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Bohoba
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Posted - 2005.07.09 13:51:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Chippie MS
Edited by: Chippie MS on 09/07/2005 13:36:05
Originally by: Bohoba
Originally by: Chippie MS
Yes T2 will better the point of the change was so that huge weapons cant hit tiny ships its all very simple. Caldari was the only race that could....now it cant deal with it everyone else had to.
not true you can hit them with good damage at 20-60k now we can't this is my point
10-40 damage while your doing quite a bit more
Ok ill modify my statement "dont be expect to be able to hit em with anything worthwhile just like in any other race"
Yes you can just use different ammo...... if i want to hit em over 20k ill have to switch crystals so you switch to cruise (they fit in siege still as far as i know) get your skills up and you will prolly need 2 missiles to kill em with beams ill fire 7 shots hit it maybe once and it will take 2-3 hits (I use t2 megas) to kill so going on that rationale with your skills up you should have to use 18 torps to kill one.
So its just adapting or whack in drones its all very simple and not as big a problem as most people are making it out to be.
If people had read the dev blogs and thought mmmm t2 launchers and a missile nerf are coming...... i fly caldari ships..... what should i train??? i have a couple of cladari pilot corp mates and they are not bothered by the nerf cos they actually prepared for it then they will spend a few weeks and everyone will be all smily again. But im sure people will whine about friegthers and Dreads when they start getting em
:) just wanted to clear that up about orbiting hell If I let em get that close I deserve to die lol
still a hard Nerf to swallow but will adapt OH and NO cruise missiles no longer fit in a siege launcher so now also a Trop raven if jammed has no defense no fof's just another gotcha lol but thats with all races so no biggie
Get Into the Game it makes it fun for all |
BIRDofPREY
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Posted - 2005.07.09 13:58:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Oi Poloi
stop whining and start training those skills
I've trained the skills to lvl 3/4 and did the math (It's what I do for a living) and from the methods used to determine damage, it will still take a large number of torps/cruise/ heavy missiles to take down a frigate. As it stands now - the frigate is effectively invulnerable to conventional means of attack.
I have been experimenting with a Raven to determine the best means of taking out frigates and it appears to be drones. I tried to use projectiles and rails; tech II projectiles don't have the bonus to make them effective on a raven. Small rails are okay, but still leave a great deal to be desired.
I tried Heavy missile with the same effect - minimal damage to frigates. So Drones are the only effective means against non elite frigate - against elite there is nothing that will help you.
What is very much out of balance is Battleship on cruiser damage. Cruisers have found themselves in a Grey area between combat ineffective (Frigates) and Ubber damage (Battleship). Using both heavy and cruise on Cruisers was almost as bad as frigates.
I have decided that CCP came up with a reasonalbe idea for damage on frigates, but didn't implement it properly. They rely on Speed (absolute Velocity) to determine damage when they should have used simple velocity. The difference is that velocity takes into acount direction of travel. Flying into a blast would do considerable damage if direction of travel wast taken into account. This is actually quite simple if you use simple trig' and vector equations; This any Calculus 3 student can attest too. For those not yet to that level of math, Vector math is very simple, once you know the trick.
THe way missiles work now is very counter intuitive. But then again, many things in EVE are backwards to the physics of the real world.
Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
Vilserx
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Posted - 2005.07.09 14:07:00 -
[33]
Originally by: BIRDofPREY
Originally by: Oi Poloi
stop whining and start training those skills
What is very much out of balance is Battleship on cruiser damage. Cruisers have found themselves in a Grey area between combat ineffective (Frigates) and Ubber damage (Battleship). Using both heavy and cruise on Cruisers was almost as bad as frigates.
Considering, on missions (where most complaints are emanating from), cruisers make up most of the enemy fleets (most non-DS missions have 10+ cruisers in most spawns) it is a problem.
Cruise, Torps AND Heavy Missiles (supposively the Cruiser-weapon) do only about 130 damage per missile to a cruiser. Heavy Missiles useless on a BS, as torps outdamage them and deal greater damage to Battleships.
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VSX EVE Design |
NightmareX
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Posted - 2005.07.09 14:09:00 -
[34]
Edited by: NightmareX on 09/07/2005 14:10:32
Hmmm, i don't have any problem to kill frigs now, since i have most of the new missile skills at level 3. The biggest problem is to kill frigs and small drones that are orbiting you, but i only equip 2x Heavy Pulse Laser I on my raven, instead of 2x Heavy Nos. And then you hit them and kill them fast. And yeah, i'm using 6x Shock limos Siege Launchers, and have no problem at all.
Now you will see what kind of damage i do on Frigs, Cruisers, and Battleships
And here you can see some hits on frigs:
[ 2005.07.09 07:01:17 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Dread Pithi Demolisher, doing 271.5 damage.
[ 2005.07.09 06:59:19 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Dread Pithi Destructor, doing 269.0 damage.
And i got a damage like this in 65-70% of my hits
And here is damages on Cruisers:
[ 2005.07.09 08:13:46 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Guristas Mortifier, doing 350.2 damage.
[ 2005.07.09 08:13:10 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Guristas Mortifier, doing 346.8 damage.
I don't get a damage like this so often on cruisers, but i hit them with damage like this on 40% of my hits
And for battleships:
[ 2005.07.09 07:50:49 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Dread Pith Usurper, doing 546.1 damage.
[ 2005.07.09 07:50:34 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Dread Pith Usurper, doing 545.9 damage.
[ 2005.07.09 07:25:00 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Dread Pith Destroyer, doing 547.0 damage.
[ 2005.07.09 09:26:15 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Pith Conquistador, doing 548.0 damage.
[ 2005.07.08 19:15:33 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Pith Extinguisher, doing 548.5 damage.
[ 2005.07.08 19:10:39 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Pith Extinguisher, doing 548.4 damage.
And i get damage like this on 99% of my hits , but this is damage on structure.
So i still pwn and have no problem at all.
And yeah, i love this patch
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Kerby Lane
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Posted - 2005.07.09 14:13:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Kerby Lane on 09/07/2005 14:15:37
Originally by: ortaga
for all u non missile users please explaine why this is now fair. it took me 78 torps to kill 1 gamma 2 frig.
Try to kill 1 frig with Tempest with 1400 arty without painters and webs - you can spend all you life firing an will never kill it.
So what ?
Why dont 1400 users whine ?
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.07.09 14:24:00 -
[36]
"Now you will see what kind of damage i do on Frigs, Cruisers, and Battleships
And here you can see some hits on frigs:
[ 2005.07.09 07:01:17 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Dread Pithi Demolisher, doing 271.5 damage.
[ 2005.07.09 06:59:19 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Dread Pithi Destructor, doing 269.0 damage.
And i got a damage like this in 65-70% of my hits"
Bug report it, please.
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Nostradamu5
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Posted - 2005.07.09 14:51:00 -
[37]
All I want to know was what was your frame of mind at torp 77?
Talk about persistance you're the king.....or you're something else
Faulty testing kept me from delivering the "Logic Editor" earlier.
I was using my own post and it kept blanking everything out.
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ATRADE
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Posted - 2005.07.09 15:02:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Dajjal
fit a rack of tachyons on an apoc then go try kill frigates
guess what? u miss. why should siege/torps be any different? (apart from the fact u actually hit - albeit for low damage...)
you kill every frigate with tachyons instantly! exept if they orpbit you. so i want the same advantage with torpedos. if target is away 30k+ i do full damage like with lasers. so stop tellign bull****!
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nahtoh
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Posted - 2005.07.09 15:04:00 -
[39]
Originally by: NightmareX
And here you can see some hits on Frigs:
[ 2005.07.09 07:01:17 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Dread Pithi Demolisher, doing 271.5 damage.
[ 2005.07.09 06:59:19 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Dread Pithi Destructor, doing 269.0 damage.
And i got a damage like this in 65-70% of my hits
To bad they they are not fast frigs...what did you get against webifers and kouykans <SP>? As they are the dangerous frigs in missions...
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but
why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the
problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
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NightmareX
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Posted - 2005.07.09 15:21:00 -
[40]
Edited by: NightmareX on 09/07/2005 15:21:53
Originally by: nahtoh
Originally by: NightmareX
And here you can see some hits on Frigs:
[ 2005.07.09 07:01:17 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Dread Pithi Demolisher, doing 271.5 damage.
[ 2005.07.09 06:59:19 ] (combat) Your Juggernaut Torpedo I hits Dread Pithi Destructor, doing 269.0 damage.
And i got a damage like this in 65-70% of my hits
To bad they they are not fast frigs...what did you get against webifers and kouykans <SP>? As they are the dangerous frigs in missions...
I will post the damages against webifers and kouykans here if this topic is active when my next mission come with those frigs
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nahtoh
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Posted - 2005.07.09 22:39:00 -
[41]
Originally by: NightmareX
I will post the damages against webifers and kouykans here if this topic is active when my next mission come with those frigs
Ta nightmare...
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but
why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the
problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
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Cylynex
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Posted - 2005.07.09 22:44:00 -
[42]
I hit frigs with my 1400's no problem, at decent range. If they get too close I use my 800 or drones. Is there some reason after a week and about 500 pages of whining that missile user's can't adapt to this situation and use the available weapons, train additional skills, or FFS use a different ship? It's getting really dumb that every day there is another page of new threads whining because the missiles were changed, for the better I might add.
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Antic
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Posted - 2005.07.09 22:55:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Antic on 09/07/2005 22:59:02
Switch to cruise launchers and train GNP or have a mixed siege cruise launcher setup and train GNP. Workable after that but you better have decent gunnery skills to fit two turrets in the last slots for additional small target killing power.
Wichever you do Guided missile precission(GNP) is now a must. And you will find that it dosnt apply to torpedoes. Also having it at lvl 5 even dosnt give you your former damage glory back to your cruises. Warhead upgrades and the increased RoF with rapid launch helps the DPS back up. Getting GNP to lvl 5 isnt a cakewalk though. Cruise used to be the missile skill wit highest Rank requirement (rank 5 for long training times) but GNP now has the very same training time req. of course the spec skill added now have higher reqs.
But the main gripe with all this that you can not adress in any way with all the new and old skills are the size of the missile ammo and its resource cost. You actualy spend more ammo for each target now than before (lower damage per missile) and you launch them faster (higher RoF) but still your ammo capacity is as low as it was before and the ammo is still as expensive although its value per missile was very much reduced. And the missile specialization skills added now dosnt directly add damage but inderectly so by rising ROF, wich again gets impacted by this ammo size/cost problem.
Also the speed part of the change has some really wierd calcs going on. even with max TP skill you still wont do full damage to a battleship with torps or cruise if the battleship is using AB or overdrives. MWD you do though cus it adds the sig radious penality. ANd range dosnt matter for this so the damage can be avoided/reduced outside web and painter range as missiles are now long range, especialy if paired with a defender launcher.
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Bull Slater
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Posted - 2005.07.09 23:25:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Cylynex
I hit frigs with my 1400's no problem, at decent range. If they get too close I use my 800 or drones. Is there some reason after a week and about 500 pages of whining that missile user's can't adapt to this situation and use the available weapons, train additional skills, or FFS use a different ship? It's getting really dumb that every day there is another page of new threads whining because the missiles were changed, for the better I might add.
There, that is the problem Cylynex. At decent range you can kill frigs with your 1400's no problem. Torpedos, cruise missiles, whatever... can't, no matter what the skills. While I don't agree with the original whine, this is something separate and not fair. How can it be fair for you to be able to shoot something travelling in a straight line at you from range yet a torpedo or cruise missile etc.. can't? Either make it the same or stop trying to make missiles a 4th turret type, missiles by their very definition are not turrets and should not operate the same.
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.07.09 23:29:00 -
[45]
Originally by: ortaga
it took me 78 torps to kill 1 gamma 2 frig.
I'm ashamed to say we belong to the same species; you actually sat there and fired off 78 torps at a frigate
One scout drone could have probably killed it faster
________________________________________________________
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nahtoh
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Posted - 2005.07.09 23:54:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: ortaga
it took me 78 torps to kill 1 gamma 2 frig.
I'm ashamed to say we belong to the same species; you actually sat there and fired off 78 torps at a frigate
One scout drone could have probably killed it faster
well i hate admit it but i once fired off a entire raven load at a spider drone (90 torps maybe 91) and that was pre patch ..sue me i was bored and it was the only thing left, through some really good luck on its part it avoided every sodding one, nice corkscrew pattern though 
"I am not saying there should be capital punishment for stupidity, but
why can`t we just take the safety labels off everything and let the
problem solve itself" (credits to mcallister TCS)
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Jennai
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Posted - 2005.07.10 00:52:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Antic
Edited by: Antic on 09/07/2005 22:59:02
But the main gripe with all this that you can not adress in any way with all the new and old skills are the size of the missile ammo and its resource cost. You actualy spend more ammo for each target now than before (lower damage per missile) and you launch them faster (higher RoF) but still your ammo capacity is as low as it was before and the ammo is still as expensive although its value per missile was very much reduced.
100 units antimatter L = ~11k
100 juggernaut torpedo = ~33k
antimatter L damage (425mm): 28K+20T x 2.75 multiplier (base value) = 132 damage per shot
antimatter L damage (350mm): 28K+20T x 2.00 multiplier (base value) = 96 damage per shot
juggernaut damage: 450K
damage per isk:
antimatter L (425mm) = 132 x 100 / 11000 = 1.2
antimatter L (350mm) = 96 x 100 / 11000 = 0.87
juggernaut = 450 x 100 / 33000 = 1.36
note that these calculations do not include the effects of misses or low damage hits.
other types of hybrid ammo may be more cost effective, but missile users are in no position to whine about resource costs. if you think it's bad now, you should have seen it a year ago when using missiles to kill a 0.5 belt frigate would cost more than you'd get in bounty.
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Borzoi
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Posted - 2005.07.10 01:25:00 -
[48]
78 torps to kill a frig ...
good, finally a missil change, ADAPT
...
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lindie
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Posted - 2005.07.10 02:44:00 -
[49]
when are you going to get it. did not come here to adapt. dont want to sit around while new skills train who wants your advice if its not constructive or helpfull like you we pay to. this patch is the biggest load of bollicks ive come accross in eve spoilt my whole game, every area there there is problems maybe some will work out in the end maybe not. the fact is for a lot of people its crap there was plenty of defences for missiles you seem to have forgoten about, which you did not get with other weapons so why should i have to sit around while months of skills are trained trying to work out what im going to do cos everyting im used to and enjoyed with the game is gone you adapt to small changes diferent senerios not new games that you did not sign up for seems to me theres a lot of people out there that just love to see people not having a good time which just shows how sad you are
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ortaga
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Posted - 2005.07.10 09:10:00 -
[50]
well put lindi. i am going to adapt by training my galanti ship skills because with all the extra disadvantages u have now with missiles i think it will be more benificial. the only ship i plan to keep is my harpy. ppl can call u whiners all day long they seem to enjoy the fact that for wotever reason a lot of us are pi***d off. we know that caldari ships had some good advantages with missiles (and some disadvantages) i feel like ive waisted a lot of skill going in a certain direction in the game. the only good thing i can see now is i look forward to using galanti ships, but surely this cant be right, after all, i am caldari.
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ATRADE
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Posted - 2005.07.10 10:17:00 -
[51]
Edited by: ATRADE on 10/07/2005 10:18:31
i just dont understand teh supidity of people not learnign caldari bs skill pre patch and took advantage of the ravens ability but prefered whining that raven wa s overpowered. i mean it only cost you so ******* les sp to fly a raven. WHY DIDNT YOU DO SO! and stuck with your less effective but more skill intensive turrets? turrret users point completely does not make any sense to me.
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ATRADE
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Posted - 2005.07.10 10:18:00 -
[52]
as well as my own post, but sorry i only have lvl 1 in english.
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Lisa Run
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Posted - 2005.07.10 10:18:00 -
[53]
Tried two heavy launchers against fregattes yesterday. They are useless against them, too. Had a spawn with 4 archangel hunters and 1 warlords.
I webbed the hunter with a prototype webber, but its shield regeneration rate is as high as the damage of 2 heavy launchers. Useless, so I equipped 6 sieges again.
Drones work best, but if you're unlucky and fight a bunch missile cruisers, some of them just switch target as soon as you start your drones and shoot them down. Had that a few times yesterday. The KI has changed I think.
My hunting tactics now is to look for easy spawns and then I ignore everything else and kill the battleship(s) first. Have to wait 4 days for missile launcher op. 5 and cruise missiles. I'm not a Caldari pilot and I didn't need cruise missiles so far.
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ATRADE
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Posted - 2005.07.10 10:23:00 -
[54]
Edited by: ATRADE on 10/07/2005 10:23:10
also i agree that i dont want to adapt and im also not going to die or quit. i just want my old abilities back and train new skills helping improving my abilities even more. i even want to do more damage with my torpedos. if you have a problem with powerful torpedos just dont engage a raven in a frigate. and simply dont fly a raven. if you want a chalange in doing lvl4's go hop in a mega.
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Zaldiri
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Posted - 2005.07.10 10:49:00 -
[55]
Its not as if the missile nerf was a surprise or anything. You could tell it was comming this time last year.
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Whatcha Lookinat
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Posted - 2005.07.10 10:58:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Oi Poloi
stop whining and start training those skills
Period.
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ATRADE
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Posted - 2005.07.10 11:02:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Zaldiri
Its not as if the missile nerf was a surprise or anything. You could tell it was comming this time last year.
sure but nobody knew how devasting those changes would be. it also was not possible to acurately test those changes on sis.
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ATRADE
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Posted - 2005.07.10 11:04:00 -
[58]
anyway i still suggest that you give the top tier caldari bs 2 additional launcher hps so you can fit 2 assault launchers (preferably 2 new ones designet for battle ship) so that you don have to train 2 sets of skill trees.
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Lilan Kahn
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Posted - 2005.07.10 11:29:00 -
[59]
try 2 rocket lunchers with rockets in a picnh you can change them to anti missel deffens
Originally by: Eris Discordia
We break after X amount of threads, then we go wild and then we get our medication.
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Citizen Angstrom
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Posted - 2005.07.10 11:43:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Citizen Angstrom on 10/07/2005 11:44:25
Anyone who can say "78 torps to kill a frigate? ...Good." and mean it, is never going to find a fair comment to say about missiles.
CCP took a terrible wrong turn, with the philosophy of EVE, back when they introduced Interceptors. That decision set this series of nerfs (and a lot of the other nerfs recently, like the pulse lasers and dual AB) into an inevitable pattern. Simply put, CCP decided to implement the 'Star Wars' combat model, rather than the 'Star Trek' one.
I'll explain. In 'Star Wars', what sort of ship do you want to fly? A small one, right. X-Wings can, eventually, and if they are persistent, destroy even an Imperial Death Star. In 'Star Trek', what kind of ship do you want to fly? A Big one, right. Not a warp shuttle. A Borg cube, or a Federation Dreadnaught with warp engines and photon torpedo launchers dripping off it. Small ships go 'pop' if they attack big ships in 'Star Trek'.
Now, when CCP went down the 'Star Wars' combat route, they had to remove the possibility of big ships killing little ships in a hurry, or even at all, preferably. Hence all of these nerfs. The next-easiest way to kill small ships with big ships is via drones. Expect a series of drone nerfs to be introduced in parallel with T2 drones. You heard it here first! 
It's a shame, since I sort of like big ships...
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