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RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2431
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Posted - 2013.01.20 05:59:00 -
[1] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:Now this; instead of spamming CCP for hi sec nerf why not ask for a new feature like NPC mercs to help guard their POS'es and assets. this will help for players in Null not having to be on guard protecting moons all the time giving them more freedom to roam.
So you're telling us that, instead of asking CCP to fix the problem where Null has no viable way to increase its manufacturing capacity (Spendig ~100k ISK/hr (entirely ignoring the capital investment and risk of loss) to fuel a manufacturing line that costs 600ISK/hr in HS is not a viable option), you're suggesting that we ask CCP to Make Nullsec into High Sec?
How about no. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2431
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Posted - 2013.01.20 06:25:00 -
[2] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:Well then this is why null cant get their cht together cause nobody wants to make it work but want all the benefits.
What benefits? The "benefit" of being able to sit trillions of ISK worth of POSes and POS modules and Blueprints (not every outpost has a station, and outposts do not have HS's 20+ offices per station) in harms way in order to reap the "benefit" of paying 35k ISK/hr more than HS pays for the same capacity that they get cost free and risk free and effort free? This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2432
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Posted - 2013.01.20 07:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:Cost, I incurred the same costs in hi, no risk....hardly all it takes is for another to come along and war dec to get a cheapo corp off the moon and guess what no more pos, if said cheapo corp wants to fight then they risk their pos.
Make a self sustainable POS just for null where no fuel is required, I'm onboard with that absolutely yes.
No, in HS you manufacture out of Stations. Where one system in the Forge has more slots available than any Sov Nullsec constellation.
How much did it cost players to put those slots there, where nobody can cancel your jobs, lock the outputs down from you, or otherwise bother you? Nothing. And it costs 35k isk/hr/slot less than POS manufacturing in Null. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2432
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Posted - 2013.01.20 07:33:00 -
[4] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:Sure, manufacturing is done in NPC stations, however have you tried doing copying or research or invention this is near impossible to get a slot without a long line up to months.
You know what makes manufacturing more difficult in hi, competition, competition is the nerf to hi sec industrial toons everybody and their mothers are manufacturing so profits are fleeting and most stuff I sell at a loss because of competition.
The availability of Copy and Research slots in outposts is even worse than the availability of manufacturing slots.
If you sell anything at a loss when you're manufacturing for a living, you're really terrible at this game.
By the way, Itamo has 550 station manufacturing slots. Find a region in sov Null with more than that. (A fully upgraded factory outpost has 19 slots).
A research outpost has 19 ME/PC/Copy slots to HS's 50 per station. Find a region in Sov null with more than the 480 ME research slots in the Forge. Hell, find a region in sov null that has half of that.
Then keep in mind that each of those Outposts cost ~50 Billion ISK, and you can only have 1 in a system. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2432
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Posted - 2013.01.20 08:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
Snow Axe wrote:Piugattuk wrote:You know what makes manufacturing more difficult in hi As someone who sold my ratting character months ago and went into production in highsec to make my money, the answer to that question is "literally nothing".
I'm occasionally bothered by carpal tunnel syndrome. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2432
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Posted - 2013.01.20 08:57:00 -
[6] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote: The population of hi is greater then that of null, which brings this full circle, how come null isn't utilizing fully it's moons to manufacture cause even a small POS can support I believe 4 to 5 manufacturing structures each with X number of slots but someone said null indy's won't do it because they want a guarantee of a profit.
Because the (nearly) unlimited, safe, (effectively) FREE manufacturing slots in HS are a strictly better option than POSes anywhere for all but certain niches and corner cases.
And no, a small POS cannot support 4-5 manufacturing structures able to manufacture any item in the game (the ability of a HS station), and cannot efficiently build T2 ships at all.
Quote:Don't want to keep BPO's / BPC's in a POS or an outpost, then have a ship with small secure cargo container with bunch of nick nacks inside too and before logging out go back climb into the ship of choice and log out in a ready safe spot in YOUR system if your not aggroed by some timer then you are safe just like cloaky nuets who harass 0.0 and log out in your system only later to reappear. (And by the way I'm not suggesting to do this with billions in BPO's / BPC's.)
Actually, you are. Most stations in Null are not Gallente Outposts (who, in a shocking twist manage to be better than a HS station in one single way; 36 Office slots), and most systems do not have Outposts. How do you propose to build at a POS in a system where you don't have a station to put an Office in without putting your billions of ISK in BPOs (aka anything more than 2 Battlecruiser BPOs) into the POS?
If your suggestion is to use copies, how do you propose making those copies at a POS in a system where you don't have a station to put an Office in?
Teach me of your magic ability to take BPOs out of the location they're installed in without cancelling the job (and loosing all progress and materials). This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2432
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Posted - 2013.01.20 10:01:00 -
[7] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:And your making my point, why nerf hi sec if it's beneficial due to prohibitive cost doing it in null. it's like taking a race car and pulling out the V8 and replacing it with a 4 cylinder engine and thinking your gonna win the race
I sit and wonder how the hell Goonswarm pulls off all the cht they doodoo, burn jita blah blah, my only guess is they must have a hell of crue manning the ship cause they do as they please. They must be busy training, building, mining because they are one of the most successful corporations in game how the F do they doodoo it, freaking kudos to the most hated group in the game.
I myself may not approve of their tactics but they get results.
Because when HS manufacturing is FREE and effectively UNLIMITED, there's no way to make Nullsec competitive by only buffing it.
So HS manufacturing slots need to cost some non-trivial amount for there to be any room for nullsec industry to be competitive. That's on top of radically increasing the manufacturing capacity in Nullsec.
The manufacturing that GSF members do is primarily done in HS. Because Industry in HS is Strictly Better than in Nullsec. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2433
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Posted - 2013.01.20 10:08:00 -
[8] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote: Ok I'm delusional but it still stands, you can anchor a POS at each of those moons can't you? Your unwillingness to do so cause of risk means what, you have no will I still invite you to live here in hi sec.
I know there are issues regarding POS'es in 0.0, it's not insurmountable but there are ways to mitigate losses you just need to figure out creative ways to do stuff instead of worrying about hi sec slots and mechanics.
We have long since figured out the creative solution to the problem. We've been employing it to great success for a long, long time.
Here it is:
Make an Alt > Sit said alt in HS > Manufacture in the strictly better industrial environment of HS > Ship the Product to Jita for sale or JF the Product to Nullsec for use.
We are saying that we would prefer to be able to efficiently manufacture goods in the space we actually live in, thank you very much. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2433
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Posted - 2013.01.20 11:02:00 -
[9] - Quote
Andski wrote:Malcanis wrote:How on earth is this supposed to be competitive with manufacturing in hisec? I'm told Nonni has 550 manufacturing slots. That means it would take 62 POS to replicate that manufacturing capability, which would cost around 30 billion ISK a month to run, and something like 90 billion to set up. Not to mention the value of the player time - let's put it at a conservative 90 hours to set the whole thing up, and then an additional overhead of 3 hours per week per POS, coming to 270 player hours in the first month. Those additional hours could be spent running level 4s at 50M/hr (I picked that as a baseline income activity), adding another 13.5B to the head start. meanwhile using up all of the slots in Nonni for an entire month costs a grand total of 126,500,000 ISK install cost is 1,000 ISK and cost per hour is 333 ISK whether you're in Jita or in the most remote part of lowsec or NPC 0.0
Well, almost. Some installations charge as much as 750 ISK/hr. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2434
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Posted - 2013.01.20 11:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
SB Rico wrote:OK Let's look at this in a slightly different way, maybe instead of messing with High Sec and driving all ship prices through the roof even more (a goddamn recon/HIC now costs as much as a CS 3 years ago).
Rather than jack up manufacturing costs in High Sec maybe there should instead be an improvement to the manufacturing facilities available at POSes and Outposts. Making it cost effective to manufacture ships in null without the market spiraling ever further upwards.
This would be in the interests of both parties since in theory (can't do anything about alliances who set silly costs in their outposts) if high sec costs increase everyone in game ends up worse off. Your goods may now be made in null sec but you will still have paid the cost you don't want to pay now. Instead of making your life better you now have to rat, plex, mine, wh, etc. more to pay for the cost.
The usage cost to manufacture a Hurricane is 1760 ISK. For a Rokh it's 2157 ISK. That is, for all intents and purposes, FREE.
You cannot effectively compete with FREE without a massive advantage somewhere else. When FREE comes with safety, convenience, and safe logistics, there's nowhere left to shoehorn that advantage in. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2434
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Posted - 2013.01.20 11:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
SB Rico wrote:And that is why I advocated looking at ways to reduce the cost of manufacturing in null sec.
So, break reprocessing by reducing mineral costs?
Because that's the only way to reduce the cost of manufacturing. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2434
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Posted - 2013.01.20 11:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
SB Rico wrote:RubyPorto wrote:SB Rico wrote:And that is why I advocated looking at ways to reduce the cost of manufacturing in null sec. So, break reprocessing by reducing mineral costs? Because that's the only way to reduce the cost of manufacturing. OK specifics? Make outpost refining more efficient Increase the manufacturing slots on POSes and Outposts IMPROVE the null sec facilities to acheive balance rather than nerf the HIgh Sec ones, I am on your side to a point things should be done to help manufacturing in null sec but and here is the crucial issue for me. NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF THE REST OF US.
More efficient than Perfect? How does that work?
Yep, but that's not enough, because the competition is FREE, Convenient, has Easy Logistics, is Perfectly Safe, and is effectively unlimited.
Nullsec facilities need to be significantly better than HS facilities in order to be competitive. And since HS facilities are currently Perfect for industry, they're going to have to be nerfed to allow space for Nullsec to be better than them. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2434
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Posted - 2013.01.20 11:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
SB Rico wrote:Why should they be better? Because some goon might come along and gank you in a belt? no wait sorry that is high sec. Cos all the mins i need are on my doorstep? no wait a second that is null sec.
Make it perfect in both null and high sec and achieve true fairness.
Because that's the only way they can be competitive. HS has Risk-Free Logistics, No Risk of loss due to management changes, and so on. To be competitive, Nullsec industry has to have better facilities.
As to why they should be better, it's because players built them. All HS facilities were given to you, FOR FREE by the magic of the server turning on. All Outposts were built by players at great cost, and are defended by players at great cost. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2434
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Posted - 2013.01.20 11:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Reduce the Material Multiplier in 0.0 stations and assembly arrays that are anchored in 0.0. Increase the yields of low end minerals roids in 0.0.
Fixing POSs/Corp roles would also go a long way in helping 0.0 industry.
... and then you either create a massive mineral faucet or permanently break refining (and ME research). This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2434
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Posted - 2013.01.20 13:05:00 -
[15] - Quote
Andski wrote:Wow I missed that "why not have everyone in nullsec run a POS" post
You mean the OP?  This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |

RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2434
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Posted - 2013.01.20 17:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:again the old problem comes from all sources, 1. the lack of interest in industry from part of the null dwellers, 2. the thing that CCP keeps nerfing high sec, when the problem is that null should have better rewards (not only in terms of bounties and resources but in industrial processes).
Which High Sec nerf are you talking about? Please be specific. This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
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