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Moneta Curran Lunar Industries Ltd 6	Posted - 2013.01.25 14:55:00 - [1] - Quote I am a little peeved that the NPC targeting range far exceeds the range normal for the hulls. Whenever I am at a gate or an exploration site and I find myself targeted by one of the rats, even frig size, I find it next to impossible to burn out of range so I can cloak up because of the extreme targeting range assigned to NPCs. I cannot imagine any decent reason why rats should be able to target at ranges exceeding 100k. I suspect it has something to do with poorly implemented A.I. Why would I want to cloak up there, you ask? To get the jump on another player. (I live in low sec, which is actually great, contrary to popular belief). Please chime in if you agree.
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 452	Posted - 2013.01.25 14:59:00 - [2] - Quote They get called 'rats.' They die like rats, in vast numbers. NPCs needs some love... Even if it's only a chance to troll your cloak. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
Merouk Baas 469	Posted - 2013.01.25 15:15:00 - [3] - Quote Shrug, MWD to off the edge of the grid, cloak up, come back into the grid cloaked, and slowboat it back into range.
Xenuria The Scope Gallente Federation 698	Posted - 2013.01.25 15:17:00 - [4] - Quote For my CSM 8 platform I will be taking a close look at risk vs reward. The majority of PVE encounters are horribly outdated in some way and the rats themselves often so overpowered that some modules and skills are useless to the player character. CSM 8 Candidate Philanthropist Polymath Savant Hero
ITTigerClawIK Galactic Rangers R O G U E 185	Posted - 2013.01.25 15:19:00 - [5] - Quote i would honestly prefer less, but more powerfull Rats with slightly higher rewards each to compensate for the reduction in numbers.
Moneta Curran Lunar Industries Ltd 6	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:04:00 - [6] - Quote Merouk Baas wrote: Shrug, MWD to off the edge of the grid, cloak up, come back into the grid cloaked, and slowboat it back into range. That's a workaround, not a solution. A terrible workaround at that, because it means wasting a potential window of opportunity to be in the right place at the right time. It means that you will be exposed to dscan for your entire way out of grid.. which amounts to a 300km+ burn. Let's say you do an average 1000m/s out, that means you will be visible for 5 minutes. Long enough for even the most naive of carebears to ping dscan at least once. Just slowboat back, you say? Of course, I'll be back in a position to strike, in half an hour. Why complain, indeed.
Spurty V0LTA Verge of Collapse 756	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:20:00 - [7] - Quote I agree If I have a cloak fitted to my ship, nothing must ever be allowed to target me. CCP should break the game until it works how I want it to work. Also, posting in a 'Recons targetting range is x2 too far' thread (but OP doesn't know that yet). --- GÇ£If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.GÇ¥ GÇò Philip K. ****
Moneta Curran Lunar Industries Ltd 6	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:23:00 - [8] - Quote Spurty wrote: I agree If I have a cloak fitted to my ship, nothing must ever be allowed to target me. CCP should break the game until it works how I want it to work. Also, posting in a 'Recons targetting range is x2 too far' thread (but OP doesn't know that yet). Congratulations, you've just trumped Xenuria in shitposting.
Merouk Baas 469	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:24:00 - [9] - Quote Hey, don't blame me. I'm not the one choosing not to warp around cloaked in one of the MANY ships that can do so. You're choosing a cloak that CCP specifically coded that way, and are trying to use it in a very uncommon situation, and then making an OMG big deal about it. My response was along the lines of "well, if you want to stick to your setup THAT much, here you go." I don't really care. Everything is working as intended.
Moneta Curran Lunar Industries Ltd 6	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:29:00 - [10] - Quote Merouk Baas wrote: Hey, don't blame me. I'm not the one choosing NOT to warp around cloaked in one of the MANY ships that can do so. You're choosing a cloak that CCP specifically coded that way, and are trying to use it in a very uncommon situation, and then making an OMG big deal about it. My response was along the lines of "well, if you want to stick to your setup THAT much, here you go." I don't really care. Everything is working as intended. It's obviously is a very uncommon situation for you. It's indeed perfectly viable to just hang out there in plain sight and hope everyone will pretend you are not there. Why post if you don't care?
Tul Breetai Impromptu Asset Requisition Insurance Fraud. 170	Posted - 2013.01.25 16:58:00 - [11] - Quote Merouk Baas wrote: Hey, don't blame me. I'm not the one choosing NOT to warp around cloaked in one of the MANY ships that can do so. You're choosing a cloak that CCP specifically coded that way, and are trying to use it in a very uncommon situation, and then making an OMG big deal about it. My response was along the lines of "well, if you want to stick to your setup THAT much, here you go." I don't really care. Everything is working as intended. All... cloaks... are coded that way. His point is that rats have outrageous target ranges and thus affect all cloaks, and while you can " warp around cloaked in one of the MANY ships that can do so", it's irrelevant. In fact, everything you said is irrelevant... There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
Flakey Foont 226	Posted - 2013.01.25 17:17:00 - [12] - Quote Waah the computer is cheating! Make it easier!
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 452	Posted - 2013.01.25 17:46:00 - [13] - Quote Moneta Curran wrote: Merouk Baas wrote: Hey, don't blame me. I'm not the one choosing NOT to warp around cloaked in one of the MANY ships that can do so. You're choosing a cloak that CCP specifically coded that way, and are trying to use it in a very uncommon situation, and then making an OMG big deal about it. My response was along the lines of "well, if you want to stick to your setup THAT much, here you go." I don't really care. Everything is working as intended. It obviously is a very uncommon situation for you. This happens when you warp at 70km of something cloaked and still somehow hit an asteroid, structure or whatever collidable object, are decloacked and consequently targeted. So drop a bookmark, warp out, warp back at +10K. Problem solved. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
Moneta Curran Lunar Industries Ltd 6	Posted - 2013.01.25 17:50:00 - [14] - Quote Flakey Foont wrote: Waah the computer is cheating! Make it easier! To some extend, you get the point. It needn't be easier though. I am not asking for warp path optimization, some fancy coding that will actually place you where you ought to be when you land instead of just putting you at X km of the center of the site. So I am not decloaked ever or something. I don't see why NPCs need to be able to target from way, way farther out than players in comparable hulls, as this ruins our ability to recloak at a fair range. Of course, you never have this problem because you probably don't solo pvp anyway.
Xinivrae 296	Posted - 2013.01.25 17:54:00 - [15] - Quote Personally I feel the OP has a valid complaint. I have been targeted by rats the next asteroid field over from the one I was at in 0.0. Now rats are never dangerous, ever, but their targeting is seriously borked, and needs looking in to.
Sir Diablos The Plebian Republic 9	Posted - 2013.01.25 17:57:00 - [16] - Quote Flakey Foont wrote: Waah the computer is cheating! Make it easier! How deliciously ironic. I agree with the OP though, getting targeted by a Rifter or Kestrel rat at 60+ kilometers is pretty ridiculous in terms of continuity. But then again, continuity has never been CCP's strong suit. The devil is in the details...
Merouk Baas 473	Posted - 2013.01.25 18:04:00 - [17] - Quote Moneta Curran wrote: I don't see why NPCs need to be able to target from way, way farther out than players in comparable hulls... To reduce server load. Rats don't "see" like we do, the AI just has the list of everything in the grid and makes combat and pathing decisions based on that one list. Rat can't even move without targetting you first. CCP can change it so the AI "focuses" on you, moves closer, THEN targets you, but that's another change to the NPC AI and they just finished the last one, to huge complaints from a few players. Actually, you know what, if you really want this change to happen for you, think of a theme for the next expansion that they could implement this change under, and suggest it to them. They're looking for themes. Maybe they can lump together modular POSes, "fix sov!," and reduce NPC targetting range as part of an epic theme that does everything, epically.
De'Veldrin East India Ore Trade The East India Co. 812	Posted - 2013.01.25 18:29:00 - [18] - Quote Merouk Baas wrote: Moneta Curran wrote: I don't see why NPCs need to be able to target from way, way farther out than players in comparable hulls... To reduce server load. Rats don't "see" like we do, the AI just has the list of everything in the grid and makes combat and pathing decisions based on that one list. Rat can't even move without targetting you first. CCP can change it so the AI "focuses" on you, moves closer, THEN targets you, but that's another change to the NPC AI and they just finished the last one, to huge complaints from a few players. Actually, you know what, if you really want this change to happen for you, think of a theme for the next expansion that they could implement this change under, and suggest it to them. They're looking for themes. Maybe they can lump together modular POSes, "fix sov!," and reduce NPC targetting range as part of an epic theme that does everything, epically. Eve Online: Legen - think of a cow - dary! The Margin Trading Scam: If you fell for it, it's your own damned fault. Malcanis for CSM 8
Noriko Satomi Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 160	Posted - 2013.01.25 19:35:00 - [19] - Quote Merouk Baas wrote: Moneta Curran wrote: I don't see why NPCs need to be able to target from way, way farther out than players in comparable hulls... To reduce server load. Rats don't "see" like we do, the AI just has the list of everything in the grid and makes combat and pathing decisions based on that one list. Rat can't even move without targetting you first. CCP can change it so the AI "focuses" on you, moves closer, THEN targets you, but that's another change to the NPC AI and they just finished the last one, to huge complaints from a few players. Actually, you know what, if you really want this change to happen for you, think of a theme for the next expansion that they could implement this change under, and suggest it to them. They're looking for themes. Maybe they can lump together modular POSes, "fix sov!," and reduce NPC targetting range as part of an epic theme that does everything, epically. I don't think the fix is as simple as "reduce NPC targeting range." Rather, make the rats follow the same rules. I realize the lore says that there's Concord magic that interferes or alters Capsuleer interaction with non-capsuleers. This would, however, mean that there are sensors and ships capable of target lock at 300km. Were that the case, capsuleers ought to be able to use this on each other. I know, lore... lol. But in a fictional universe, the fiction matters doggone-it.
Spurty V0LTA Verge of Collapse 763	Posted - 2013.01.26 12:29:00 - [20] - Quote silens vesica wrote: Moneta Curran wrote: Merouk Baas wrote: Hey, don't blame me. I'm not the one choosing NOT to warp around cloaked in one of the MANY ships that can do so. You're choosing a cloak that CCP specifically coded that way, and are trying to use it in a very uncommon situation, and then making an OMG big deal about it. My response was along the lines of "well, if you want to stick to your setup THAT much, here you go." I don't really care. Everything is working as intended. It obviously is a very uncommon situation for you. This happens when you warp at 70km of something cloaked and still somehow hit an asteroid, structure or whatever collidable object, are decloacked and consequently targeted. So drop a bookmark, warp out, warp back at +10K. Problem solved. It's very clear he can't do this because it requires thinking. Breaking game or nothing for this chap. Ship poasting all day to ship ideas (there is logic to when bad posts are made. It's replies to awful posts) --- GÇ£If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.GÇ¥ GÇò Philip K. ****
Vaerah Vahrokha Vahrokh Consulting 3746	Posted - 2013.01.26 13:12:00 - [21] - Quote Merouk Baas wrote: To reduce server load. Rats don't "see" like we do, the AI just has the list of everything in the grid and makes combat and pathing decisions based on that one list. Rat can't even move without targetting you first. CCP can change it so the AI "focuses" on you, moves closer, THEN targets you, but that's another change to the NPC AI and they just finished the last one, to huge complaints from a few players. You do understand that the "server load" added by an "if (vector length > X)" statement is orders of magnitude less important than the most of the instructions the rat consumes per tick right? Actually, since rats not only EWAR but also fire from those distance, the server takes no less CPU at all, but more if anything. Auditing \| Collateral holding and insurance \| Consulting \| PLEX for Good Charity Twitter channel
Shirley Serious The Khanid Sisters of Athra 22	Posted - 2013.01.26 13:35:00 - [22] - Quote Spurty wrote: silens vesica wrote: So drop a bookmark, warp out, warp back at +10K. Problem solved. It's very clear he can't do this because it requires thinking. Breaking game or nothing for this chap. No, there's a reason why you can't warp out and back in this case. The OP stated they want to lurk cloaked in an exploration site, (and some other places), so they can get the jump on anyone else turning up at that site. But for many exploration sites, if you warp out, the site despawns. "So what?" you might ask. Well, it means that exploration sites, probably won't have cloaked players in them, ready to ambush the unwary. Might be a way to get around things using a 2nd account to draw npc attention while the cloaker ship enters and cloaks up, but that activity is more noticeable than a single ambushing cloaked player.
Texty State War Academy Caldari State 47	Posted - 2013.01.26 15:33:00 - [23] - Quote Currently, the rat's extreme lock range does have the benefit of letting us know they have noticed us and are coming for us though.
Alavaria Fera GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3299	Posted - 2013.01.26 15:36:00 - [24] - Quote Texty wrote: Currently, the rat's extreme lock range does have the benefit of letting us know they have noticed us and are coming for us though. This was an issue when the rats in all of a mission were "aggroing" a player on warp in and wrecking people, wasn't it? Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm
Texty State War Academy Caldari State 47	Posted - 2013.01.26 15:51:00 - [25] - Quote Alavaria Fera wrote: Texty wrote: Currently, the rat's extreme lock range does have the benefit of letting us know they have noticed us and are coming for us though. This was an issue when the rats in all of a mission were "aggroing" a player on warp in and wrecking people, wasn't it? The locking itself (yellow box) was not an issue, since they can't do anything until they come close enough (red box.) ... Or maybe I'm not getting what your trying to say (English isn't my first language.) I guess I wasn't clear enough, yellow box worked as an indicator of NPC aggro, so removing the NPC's long lock range is fine but I'll miss the aggro indicator factor, that's what I was trying to say.
Moneta Curran Lunar Industries Ltd 9	Posted - 2013.01.26 15:57:00 - [26] - Quote Shirley Serious wrote: Spurty wrote: silens vesica wrote: So drop a bookmark, warp out, warp back at +10K. Problem solved. It's very clear he can't do this because it requires thinking. Breaking game or nothing for this chap. No, there's a reason why you can't warp out and back in this case. The OP stated they want to lurk cloaked in an exploration site, (and some other places), so they can get the jump on anyone else turning up at that site. But for many exploration sites, if you warp out, the site despawns. "So what?" you might ask. Well, it means that exploration sites, probably won't have cloaked players in them, ready to ambush the unwary. Might be a way to get around things using a 2nd account to draw npc attention while the cloaker ship enters and cloaks up, but that activity is more noticeable than a single ambushing cloaked player. Luckily, it seems an exploration site doesn't despawn until you've actually interacted with it (i.e. ran a hacking module on a container or something equivalent) and then warp out. I am not 100% certain about this, just my impression. Warping out is what I am indeed forced to do currently; this is a waste of time compared to just being able to burn out of ordinary targeting range.
Moneta Curran Lunar Industries Ltd 9	Posted - 2013.01.26 16:03:00 - [27] - Quote Texty wrote: Alavaria Fera wrote: Texty wrote: Currently, the rat's extreme lock range does have the benefit of letting us know they have noticed us and are coming for us though. This was an issue when the rats in all of a mission were "aggroing" a player on warp in and wrecking people, wasn't it? The locking itself (yellow box) was not an issue, since they can't do anything until they come close enough (red box.) ... Or maybe I'm not getting what your trying to say (English isn't my first language.) I guess I wasn't clear enough, yellow box worked as an indicator of NPC aggro, so removing the NPC's long lock range is fine but I'll miss the aggro indicator factor, that's what I was trying to say. If you keep an eye on the distance between the rats and your ship, you should be fine. You would still see them yellow box you when they come into their actual targeting range.
Merouk Baas 476	Posted - 2013.01.26 17:23:00 - [28] - Quote Would create a new issue, though: not knowing whether the rats are on you or on your drones. Yes I could wait until they get into range, to see if they target me or not, but 1. I don't have their range memorized - never had to because the box just turned red at range, and 2. I won't have enough time to react since by the time I figure they're in range the drones are shot. Currently the indicators are as follows: - no color - rat isn't aggroing - yellow - rat is coming after me - red - rat is in range You want: - no color - rat isn't aggroing OR rat is coming after me OR rat is coming after my drones - yellow - rat is in range and immediately red - rat is shooting They do lock instantly, that's another issue. Maybe if they had a delay in targetting, even if the targetting had infinte range, it would let you cloak up, and solve your issue.
Moneta Curran Lunar Industries Ltd 10	Posted - 2013.01.26 17:40:00 - [29] - Quote Merouk Baas wrote: Would create a new issue, though: not knowing whether the rats are on you or on your drones. Yes I could wait until they get into range, to see if they target me or not, but 1. I don't have their range memorized - never had to because the box just turned red at range, and 2. I won't have enough time to react since by the time I figure they're in range the drones are shot. Currently the indicators are as follows: - no color - rat isn't aggroing - yellow - rat is coming after me - red - rat is in range You want: - no color - rat isn't aggroing OR rat is coming after me OR rat is coming after my drones - yellow - rat is in range and immediately red - rat is shooting They do lock instantly, that's another issue. Maybe if they had a delay in targetting, even if the targetting had infinte range, it would let you cloak up, and solve your issue. I appreciate that you offer up all these alternatives, but I really think their targeting range should just be restricted to be equivalent of that of a decently skilled player in the same hull. I couldn't actually care less about the whole carebear easy mode aspect of having advanced knowledge of which rats may be coming after you even before they are within range. That's just a 'fortunate' side effect of the same stupid mechanic.
Moneta Curran Lunar Industries Ltd 10	Posted - 2013.01.26 18:01:00 - [30] - Quote Spurty wrote: silens vesica wrote: Moneta Curran wrote: Merouk Baas wrote: Hey, don't blame me. I'm not the one choosing NOT to warp around cloaked in one of the MANY ships that can do so. You're choosing a cloak that CCP specifically coded that way, and are trying to use it in a very uncommon situation, and then making an OMG big deal about it. My response was along the lines of "well, if you want to stick to your setup THAT much, here you go." I don't really care. Everything is working as intended. It obviously is a very uncommon situation for you. This happens when you warp at 70km of something cloaked and still somehow hit an asteroid, structure or whatever collidable object, are decloacked and consequently targeted. So drop a bookmark, warp out, warp back at +10K. Problem solved. It's very clear he can't do this because it requires thinking. Breaking game or nothing for this chap. Ship poasting all day to ship ideas (there is logic to when bad posts are made. It's replies to awful posts) 24 hours have passed and this is what you came back with? I'm deeply impressed. Try to make a little sense instead of incoherently regurgitating forum leetspeak. Hush now.
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 457	Posted - 2013.01.26 21:09:00 - [31] - Quote Shirley Serious wrote: "So what?" you might ask. Well, it means that exploration sites, probably won't have cloaked players in them, ready to ambush the unwary. Indeed, I say exactly that. There are plenty of ways of nailing someone in an exploration site - I've even been victimized by a few. If he really wants to lurk in exploration sites, he's just going to have to do what everyone else does, and burn out of range then come back (to the dropped BM +10) if he can. Or slow-boat it back in. When I cloak-lurk, I'm committing to spending time to set up my kill. And to possibly not even getting anyone in my sights at all. If he can't exhibit patience, he's just going to have to use the other methods. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
I Love Boobies All Hail Boobies 339	Posted - 2013.01.26 22:14:00 - [32] - Quote So, if they change the targeting range on NPCs to appease your cloaking abilities, shouldn't they also change their tanks and DPS to match players too? ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) The world would be a better place if boobies ran the world instead of boobs.
Aza Ebanu Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 9	Posted - 2013.01.26 22:24:00 - [33] - Quote Yeah they should nerf the NPC hit points too.
Mars Theran Red Rogue Squadron 1607	Posted - 2013.01.26 22:29:00 - [34] - Quote NPCs train a little known skill unavailable to players. It is rank 15 and is called 'Super Targeting Range' With this skill NPCs can target lock and shoot further than players by 10% per level. Unfortunately, it's cost prevents them from training anything else effectively, and it is a must have for them, so they don't do any real damage as a side effect. Not only that, but it includes a 10% penalty to all weapon damage per level to compensate for the superior firing range it provides. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Aza Ebanu Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 9	Posted - 2013.01.26 22:47:00 - [35] - Quote Mars Theran wrote: I got nothing. FIXED.
Katran Luftschreck Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps 783	Posted - 2013.01.26 23:17:00 - [36] - Quote Going to hijack this thread by not trolling. CCP claims they want PvE to work more like PvP. Beyond making everyone live & die by the number of capacitor charges they can stuff into their cargo holds, they still refuse to touch the most basic problem of NPC ships not abiding by any of the same rules as PC ships. Rats don't have capacitor (and thus never run out). Their fittings rarely (if ever) even match the number of slots of PC ships, let alone the modules. Their hitspoint likewise don't correspond to anything PC ships use, either. Simply put, Rat ships are in their own little universe that follows exactly zero of the same rules as ours. EvE Forum Bingo

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