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Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Exhale.
607
   |
Posted - 2013.01.29 20:43:00 -
[31] - Quote
let's let this thread die.
Why i play EVE:-á20% for gameplay experience, 30% for the social aspect and 50% because of CCPGÇÖs empty promises.-á |
Daenor Falknor
Heaven's End
League of Infamy
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.29 21:06:00 -
[32] - Quote
After giving it some more thought, and considering the one aspect I had not addressed previously (hiding in your POS), I guess I can support 1 single idea that the OP floated. That's the idea of w-space systems that cannot be "owned".
As I understand it, a major complaint of a number of folks is that "carebear" inhabitants will just hide in their POS instead of fighting. And boo-hoo, we can't force them to come out and fight our 3:1 blob. Personally, I have no problem with them doing that if they want. You want them to fight, show a little bit of intelligence yourself, and use bait, etc.
However, adding "not ownable" systems (i.e. systems with no moons, therefore no ability to drop a POS), would likely entice people to be active someplace where they can't just warp to their POS. Reduce (not eliminate) sites in the current w-space systems and give these new systems more of the combat anoms and sigs (you can skip the grav/ladar sites, CCP). You want to farm sites? You can do a few in your own system, but if you want to get a bigger haul, you have to put yourself at higher risk.
Give these new systems a higher chance to be connected (kinda like the nullsec wormhole attracter upgrade brings more whs?). Five K162s with 25 combat anoms would provide a nice conflict driver without significant mechanic changes. |
Qvar Dar'Zanar
EVE University
Ivy League
252
|
Posted - 2013.01.30 00:16:00 -
[33] - Quote
Gnaw LF wrote:Rek Seven wrote:
But really, what are the conflict drivers in wormhole space?
Why would anyone want to spend billions in upgrades when Sleeper loot is already a fairly lucrative method of making ISK? And again you are coming back to the idea where someone has to do structure shooting. Right now there are plenty of conflict drivers in w-space, drivers such as epeen, trash talk in local, blue balling on fights and so on. If you want more conflict in w-space then maybe what we need is not new reason to kill each other but rather new opportunities. Such as less w-space systems, changing "undesirable" system effects (such as black hole) into something different, more null sec connections and so on.
90% agree.
WH space doesn't need more ways to make POS sieging painful for any of the sides involved. IMHO it needs making all the spectrum of systems atractive. You dont find people in whs because 75% of the system you connect to are crap and unhabited. Posible changes to improve this would be:
1. Tweaking of the stats of the black hole and the other one... magnetar?
2. C4 not being useless. Probably changing the ******** way the sleepers spawn.
3. Changing the C1/NS to C1/LS and C1/HS
4. Not sure how popular would this be, but I would consider giving C1 and C3 double statics, like C2. Rigth now living in a C3 sounds like a highway to boredom. Opinions? A similar but different aproach to this would be the one posted by Borlag in the other thread.
5. If the 2 previous points aren't possible, reduce the timer for unactivated sites despawn. That would give people living in constellations with low population a higher respawn of sites to run.
Aaaand I won't say more, I fear about being stabbed in my sleep every time I post in this forum  |
Kal Tracker
Guerrilla Army
Guerrilla .Warfare.
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 02:58:00 -
[34] - Quote
I would have to agree with this idea, we should add more types. If you don't like the one type of system move on the few of you that don't like the system types then don't use them. that simple move on with your self's. I can only guess you don't speck for all of eve players too for one I like the idea. Not changing but adding on too eve with more types.  |
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Exhale.
607
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 15:41:00 -
[35] - Quote
What's so bad about shooting structures?
POS bashes are pretty rare now but some of you are acting like it's something we have to do everyday...
Why i play EVE:-á20% for gameplay experience, 30% for the social aspect and 50% because of CCPGÇÖs empty promises.-á |
Gklar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 19:06:00 -
[36] - Quote
Daenor Falknor wrote:After giving it some more thought, and considering the one aspect I had not addressed previously (hiding in your POS), I guess I can support 1 single idea that the OP floated. That's the idea of w-space systems that cannot be "owned".
As I understand it, a major complaint of a number of folks is that "carebear" inhabitants will just hide in their POS instead of fighting. And boo-hoo, we can't force them to come out and fight our 3:1 blob. Personally, I have no problem with them doing that if they want. You want them to fight, show a little bit of intelligence yourself, and use bait, etc.
However, adding "not ownable" systems (i.e. systems with no moons, therefore no ability to drop a POS), would likely entice people to be active someplace where they can't just warp to their POS. Reduce (not eliminate) sites in the current w-space systems and give these new systems more of the combat anoms and sigs (you can skip the grav/ladar sites, CCP). You want to farm sites? You can do a few in your own system, but if you want to get a bigger haul, you have to put yourself at higher risk.
Give these new systems a higher chance to be connected (kinda like the nullsec wormhole attracter upgrade brings more whs?). Five K162s with 25 combat anoms would provide a nice conflict driver without significant mechanic changes.
What would you think about a new class of WH (maybe C0) that would be basically act as an entry/hub system. There would be a small number of systems in this class, but would have numerous connections (1-3 of each HS, LS, NS, C1-6, and 2 other hubs) and have no moons. This would attract both PvE players and PvP players to the system due to them containing features that both want (more access to HS, more sites for PvE, more player activity and WH connections for PvP). This idea wouldn't require any changes to any current WH mechanics, but they could benefit everyone at the same time.
To further the idea, I also thought about making these hub systems "capture-able". The more kills (ISK value) you get in a week, the higher your chances of capturing the hub system. The current week's winner would get some additional benefit that they'd lose the next week if they weren't on top the kill boards again. The benefit is up for debate, but could include things like controlling taxes in a WH market (if the hub system had a station), PvE/PvP boosts, combat sites, a static to your home all week, etc. |
chris elliot
EG CORP
Talocan United
125
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 19:29:00 -
[37] - Quote
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
WH space doesn't need more ways to make POS sieging painful for any of the sides involved. IMHO it needs making all the spectrum of systems atractive. You dont find people in whs because 75% of the system you connect to are crap and unhabited. Posible changes to improve this would be:
1. Tweaking of the stats of the black hole and the other one... magnetar?
Magnetars are fine, black holes, not so much.
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
2. C4 not being useless. Probably changing the ******** way the sleepers spawn.
Spawn mechanics are fine, c4's apart from being really quiet are fine as well. They allow people to get into the same relative systems as c2's and c5's without the crowding of the c2's or the risk of c5 epeen swinging.
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
3. Changing the C1/NS to C1/LS and C1/HS
4. Not sure how popular would this be, but I would consider giving C1 and C3 double statics, like C2. Rigth now living in a C3 sounds like a highway to boredom. Opinions? A similar but different aproach to this would be the one posted by Borlag in the other thread.
c3's are already highways, adding a second static to c4's however would be interesting because it would allow higher level wormholes to funnel down to c3's and c2's and allow the c2's to funnel up the same way.
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
5. If the 2 previous points aren't possible, reduce the timer for unactivated sites despawn. That would give people living in constellations with low population a higher respawn of sites to run.
That would reduce the risk of wormholes though, if you can farm safely in your own system and you lock it down there is no added opportunity to kill you. Having to go out and farm in your static or chain however is, I think, a necessary part of the risk/reward ratio.
|
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
354
|
Posted - 2013.01.31 23:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
Why don't you just go to nullsec...if you want nullsec space in wspace...same thing......people will still blob you in "wspace" as in null for it. |
Kal Tracker
Guerrilla Army
Guerrilla .Warfare.
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.01 15:07:00 -
[39] - Quote
Changing how we can live and do more in worm hole space should be looked into. As CCP wont change player own space.. for at least now, as they want to work on other projects. Something that can effect lot of player base, with little effect needed. |
Qvar Dar'Zanar
EVE University
Ivy League
252
|
Posted - 2013.02.04 01:29:00 -
[40] - Quote
chris elliot wrote:
Spawn mechanics are fine, c4's apart from being really quiet are fine as well. They allow people to get into the same relative systems as c2's and c5's without the crowding of the c2's or the risk of c5 epeen swinging.
And how would you explain that they are 'really quiet'? I went to a C4 once, to run some sites. Never again. |
BEPOHNKA
Legions Force
25
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 05:15:00 -
[41] - Quote
ahhhh lot of posts i see on this topic.
At this point i would like to see more different types of living owning and gain from them. Not just a simple change in bonces you get in the system. |
Sushi Nardieu
Bite Me inc
Bitten.
65
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 06:41:00 -
[42] - Quote
Messoroz wrote:Why don't you just go to nullsec...if you want nullsec space in wspace...same thing......people will still blob you in "wspace" as in null for it.
Yeah. What?
Guns of Knowledge-á |
Taz Edenrunner
The Dark Space Initiative
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 08:50:00 -
[43] - Quote
you want more conflict in WHs....get out of your F*&king POS and home sysem and go roaming.....its easy, take a scout to scan down holes, gang jumps through hole, rinse and repeat until you find targets or targets find you
Notes:
you wont have caps to back you up
you may find yourself outnumbered
you may lose ships
you may get podded
Seriously, WH is getting stale purely because people perfer to stay in their home system and roll WHs until they find easy gank targets which present little to no risk to their ships
And stop with this 'turn WHs into null' stuff before we all blue each other and form major power blocks and turn into the nullsec bears that whine 0.0 is boring |
Night Beagle
Insidious Design
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 12:22:00 -
[44] - Quote
WH conflict is as good as the people living in WH. Some changes to the game can help, but as long as WH space remains on a policy of "if it moves shoot it" and people roam, we will all have fun.
Blobs can happen in WH, but unlike null, one can escape if prepared. Large alliance can be found too, but the little guys can always have their share of fun pew. WH space is special because of the people living in it.
Happy hunting!
|
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Exhale.
609
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 12:33:00 -
[45] - Quote
Taz Edenrunner wrote:
Seriously, WH is getting stale purely because people perfer to stay in their home system and roll WHs until they find easy gank targets which present little to no risk to their ships
I disagree. I think it's stale (for some people) because the mechanics are pretty simple and the only place fights happen is on a WH or in a site (which is not really pvp).
As for people rolling... If you want a fight but nothing is going on in your chain, do you expect people to just sit twiddling their thumbs until something happens?
Why i play EVE:-á20% for gameplay experience, 30% for the social aspect and 50% because of CCPGÇÖs empty promises.-á |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
1120
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 13:19:00 -
[46] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Taz Edenrunner wrote:
Seriously, WH is getting stale purely because people perfer to stay in their home system and roll WHs until they find easy gank targets which present little to no risk to their ships
I disagree. I think it's stale (for some people) because the mechanics are pretty simple and the only place fights happen is on a WH or in a site (which is not really pvp). As for people rolling... If you want a fight but nothing is going on in your chain, do you expect people to just sit twiddling their thumbs until something happens?
I don't think he is saying to stay in your WH and twiddle your thumbs, but instead to actually "roam"
IE, you roll your static, the WH doesnt show any activity so you scan down that WH looking for more WH's etc.
IMO I don't know if that has any better success. Last night from our home WH I spent most of the evening "roaming". I ended up finding 6 different WH's in my travels. Only one had activity with people actively running sites. They must have caught me on dscan cause they bugged out and left the system before I could figure out which WH they had come through.
In some ways having more WH connections seems like it may help. Either via multiple WH statics, or a higher rate of random (wandering) WH's. But even those seem that they might server to mostly increase the chances of ganking PVE'rs than actually causing more fights. |
Taz Edenrunner
The Dark Space Initiative
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 15:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
No i do mean leave your home & static WHs, one of the things that attracted me to WH was reading blogs and forums warstories of small gangs roaming through WH space serveal connections deep from their home system and getting into engagements....All I see these days are people rolling their static looking for easy ganks.
WH is all about making the most of what CCP has given us, mass limits on WHs, the (nearly) random nature of connections, the additional skills needed to scan down the connecting WHs are key in what make it different to null. We dont have sov to fight over, no supers, large corps or alliances spread over 2 or more WH infrequently see each other, no local allowing for surprise ganks....
Do we really need to stagnate like null while begging CCP to provide conflict drivers, when all we really need to do is take more risks and get ut of home WH where dreadblapping or blobs make the majority of fights 1 sided |
Night Beagle
Insidious Design
3
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 15:36:00 -
[48] - Quote
Taz Edenrunner wrote:
Do we really need to stagnate like null while begging CCP to provide conflict drivers, when all we really need to do is take more risks and get ut of home WH where dreadblapping or blobs make the majority of fights 1 sided
Fix the people not the game :) ... although more toys and ways to use them never hurts.
|
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Exhale.
610
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 15:54:00 -
[49] - Quote
So what's the answer? climb up on a soap box and tell everyone how to play... When you've finished that i would love to hear how you think CCP would go about getting people to take more risks or roam more without changing/adding game mechanics.
In all honesty, high class and low class wormhole pvp is vastly different. In low end wormholes you tend to see a lot more tactical, small gang pvp (wich is more exciting IMO) and in high end wormholes all i see is ganks and slug fests. However, I think this is all A product of wormhole design and i don't think it's fair to criticize people for using efficient tactics.
... but we digress. This thread is about ideas to increase the incentives/opportunities for fights.
Why i play EVE:-á20% for gameplay experience, 30% for the social aspect and 50% because of CCPGÇÖs empty promises.-á |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1914
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 16:17:00 -
[50] - Quote
Preventing SD inside POS ff would motivate me to provide more opportunities for fights.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
1120
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 16:36:00 -
[51] - Quote
Roime wrote:Preventing SD inside POS ff would motivate me to provide more opportunities for fights.
Exactly how? Cause I don't see this change causing defenders to suddenly go "ok let's fight" |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1918
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 17:32:00 -
[52] - Quote
They don't have to fight, but at least the winners then get their ships. Or get to blow them up.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings
Situation: Normal
1120
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 17:43:00 -
[53] - Quote
Roime wrote:They don't have to fight, but at least the winners then get their ships. Or get to blow them up.
Maybe,
You'd still have to maintain full coverage during the entire OP, during the reinforcement timer. Otherwise they'd still just warp em all to safes and SD there.
Doesn't make a POS siege any less boring. Only hopefully less unprofitable. |
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1919
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 17:51:00 -
[54] - Quote
Well, just a matter of perspective, PVE is boring but people do it for profit. I'd rather siege a POS for iskies than shoot red crosses.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
Atrocitas
2928
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 18:03:00 -
[55] - Quote
Roime wrote:Well, just a matter of perspective, PVE is boring but people do it for profit. I'd rather siege a POS for iskies than shoot red crosses.
You can stop shooting red crosses when you need to take a ****. You can't really stop sieging the POS for the next 8 hours though.
Bleh. **** that noise.
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD
Exhale.
610
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 18:20:00 -
[56] - Quote
As he said it's a matter of perspective. If someone thinks shooting a pos is more interesting than shooting sleeper, who are we to argue?!
No SDing in a ff might make the pos owners say "well we're going to lose our stuff anyway, let's not go down without a fight". Right now it's just used as a method of denying the attacker loot/killmails.
Why i play EVE:-á20% for gameplay experience, 30% for the social aspect and 50% because of CCPGÇÖs empty promises.-á |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
Atrocitas
2928
|
Posted - 2013.02.06 18:44:00 -
[57] - Quote
I like to think that there's objective measurements of user engagement. Staring at the screen and not interacting with it for hours and hours and hours while your lasers go "FREEEEEEEM" is not very engaging.
-Liang
Ed: On the other hand, spending a half hour organizing your titan force so that you instapop a large POS is highly engaging.
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1925
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 05:45:00 -
[58] - Quote
Liang I'm not actually arguing that the structure grind when nobody tries to shoot back would be interesting, but a siege operation with resistance and promise of shinies dropping from the hangars is far more fun than repetitive PVE- because of human interaction.
Currently it just defaults to small entities not even trying to fight back another small entity, because SD gives you ISK and saves your killboard from the chance of turning into a sea of red. POSes are disposable and finding a new similar wormhole to set up shop is trivial in all but C6s.
Like Rek said, having it all at stake might make even the furriest little bears to fleet up and give it a go. Or try to negotiate a solution.
Going thru all the hassle of a full-blown siege just to watch SD notifications for a day is among the most depressing things I've experienced in EVE.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
Atrocitas
2929
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 05:50:00 -
[59] - Quote
I've gotten offers of negotiation every time I've ever been involved in knocking over a wormhole system. We've even taken some of them and gone to find other wormholes to knock over. I can't help but think people don't feel you're interested in negotiation if they're not offering it. To me, SDing is a completely legitimate tactic for denying assets to the enemy and I don't believe that removing it would help encourage people to fleet up or negotiate in any way.
Instead, it seems to me that all it'd really do is potentially let you (plural) blob harder and get bigger rewards. /shrug
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?)
Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com
PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos
Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Roime
Shiva Furnace
1925
|
Posted - 2013.02.07 06:21:00 -
[60] - Quote
Yes, it would lead to bigger rewards and thus more sieges, which would result in stronger incentive to form contacts to fight the invaders.
I just think a situation that promotes small entities teaming up to protect themselves leads to more everyday pvp- a system full of active players has more potential to give birth to ad-hoc encounters than a system occupied by a small corp that is protected by lack of motivation from invaders caused SD mechanics.
Furthermore corporations teaming up in one hole with others are more likely to last longer and thrive than small startups setting up operations in some desolate hole.
Some people will say that increased risk will disencourage people from settling w-space, but I don't see any difference between a completely empty hole and one occupied by a 5-man harvesting operation who are either offline or sit in POS. Neither has any fights and we'll just roll a new one.
This of course raises the question of the amount of wormhole systems and unique properties that OP talks about. Would w-space be better if there were less holes, or more systems that would be worth fighting for than others?
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
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