graphs, but given the prevalence of webs, the ease with which one can minimize transversal, the stacking penalties involved with TPs, and the fact that you're generally shooting at something of similar size anyway, most people don't worry about trying to bloom the target's sig radius as much as possible. It helps, but is generally the last thing you try except in extreme cases (sniper gangs, blap dreads, etc.)
To the OP, yes, the statement "target sig only matters if it's less than the resolution of the guns" is technically incorrect (see here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage), but a very good cutoff to follow. |
Cage Man
150
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Posted - 2013.01.22 18:22:00 -
[20] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:The number of people who don't understand how target painting fits into the tracking formula never ceases to amaze me.
The number of people who offer no help on the forums but feel the need to comment never ceases to amaze me 
Oh PLEASE!!! CCP Fozzie Can I haz a Navy moa....... |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
Heretic Nation
2799
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Posted - 2013.01.22 18:25:00 -
[21] - Quote
Eternal Error wrote:Gypsio III wrote:The number of people who don't understand how target painting fits into the tracking formula never ceases to amaze me. I'll rephrase. Given the diminishing mathematical returns in the tracking formula and the difficulty of realistically getting the turretSig:TargetSig ratio significantly below .5 (assuming target MWD off), the cutoff that players tend to worry about is TargetSig=turretSig. I.E. we could have a debate over all the math and post up 50 different graphs, but given the prevalence of webs, the ease with which one can minimize transversal, the stacking penalties involved with TPs, and the fact that you're generally shooting at something of similar size anyway, most people don't worry about trying to bloom the target's sig radius as much as possible. It helps, but is generally the last thing you try except in extreme cases (sniper gangs, blap dreads, etc.) To the OP, yes, the statement "target sig only matters if it's less than the resolution of the guns" is technically incorrect (see here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage), but a very good cutoff to follow.
So what is the cut off point for tracking, or is more tracking always better?
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
304
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Posted - 2013.01.22 19:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:
So what is the cut off point for tracking, or is more tracking always better?
-Liang
I'm not sure if this was sarcasm or not. Obviously there is no simple answer, but more tracking would always be better, and there are, once again, diminishing returns given the equation. It's the same relationship in the same place in the equation, it's just way easier (IMO) to analyze gun sig res vs target sig res and to put a number on it by plugging it in as a simple variable ratio... |
Debir Achen
The Red Circle Inc.
39
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Posted - 2013.01.24 14:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
Consider the tracking calculation. It's all built around what I call the "tracking factor":
T = (transversal * sig res) / (range * sig * tracking)
It can also be expressed as (angular velocity * sig res) / (sig * tracking), but the above form is more useful for this discussion.
If you're inside optimal, the chance to hit is 0.5 ^ (T^2). This is 100% when T = 0, 50% when T = 1, 6.25% when T = 2, and so on, dropping off very quickly for T > 1 but also quickly approaching 100% for T < 1.
For this discussion, let's assume that range and your gun's sig res are fixed, and represent transversal as speed, so we get the following:
Bigger is worse for shooter: transversal
Bigger is better for shooter: target sig, tracking.
Doubling any term on the top line has exactly the same effect on accuracy as halving a term on the bottom line, and vice versa.
So, how do our modules stack up?
A decent unbonused web will slow the target by 60%. This is the same as multiplying by 0.4, or dividing by 2.5. A web has severe range limitations, but slowing the target not only improves our accuracy but also improves our ability to dictate range. Webs are stacking penalised with other webs. Webs improve accuracy for all vessels attacking the target with guns and also improve missile damage.
An unbonused PWNAGE with sig focusing V increases sig by 30% * 1.25 = 37.5%, or multiplies by 1.375. This is stacking penalised with other painters and with MWD and shield rig sig increases. Target painters have decent range, plus a falloff. Webs improve accuracy for all vessels attacking the target with guns and also improve missile damage.
A scripted Tracking Computer II improves tracking by 30%, or multiplies by 1.3. This is stacking penalised with other modules that improve tracking. Tracking modules apply at any range, but only affect the ship they are mounted on.
Note: all three module types under consideration stack fully with each other, as they affect different parts of the calculation.
If you can get the target in range, webs are far and away the superior option. They are almost twice as effective as anything else (before we start squaring things!), suffer fewer stacking issues, and also grant speed superiority.
Target painters have range, and not much else. The bonus granted is a lot smaller, and they suffer more from stacking penalties. They are a little more useful on missile boats, as missile damage is capped at sig / explosion radius, regardless of any other factors (the other two factors are a combination of sig, explosion radius, speed and explosion velocity, and 100% - apply the smallest of the three factors to the nominal damage to get actual damage).
Tracking bonuses only affect you (tracking links notwithstanding), but at least you are in complete control of them and they always apply.
Side comment: an unbonused scripted tracking disruptor at level V applies a penalty of just over 50% (20.1% * 0.25 * 2). Applying a single target painter is not enough to fully counter a tracking disruptor. A single web will provide a bigger benefit that a single TD penalty.
(Caveat: some numbers might have chanced since I last looked)
Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature? |
ChromeStriker
The Riot Formation
Unclaimed.
465
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Posted - 2013.01.24 14:31:00 -
[24] - Quote
Insert double web, double TP, Rapier and fit TC's your self. Then this argument become mute :)
-
Nulla Curas |
Tash'k Omar
Apple Construction Inc
Mistakes Were Made.
17
|
Posted - 2013.01.24 15:32:00 -
[25] - Quote
Debir Achen wrote:Consider the tracking calculation. It's all built around what I call the "tracking factor":
T = (transversal * sig res) / (range * sig * tracking)
It can also be expressed as (angular velocity * sig res) / (sig * tracking), but the above form is more useful for this discussion.
If you're inside optimal, the chance to hit is 0.5 ^ (T^2). This is 100% when T = 0, 50% when T = 1, 6.25% when T = 2, and so on, dropping off very quickly for T > 1 but also quickly approaching 100% for T < 1.
---
Thank you very much. Excellent post. |
Onomerous
Shockwave Innovations
Shockwave Sovereign Industries
0
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Posted - 2013.01.24 17:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
I think there is some confusion between the 'game' and mathematics. Ultimately the formula describes the game but it is math at the core. Therefore you have to apply the rules of math to the situation while removing the 'game' aspect.
If the formula is correct (I have no reason to believe it is not) then some of the ideas thrown out are wrong. Therefore:
1) If target sig >> weapon sig/explosion radius, then the TP doesn't help much at all. Mathematically this is not true but it is reasonable from a 'game' perspective. Any increase in signature of the target will have a positive affect on T (targeting).
From a purely mathematical perspective, this is all that matters:
Bigger is worse for shooter: transversal
Bigger is better for shooter: target sig, tracking.
Since the 'game' is mathematical at the core (all 1 and 0 on a computer), this is the bottom line. Webs are still the best but TP with their larger % increases are 'mathematically' better than TC/TE (not withstanding all the other considerations). If you only think in terms of an actual ship moving in space of course you will argue the point (but EVE really is just 1 and 0 on a computer!!).
** waits for flames** :) |
Debir Achen
The Red Circle Inc.
45
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Posted - 2013.01.28 03:51:00 -
[27] - Quote
Consider a griffin pilot orbiting a battleship at 10km with his Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive running. For argument's sake, say his speed is 2520 m/s (loses a bit due to orbit). With the microwarpdrive running, his sig is 252 m.
Putting this into the above formula gives T = 2520 * sig res / (252 * 10k * tracking) = sig res / (1000 * tracking).
We're dealing with a battleship, so sig res of its guns is 400. Thus, T = 400 / (1000 * tracking), or 0.25 / tracking.
A Rokh with a full rack of Neutron Blaster Cannons II and an all-V pilot has base tracking of 0.0649. 0.25 / 0.0649 is a little under 4, which gives the Rokh a 0.003% chance to hit.
Add a single TC II with a tracking speed script, and tracking rises to 0.0844. T = 2.96, hit = 0.23%.
Stick a 60% web on the target and its speed drops to 2520 * 0.4 = 1008. At tracking 0.0649, this gives T = 1.54, hit 19.29%. At tracking 0.0844, T = 1.18, hit 37.79%.
Applying a single tracking module and a web has taken our pesky frigate from unhittable to taking quite a bit of damage. One more module and it could quickly become very dead.
Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature? |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
229
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Posted - 2013.01.28 11:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
One thing to note : if you plan to orbit your target, then the web will not help you. Infact, the only moment a web will help you to track is when you plan to minimize the transversale. If you want to increase your transversale, or even not reducing it, then you are better with a TP or TC, as only those will help you to outtrack your target. |
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