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Is Eve trying to push people into Megacorps?

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Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:13:00 - [1] The more the Eve universe changes, the more it seems that the developers are pushing the players to megacorps. Currently the smaller and mid sized corps seem to have very little chance within the Eve environment unless they wish to devolve to piracy. However, I will leave piracy out of this post as I dont believe it takes much skill nor adds much to Eve. For example, we can take the colonization of 0.0 space. Currently you need to have a great deal of resources to survive and significantly more than a great deal to prosper. For example, if you wish to do missions for Intaki Syndicate, you better count on losing several ships per week to pirates that will gank you in missions, on gates or returning from missions. The only way to counter that is with more force from your corporation. This becomes a catch-22. To keep your members in 0.0 you need to be able to build ships and modules and everything else to keep them afloat. Yet more resource expenditure. Manufacturing ships is another area where massive, and i do mean ungodly massive, resources are needed. Tech 2 ships are becomming the norm in combat. You see lots of assault frigs, HACs and so on. Yet the blueprints for these ships are in the hands of probably less than two dozen players in Eve. Some of these players might have even temporarily left the game, holding the blueprints in case they come back to the game. What is more, I hear no more BPOs of these ships are being given out. This means that the smaller corporations have about as much chance of getting a tech 2 BP as they do of winning the lottery in real life. Only megacorps with 10 billion or more isk can afford to purchase these blueprints from the lottery winners. Seeding 0.0 is another example. I have tried to seed certain areas with market but its very difficult. Because even the pirate players can always use their alts, they simply log an alt, go to empire and get what they need. However, we can leave this asside for the moment and try to play off the laziness of players by giving them a local market. The problem is that most players in 0.0 have corporate BPOs to tech 1 stuff, and tech 2 stuff is, as we have seen, basically out of reach for the small to mid sized corp. This means that these players will be going to empire to buy their items anyway so they dont bother even checking regional markets in 0.0. I have seen merchandise sit there for weeks at a time without moving a single item. What is even more perplexing is that many alliances dont want a regional market because they feel that if they cant control who buys, they dont want anyone to buy. Strange since it hurts them at least as much as their enemies. It just seems that Eve is rewarding the long term players (not that there is anything wrong with that) but giving little chance to players that are new to the game and wish to start up to make a name for themselves. This doesnt mean I will give up of course. However, it is food for thought. Bounty system and research reform woul go a long way to improving this. If Eve is to continue to acquire new customers, they need to have an avenue for these customers to be able to impact the game, not merely take a back seat role to the same old corps. This is not to say that those corps shouldnt be rewarded; rather that there should be more of a chance for the newer corps to start up and get going doing something that impacts the game rather than just sitting in a system mining or ratting. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:15:00 - [2] Another bunch of self contradictory drivel - you have a rare talent. Piracy is easy and adds nothing to the game .. ... we need a bounty hunting reform. er? ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Kraythe	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:16:00 - [3] decides its best to simply ignore Avon from now on
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:23:00 - [4] Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 10:24:47 Just to add.. There is a really great burger van in my town - does superb burgers. Does the guy who runs it feel that he should be working for a 'well known fast-food burger chain'? No. Why not? Because he is happy to work for himself. He is happy to develop his own market. He is happy to earn enough to support his family. He has no interest in dominating the South American cattle market. I guess it all depends what you want out of life. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:26:00 - [5] Avon, as usual, you take the entire post, pull out a phrase or 2 and attack it. Then sit back and think you have defeated the whole post. This is called a "Straw Man" tactic in rhetoric and is considered completely invalid. I think Kraythe is right. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:26:00 - [6] Yes but Burger King doesn't declare war on him and ransom him for his hard earned money now do they... Sorry had to call ya out on that one :) -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Sybylle	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:26:00 - [7] Is Eve trying to push people into Megacorps? 1: yes if you want to get all the costly stuff and highter end ships/modules. 2: no if you want to have fun with friends (\_/) (O.o) (> <)=Oveur (proof) "Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period"
Joshua Foiritain	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:27:00 - [8] I dont see why people have to join a mega corp. Sure small corps cant own an outpost or Dread, but tbh; Theyre crappy money sinks anyway. Small Corps 4tw. ------------------ [WTT: Vigilant]
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:29:00 - [9] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Yes but Burger King doesn't declare war on him and ransom him for his hard earned money now do they... Sorry had to call ya out on that one :) Actually, a bloke from 'a different well know burger chain' is up in court (or has the case gone?) for tampering with the burger van's gas supply. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Kraythe	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:29:00 - [10] Originally by: Sybylle Is Eve trying to push people into Megacorps? 1: yes if you want to get all the costly stuff and highter end ships/modules. 2: no if you want to have fun with friends Doesnt that rather depend on your definition of fun? Sitting in an 0.5 and mining scordite is not my idea of fun. Neither is mission running. But in essence you seem to agree with me. Small corps can not make a significant impact on the Eve universe now, nor can they grow to become an impact. All the small corps I see are always scrounging for members, forming and disolving and so on. The only real players in the game are corps that have been around a year or more; usually ones that have been around since the start.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:30:00 - [11] Originally by: Derisor Avon, as usual, you take the entire post, pull out a phrase or 2 and attack it. Then sit back and think you have defeated the whole post. This is called a "Straw Man" tactic in rhetoric and is considered completely invalid. I think Kraythe is right. If the points I pick out are from your post it can't be a straw man .. but as straw man has been injected by you to the discussion, I call you out on a straw man straw man arguement. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:31:00 - [12] Where is the "Block" button on the forum? --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
hired goon	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:34:00 - [13] Originally by: Famine Aligher'ri Yes but Burger King doesn't declare war on him and ransom him for his hard earned money now do they... They don't? Then who the hell is hanging around outside my house in BK uniforms!? ------------ We come in peace. And tanks.
Trooper B99	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:37:00 - [14] Originally by: Kraythe Small corps can not make a significant impact on the Eve universe now, nor can they grow to become an impact. Patently false. Look at corps like NAGA, and even BDCI who started small and have grown to have a HUGE impact on the game, some while staying small. A corp can go far even with few members if they have the drive to do it. It depends on what you want out of the game and are prepared to put into it to get what you want out. Drive and ambition > numbers Wirykomi Team Racer - COLOSSUS Championships Year 106
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:38:00 - [15] Originally by: Derisor Where is the "Block" button on the forum? Instead of defending your points you choose to ignore those who argue against them? Well done. I can see why you post in a forum. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:40:00 - [16] Quote: Where is the "Block" button on the forum? No, no block button. Then no one would ever see any of my posts... ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:42:00 - [17] Originally by: Trooper B99 Originally by: Kraythe Small corps can not make a significant impact on the Eve universe now, nor can they grow to become an impact. Patently false. Look at corps like NAGA, and even BDCI who started small and have grown to have a HUGE impact on the game, some while staying small. A corp can go far even with few members if they have the drive to do it. It depends on what you want out of the game and are prepared to put into it to get what you want out. Drive and ambition > numbers I dont know about BDCI but I know NAGA started quite early in the life of the game possibly at release. And they are a megacorp. They have many sub-corps and they have ENORMOUS amounts of resources. Consider a guy that is new to the game and wishes to start a brand new corp. What chance doe he have of becomming a NAGA ? Little to none. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
DEVILSENIGMA	Posted - 2005.07.12 10:49:00 - [18] Originally by: Derisor Consider a guy that is new to the game and wishes to start a brand new corp. What chance doe he have of becomming a NAGA ? Little to none. It's good that it is that way. This is a MMRPOG, you play the game with other people. Hence you join other corporations. There is a single player aspect to this game but that will not give you as much as you get when you play it with other people. My Blog
Amy Arkanor	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:01:00 - [19] What is so great about going to 0.0 ?? without a proper local/regional market to resupply yourself, its virtually pointless to go to 0.0 I tried living in 0.0 and found out the following issues: 1) I spend countless of hours hauling fuel/ammo/ships 2) I spend countless of hourse scouting for anyone who wanted to travel to and from our spot in 0.0, because lets face it, its the only way to travel safely. 3) I had to wait on friends to come online to hunt npc/mine or do local complexes. 4) You need ammarr/gallente bs skillz to tank-mine and farm npc spawns. ( no ammo ) 5) Everytime i get killed i am back in empire and have to do the whole journey back, because local alliances reserve their stations for their folks ( which i dont disagree, but it doesnt really promote 0.0 as a great place to be ) 6) Refitting in space , needs a lot of work, why does this need to be so hard ? I just dont think there is a big enough incentive yet to go down and live in 0.0 yet, outposts are a good first step, but we are a long way from seeing one, and player controlled politics usually means you have to work hard on relationships to get any docking rights or even mining rights.. This is in my opinion the huge difference between 0.0 and empire, the fact you dont have to deal with politics to move about and organize events for your corp.
Famine Aligher'ri	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:03:00 - [20] Sorry but heh this is a PVP game. You wont go far without protection or knowing how to defend yourself. You can start a small corp and make good money. Many people do it. But the min you get notice for your deeds. Expect some kids to war declare you. It's just a fact. So that's pretty much telling you. If you don't hurry up and grow big soon. Kiss your ass goodbye. Just watch crime and punishement. See new corps asking if they should pay joemerc 200million isk or pay the ransom on the corp who randomly declared war on them. -Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri
Ruffio Sepico	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:19:00 - [21] Originally by: Derisor Consider a guy that is new to the game and wishes to start a brand new corp. What chance doe he have of becomming a NAGA ? Little to none. I dont think N.A.G.A have become what they have without hard work and some dedication to the game. You get back what you invest of time and effort, if you want to progress and develop you get there by work for it. Beside, not like N.A.G.A did suddenly appear out of the blue. Who knows a new corp founded today, in a couple of years they can be UP THERE as well. Home: http://www.hidden-agenda.co.uk HiD Kills: http://eve.hidden-agenda.co.uk/kill_list.php
Selim	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:29:00 - [22] I don't swing either way on this argument, but something just popped into my head. There arent that many ways to make it big as a corporation. You either need to have a massive t2 industry, become famous mercs/pvpers, or be damn good roleplayers. Maybe something else I forgot. Tell me, are there any corporations that are famous that only make t1 equipment (the only blueprints that are available for 99.9% of EVE)?
Uncle George	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:31:00 - [23] The only thing you are more or less guaranteed to sell in 0.0 is a giant secure container. Mainly because they are pain in the buttie to get into system. Strangely, there isn't a BPO for them, which is why they are so valuable. Most people in 0.0 are fairly self sufficient - tending to build what they need there or go back to empire for it (they have to travel back every now and then anyway to sell their other wares).
Masu'di	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:35:00 - [24] Originally by: Selim I don't swing either way on this argument, but something just popped into my head. There arent that many ways to make it big as a corporation. You either need to have a massive t2 industry, become famous mercs/pvpers, or be damn good roleplayers. Maybe something else I forgot. Tell me, are there any corporations that are famous that only make t1 equipment (the only blueprints that are available for 99.9% of EVE)? There's probably some small specialist corps out there that are well known within the right circles. I can think of Deep Space Services, for example. There's other exploration and bookmarking corporations out there, TAINS for example. Smaller corps can have an impact by providing unique services, that large corporations may often over look.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:39:00 - [25] Originally by: Ruffio Sepico Originally by: Derisor Consider a guy that is new to the game and wishes to start a brand new corp. What chance doe he have of becomming a NAGA ? Little to none. I dont think N.A.G.A have become what they have without hard work and some dedication to the game. You get back what you invest of time and effort, if you want to progress and develop you get there by work for it. Beside, not like N.A.G.A did suddenly appear out of the blue. Who knows a new corp founded today, in a couple of years they can be UP THERE as well. N.A.G.A. didn't start big either. It started out with just a few members too. It already was doing great before tech2 came in, and floated on a limited amount of members to achieve that. What they did was do soemthing original, use their smarts and bring alot of dedication to the table. And again, witht his thread, we see someone telling us how small corps have it so mch harder. Again, arguments about it being so much ahrder for them to aquire the resources crop up. That, is blatant bull****. If you need 1 million trit per member per week to support your ship replacements or to sell and buy bp's for the corp with, how does that make a large corp any different from a small one ? Sure, a small corp will take longer to buuild one BS, but it will lose less on average, and will need less to start with. Large groups have one advantage only: - better ability to concentrate manpower to be at the same place and time. That's all there's to it. They don't mine any faster, can't kill npc's any faster, and can't do agent missions any faster then anyone else in thsi game when you don't factor in the manpower logistic advantage. Now, there's a secondary advantage to manpower logistics. It's in the speed with which ou can attain tools to better yourself. And indeed, the last patch contained three major tools that this can be applied to. Frieghters, dreadnoughts and outposts will be built by large groups faster then by small ones. that will indeed give the large groups an edge in that they can use their tools at an earlier time then the small groups. But aside from that, what advantage is there really ? None. Poeple complaining that CCP wants everyone out in 0.0 are missing something too. 0.0 is a new frontier, somewhere where you can find stuff that can help you expand your corporation and it's abilities. Somewhere where you can carve out something of a home. But in 0.0, as opposed to empire, grouping does make that larger difference. In 0.0, manpower and resource logistics are some of the most essential parts of being succesfull. Yes, a small corp will thus struggle to get into 0.0. Tes, that is the natural way of things. Nothing that needs changing, and nothing that CAN be changed. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Feta Solamnia	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:41:00 - [26] hahahahehehhe. Do you people realize how many people make up naga? Originally by: Oveur I have access to all market data. Believe me, we have not reached anything close to deflation yet.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:54:00 - [27] Originally by: Feta Solamnia hahahahehehhe. Do you people realize how many people make up naga? Yes, now. I also realise that not too long ago, NAGA was essentially a handfull of people selling named tech1 loot they bought or hunted or themselves. Due to their value as merchandisers, they were able to get high standings to most of the 0.0 based player groups, allowing them to hunt in their space. What they did was the perfect example of advanced marketing in Eve. They put up clear and seperated sales channels (their own ingame chat channel op to any prospective buyer and their own comprehensive website that turned into an eve-wide benchmark for loot module values). What they did NOT do, is sell on the ingame market. This seperated them from the rest. And their ability to always have anything you needed or at least the first best alternative to it, combined with original, fast, and witty service made them the biggest brandname of Eve. All that time they were nothign more then a medium sized corp at most. When tech2 hit us, NAGA once more saw an opportunity for success and originality. So they started to get into tech2 themselves, and when confronted with the need for more cash and more bp's to get that leading "one stop shop" position in that market again they set up stepstone. That is when they got big in numbers, because all that producing (which they didn't do as much before then), needed people to do the logistics. When tech2 compenents became manufacturable, they jumped in yet again and grew the first large POS network, again needing more people to do yet more logistics. Now they are big, very big, and doing well, very well. Yet it all started with, and still largely rests on, the brandname they made for themselves selling NPC loot from the activities of a small corporation. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Noriath	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:04:00 - [28] I don't think there is anything wrong with making joining an alliance or megacorp worth peoples while, as long as 0.0 infrastructure and security as far as random acts of agression rather then full scale wars increases along with it... I mean I've always been bothered by the factt hat the NPC empires don't really apreciate my work unless I do it directly for their agents - what I hope for is to see Alliances that really resemble empires, and I think we're getting there...
Derisor	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:05:00 - [29] Originally by: DEVILSENIGMA Originally by: Derisor Consider a guy that is new to the game and wishes to start a brand new corp. What chance doe he have of becomming a NAGA ? Little to none. It's good that it is that way. This is a MMRPOG, you play the game with other people. Hence you join other corporations. There is a single player aspect to this game but that will not give you as much as you get when you play it with other people. People can play with other people without joining a megcorp. Perhaps some just want to have a small corp that is viable. We shouldnt have to condemn new players to be our waterboys. --------- The words "Exciting" and "Safe" are mutually exclusive; pick one.
Joe	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:05:00 - [30] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 12/07/2005 10:24:47 Just to add.. There is a really great burger van in my town - does superb burgers. Does the guy who runs it feel that he should be working for a 'well known fast-food burger chain'? No. Why not? He is happy to earn enough to support his family. He has no interest in dominating the South American cattle market. With the Introduction of Dreadnoughts and Outposts there are some seriously costly, time consuming options out there for the Larger corps with Organisation. there hasn't really been the option for any any industry at that scale before. Now the game finally allows Goals like 'dominate the South American cattle market'. Originally by: Derisor It just seems that Eve is rewarding the long term players (not that there is anything wrong with that) but giving little chance to players that are new to the game and wish to start up to make a name for themselves. I really don't like the idea of new players just headin out on their own thinking they can strike it rich, or starting up corps without any experience. Corporations in reallife are not started up over night, they have huge amounts of funding, and by definition aren't run by one dude doing it all. There is so much content in the game now that any new players should immediatly be jioning real corps (not npc) and learning how real corps behave and function 1st hand. learn how mining & production spreadsheets work, organised mass mining and hualing is organised, learn how Ventrill or teanspeak is used, and If you still want to CEO a corp, atleast form the new corp with a few players all in the same timezome as you, that youve mined/hunted with before. Eve is not a single player game, its all about corporations, Sure any new player can start a corp with the eventual goal to produce Dreads and Outposts, but why shouldn't older players allready organised be able to do it now? Oberon Tech II Sales.

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