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RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2453
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Posted - 2013.01.24 06:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Stegas Tyrano wrote:So spending RL money or Plex for a second account isn't? Everyone who replied is a noob. Paying money for a second account is functionally no different than having another player so far as the game is concerned. That being the case is cooperating cheating?
Yes. Friendship is magic OP. Nerf Friendship.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2457
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Posted - 2013.01.25 02:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
Mag's wrote:The worst it could be accused of, is Pay2GetStuffWithoutGrindingOrWaitingForISK. Which is not the same thing.
Not even that. Somebody ground for that ISK. Somebody killed a Rat, sold to an NPC buy order, or got an insurance payout (or any other ISK faucet) to create the ISK that you receive when you sell a PLEX.
PLEX is PaySomeoneToGrindForYou.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2462
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Posted - 2013.01.25 20:34:00 -
[3] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote:Tul Breetai wrote:To add to this, functionally it's near impossible to enforce the pay-to-win that is alts, so ccp gave the practice their blessing (hey, what the heck, it's more money). It's still pay-to-win, and it's still wrong, but not worth enforcing. Therefore, it doesn't justify introducing something else to do the same thing at lower cost and with lower system requirements. Paying for an alt account doesn't give you an advantage over another person who doesn't pay money since accounts can be paid with isk, therefore it's not pay to win.
It also doesn't give you an advantage over another person who neither pays money or ISK but instead finds a friend to cooperate with.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2464
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Posted - 2013.01.25 23:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
In a game like EVE, where every item is freely traded on the market, P2W doesn't cause the same problems (of I paid, so I win) that it causes in other games.
The problem is that it introduces overpowered (or else why bother buying gold ammo in the first place) items that bypass the normal means of asset acquisition (or else they're not actually P2W items, they're just items).
Take "Gold Ammo"
Say it's 10% more powerful than faction ammo.
By introducing it, you've just devalued the effort of everyone who creates faction ammo through normal gameplay.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2468
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Posted - 2013.01.26 01:14:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tul Breetai wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Tul Breetai wrote:Are you honestly saying that is not an advantage expressly provided by my rl money? Yes because those advantages can be gained using isk instead. That's the beauty of the PLEX system. ... yes, and? I'm not complaining about it, but you have to admit I and many others wouldn't have the isk to gain those benefits as soon, or ever. I have more money than time, so I pay for advantages over others aka I pay-to-win, in the eve sense. That way I can enjoy my game. Maybe I'm not taking this omgserious enough?
Paying in game currency for in game advantages over others is called normal game mechanics in every video game ever that has an in game currency.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2469
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Posted - 2013.01.26 01:46:00 -
[6] - Quote
Tul Breetai wrote:RubyPorto wrote:
Paying in game currency for in game advantages over others is called normal game mechanics in every video game ever that has an in game currency.
Yes. That is precisely what you shouldn't respond to "paying RL money for advantages is pay-to-win" with.
Umm, what?
Paying Real Life money for In game advantages is the definition of Pay to Win.
PLEX is not that. You are paying real life money for game-time.
Selling PLEX is "Pay-to-have-someone-else-grind-for-you." That is all that it does. Nothing is created out of thin air (even the PLEX is only an in game representation of game-time purchased with cash, identical to all other game time which is purchased with cash), and no elements of the normal acquisition of in-game assets is skipped.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2469
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Posted - 2013.01.26 01:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
Tul Breetai wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:
You aren't getting an advantage over anyone else though. You paid real money to save time, that doesn't give you an advantage.
MY mistake. I didn't realize having 3 accounts isn't an advantage over my roommate who has neither time nor money to maintain more than one, ever. This isn't really stimulating anymore.
Good thing your roommate needs do neither to gain an advantage over you. He just needs to get 2 friends.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2472
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Posted - 2013.01.26 02:17:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tul Breetai wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:Tul Breetai wrote:RubyPorto wrote:
Good thing your roommate needs do neither to gain an advantage over you. He just needs to get 2 friends.
Yes. In-game, via in-game means, with time and possibly knowledge, responsibilties, personality, and assets invested. And I hope he can trust them as much as I can trust my alts, though they do have a mind of their own sometimes...  The underlined part debunked your entire argument. Paying for EVE stuff with real money doesn't give you an advantage that another player can't gain using in-game means. There is no pay to win in EVE. Quote:MY argument is that pay-to-win is paying for advantages. Advantages that may be otherwise impossible under the circumstances (i.e. immediate advantages that normally take time, cooperation, playing the game, etc.), but most certainly advantages that require playing the game before getting. I am paying for advantages in EVE, but it lets me play as if I invested more time than I've had to invest in the game. Oh well. You too. Logical fallacies. Google "debunk".
Using a different definition than everyone else and claiming you're correct because the definition that only you use fits your argument is some sort of fallacy.
Probably in the line of equivocation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy#Equivocation
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2480
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Posted - 2013.01.27 01:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
Mag's wrote:Captain Tardbar wrote:Mag's wrote:It was a short reply, simply because it had no relation to anything I said. If you want to put words into my mouth and think I'll accept them, you're sadly mistaken. But thanks anyway.  If you don't answer my questions nor try to disprove my argumentative points with clear and logical responses like they teach in high school English, then I suppose I have won this forum fight. I will commence with the smugness. You created 3 points in which you said that I assumed certain things. Then proceeded to post a reply to those 3 points. As I didn't assume any of those points, the rest of your post is irrelevant to me. If you believe this to be some sort of E-Victory, then grats I guess.
Oh, Mag's, why can't you just be a good guy and accept his straw men as valid basis for argument?
.... and please stop trying to eat my soul with your eyes....
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2514
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Posted - 2013.01.28 05:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
Ilhicamina wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Stegas Tyrano wrote:So spending RL money or Plex for a second account isn't? Everyone who replied is a noob. Paying money for a second account is functionally no different than having another player so far as the game is concerned. That being the case is cooperating cheating? No, but one person dualboxing that way is not functionally or ethically different than pay to win in any way.
Sure it is.
Pay To Win is paying Real Money for an In game advantage unobtainable through normal game mechanics.
Dualboxing is paying Real Money for an in game advantage that is otherwise obtainable through normal game mechanics (the mechanic: bring a friend).
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2538
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Posted - 2013.01.30 04:30:00 -
[11] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:All he did was create a pile of ISK that can be accumulated in game (in many cases very quickly depending on the resources available to you) and even more easily taken away from him.
Nitpick*: He acquired a pile of ISK. No ISK was created. IF PLEX actually created ISK, I would consider it pay to win, because the advantage (ISK) was created in a way that bypassed normal game mechanics.
The nitpick even allows me to add something substantive:
My definition of P2W has two prongs, each of which tends to be the primary definition in different types of games:
1. Pay to Win is acquiring an advantage that cannot be matched through normal gameplay (Soulbound** Premium items in games that have that sort of things.)
OR
2. Pay to Win is acquiring an advantage whose creation bypasses normal gameplay (Even through you'd be able to trade Gold Ammo in EVE, it would still be pay to win because it bypasses the normal gameplay of item creation***).
I think your argument is sound using either your definition or my two pronged one.****
*on what's probably a typo, but I think it's an important point to have crystal clear for everyone.
**WOW Terms, what have I become?
***In this case, primarily putting Faction Ammo producers out of business.
****I like mine better because I'm pretty sure a strict reading of yours implies that Gold Ammo would not be P2W in EVE.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
RubyPorto
Sniggwaffe
YOUR VOTES DON'T COUNT
2540
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Posted - 2013.01.30 06:18:00 -
[12] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:http://www.danwei.org/electronic_games/gambling_your_life_away_in_zt.php
Have a read about what P2W really is.
Yep. I'm not sure the slope is so slippery that there's a significant risk of something like that happening in EVE (especially as that sort of monitization scheme only seems to be popular in Asia), but that is a hell of a story.
This is EVE - Everybody Versus Everybody.
"the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built and we want to keep that (infact, this is much more representative of the consensus opinion within CCP)." -CCP Solomon |
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