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CCP over did Level 4 Mission Nerfs

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Miri Tirzan	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:38:00 - [1] Well the old Nerf Bat of Doom once again was pulled out and over used. Why do I say this. First, where there problems with level 4 missions as they were - yes. But most of the problems where not the missions but rather the fact that missiles, mainly torps were over powering at short range. CCP then proceeded to fix the missile problems in a good way. Then, without seeing what the impact would be to mission runners, nerf level 4 missions. Here are the problems as I see them. CCP said no shards for us and then put in dead space missions. Well it smells like a shard, looks like a shard, and acts like a shard.. so as far as I can tell, it is a shard. So, live up to your words and take them out. Go back to putting missions in real space like they were. Secondly, CCP made the missions harder because they were too easy for ravens with torps. Well, that would be ok, but since they already fixed the problem of people using the "I win" torps, it is just overkill to now make all the missions harder for everyone not using the "I win" torps when the torps are already fixed. Looks like the right hand and left hand at CCP were not talking. Third, the rewards for the harder missions and the mission drops where reduced. Now this was because the "whiners" were saying why would pirates appear inside of the Empires. I noticed that being in 1.0 sec systems did not stop player pirates from ganking players so why should NPCs be any different? This just appears to be CCP caving to the Whaaaaa they are not coming out to be killed by me so fix this or I will leave crowd. The truth about mission runners getting rich from doing level 4 missions was posted by Oveur in another thread. Before the patch there where less than 1000 players in the game with 1 billion or more ISK. There were a lot more doing mission running. The propaganda was that mission runners were making hugh ISK per hour when the reality was that they were making 8-10 million per hour, they were loosing ships, and they were having fun. CCP caved to the whine that "this is a PvP (combat) game" crowd and we need more targets! Give us more targets! This is CCP's game and they are free to do what they want with it. But it would be nice if for once they would ever consider gradual changes. The concept of make a change, evaulate the impact, make another correcting change seems beyond the scope of thier management style. So yes, everyone gets to adapt, most will give up on level 4 missions as they are not very profitable. Oh, and courier mission. The best nerf yet.. they just made them give level 3 missions mostly from your level 4 agent. So now you get to do a pile of level 3 missions to get to a level 4 mission, only to make it more exciting, every mission is though low sec space. So you dont get a good reward, they are still long and boring, and now you get the opertunity to get ganked. Yeah CCP... way to turn us back into miners. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Gerome Doutrande	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:41:00 - [2] i believe you mean "instance" instead of shard (which usually refers to several independent game worlds), right?
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:43:00 - [3] Level 4 missions were meant to be group affairs, go read back to when they were announced. They were too profitable and too easy. As to the billionaire thing - that was isk in the wallet, not assets. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Miri Tirzan	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:44:00 - [4] Originally by: Gerome Doutrande i believe you mean "instance" instead of shard (which usually refers to several independent game worlds), right? Well, it seems to me that a shard is CCPs implimentation of a shard. Only the mission runner can warp to the gate to enter the closed space. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:45:00 - [5] Originally by: Discorporation Originally by: Miri Tirzan Well, it seems to me that a shard is CCPs implimentation of a shard. Only the mission runner can warp to the gate to enter the closed space. Which is called an instance, not a shard And isn't even strictly true. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Discorporation	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:45:00 - [6] Originally by: Miri Tirzan Well, it seems to me that a shard is CCPs implimentation of a shard. Only the mission runner can warp to the gate to enter the closed space. Which is called an instance, not a shard [Come to Daddy]
Miri Tirzan	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:46:00 - [7] Originally by: Avon Level 4 missions were meant to be group affairs, go read back to when they were announced. They were too profitable and too easy. As to the billionaire thing - that was isk in the wallet, not assets. Before the patch they were more profitable than mining and less boring. Now they are less profitable than mining and not worth doing. As I said, they were over nerfed. svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
Gerome Doutrande	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:48:00 - [8] sounds like someone wants to be able to "warp to 100" more often and snipe a little.
Vilserx	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:50:00 - [9] Originally by: Avon Level 4 missions were meant to be group affairs, go read back to when they were announced. And now, recently, CCP have gone back on that and said they are designed soloable. Yet, the difficulty on some of these missions makes them unsoloable. --------------------------- VSX EVE Design
Larno	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:51:00 - [10] Hello. I would like to introduce you to the Amarr, Gallente, and Minmatards. They have ships too!!!!
Mako Raddick	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:54:00 - [11] I totally agree with this thread, as an lvl4 agent runner, i used to have fun and earn some isk, but i used to loose ships so i was always earning isk fromlvl4 agents and using it to replace ships lost doing the harder lvl4 agent missions. Now I cant do lvl4 agent missions due to the missile nerfs, i am in agreement that a torp shouldnt be able to catch and destroy a frigate, but this nerf is over teh top. I know a lot of lvl4 agent runners that are in the same position we have now gone to being POS owners and mining again as working for agents is a total waste of time.
Galk	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:55:00 - [12] Originally by: Avon Level 4 missions were meant to be group affairs, go read back to when they were announced. They were too profitable and too easy. That isn't true avon... a thread last week in the missions forum we had going a dev was telling us the exact reverse of what you just said... Something along the lines of level 4's were not meant to be for teams.... He 'did' say that... i was in shock to, considering they have made some missions imposable to solo for even highend well skilled players..... Team missions and there split rewards will be coming in kali were his words. Ill try and dig out the thread and edit. -------- "I have always depended on the kindness of strangers." 'A Streetcar Named Desire'
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:55:00 - [13] um level 5 mission agents were mant to be corp affairs level 4s were solo hard to 2-5 BS and more moderate - level 3s are meant to be solo in a BS. The damage from NPC missile hasnt been reduced in line with player reductions hence the higher toughness - i think explosive and kinetic resistance platings and modules will become more useful. Whats happened to the level 5 agents being brought in. ? Whats happened to mission bonsu rewards being goods items etc its all ISK now. Inflation will go up and goods will disappear off markets. Oh well the player bases collective actions show up in CCPs datamining of the statistics on the database of all player actions etc - these determine weightings of changes etc. So if you find something that is weak do more of it and it will be boosted
Bhaal	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:56:00 - [14] Quote: Minmatards You talking to me? ------------------------------------------------ Views expressed by this character in no way shape or form reflect the views of M. Corp as a whole.
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.12 11:57:00 - [15] in reply to galk "look for level V agents in some stations currently unaccessible for missions im guessing these will be the team ops CCP speak of." Please discuss the validity of implenmenting level 5 (V) agents before discussing changes to level 4
Lufio II	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:02:00 - [16] Originally by: Miri Tirzan Well, it seems to me that a shard is CCPs implimentation of a shard. Only the mission runner can warp to the gate to enter the closed space. This is completely wrong. The mission Acceleration gates can be seen on system Scanners. While it is true that only the mission holder has the bookmarks, those who are skilled in scanning can get to the acceleration gates as well. It is plainly a question of how much work one is willing to invest and if there's enough time to get there in time before the mission is completed/cancelled. Tho it looks like the missions are instanced (or to use your wording: sharded), they aren't. Those gates are visible and accessible by anyone in the vicinity who spends enough time getting there (which rarely anyone does as far as I know, but that has nothing to do with instancing). MSSI Forums Provider of Prorator Blockade Runner Transport Ships in Domain
Galk	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:04:00 - [17] Linkage Originaly posted by Zrakor..... Both of you have a point. Missions were too profitable due to the massive bounties on the high-end NPCs, but them being too easy is a non-issue as level 4 is not the end of mission difficulty (level 5s will be a step above level 4 and we will probably go higher than that eventually). I am very interested in feedback from fairly new players who just started doing level 4 missions and find them too hard after the patch. Level 4s are not supposed to be group missions, but of course a group mission is a very relative term as it totally depends on how powerful the player(s) doing the mission is/are. For some mission X may be impossible to do solo, for others it's easy. And please keep this discussion civil Ofcourse i made the point that because you striped the ability to solo these missions, you should have given options for teamplay bringing the balance so... I run missions with others, i do it just to help people, id make more mining veld tbh.. thats no balance -------- "I have always depended on the kindness of strangers." 'A Streetcar Named Desire'
sonofollo	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:06:00 - [18] some acceleration gates or solo players others can be used by teams of BS as long as they are all jumping within 30 seconds of each other Getting back to the level 5 agents that arent i nteh game yet im thinking they will be for dread - BS combo fleets that corps might be able to muster similr to the 5/10 and up deadspace complexes.
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:08:00 - [19] The missile changes ahd preciously little to do with missions. The mission changes had preciously little to do with missiles. They just came as seperate solution to seperate (but related) problems at the same time. Missions earned too much isk, in a Raven, in an Apoc, in a Dominix, in any BS that people used for doing them. So, mission difficulty got upped and the reward downed. What we have now is some of them being real badass challenges to any single player (and sometimes maybe even impossible to solo, altho people scream impossible far too soon), and some being very feasible to solo still. This was needed to stop the neverending ability to grind missions after mission without thinking. Now, you have to reject more of them, suggle more specific setups, call in a friend for every so many missions, etc. Difficulty is up, interactiveness of the content increased. Also, they earn less cash, and less rewards. That was needed to rebalance them with othe rempire professions. there will always be people soloing most pvp 4 missions without too much trouble. But they simply cannot be allowed to make three times what a specialised miner makes, so now they don't. The the missile changes. these were inspired by the fact that only missiles hadn't gotten teh beating of the tracking changes, and required far too little skillpoint investment to be competitive. Now, they need the same skills, and are about just as effective as turets in generally comparable situations. No more frig pwnage with torps, no more uselessness at long range. Missile were fixed, and the effect will turn out to be nothing then good. So, that clearly explains why the original poster should not whine. The one issue stands apart from the other, both were solved nicely and no nerf has been much overdone at all. The only thing that prompts these whines is that those that farmed lvl 4's on 'easy' mode using ravens got hit by two big changes at the same time. Well, suck it up, cause you we're benefitting from two big iombalances for over half a year. _______________________________________________ Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues.
Khonsu	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:10:00 - [20] Yes, it's funny to see how CCP stumble into the good old MMORPG pitfalls of over-nerfing. Those of us who've played multiple MMORPGS over the years know what I'm talking about. They should have known better, to be honest. The changes were announced in advance, people reacted, knowing this would one heck of an overnerf. But they had too much pride to admit they were about to mess up, and carried through with it. Very amateurish.
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:13:00 - [21] Quote: Level 4 agents The higher echelons of corporations are usually classified as level 4, meaning they have almost unlimited access to their corporations of factions resources - and are equally demanding on success from the people that seek their favor. Their missions usually require a group of pilots to solve within the given timeframe, but reward accordingly to all participants. However, to be accepted from them means you have to ... neutralize ... a fair amount of ... former business associates. Seems everybody has enemies in this world. Corporations just have more of them than others. These missions are not for little experienced pilots and should be done in groups. 'ave it ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Larno	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:15:00 - [22] Originally by: Bhaal Quote: Minmatards You talking to me? Typo ofc.
Galk	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:18:00 - [23] Edited by: Galk on 12/07/2005 12:23:01 Ave what avon,, i quote the words of the mission dev from last week.... Note the words 'last week' Sigh.... CCP clearly change their minds on somethings... they have in many ways admited they were wrong with there conseption of lv4's.... Something of which 'you' and many others having been lobbying about.... CCP they changed there minds.... quoting me a 6-7 month old discription doesn't exactly cut it... the words of the mission dev from last week just about anyone wil take over what you point out.... I guess you simpley have the i cannot lose factor... ill admit you were not probaly aware of what that dev posted last week.. but there no reason to make yourself look an idiot trying to prove your point.... You were wrong fair and simple... Sigh -------- "I have always depended on the kindness of strangers." 'A Streetcar Named Desire'
Deovina	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:19:00 - [24] Edited by: Deovina on 12/07/2005 12:20:07 You are right in one point. No veteran player is going to do agent missions atm (at least not in Empire). The reason for the massive whining we experience now is due to CCP slow reponse to the overpoweredness of lvl4 mission payout. Some people told them right away when Exodus was released but they took to long to react. Hence during these months players got used to easy income without risk. Right before the Cosmos patch we had lots of veteran and midlvl players grinding missions. The veteran players probably won't have much trouble to return to pre Exodus money making actions. It's the midlvl players which are spoiled by 6 months of easy agentmissions but they will adapt eventually. I'd say better have an ending with horror than a horror without end. (well probably doesn't translate very well into English).
MachZERO	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:19:00 - [25] I don't even know where to start... Rest assured that you are wrong on alot of points. I've no idea what you are on about with the whole "shard" bit. Dead space does not = shard. It just blows my mind that you would even bring that up. Missions being harder... Some are, and some are not. Try constructively asking players in eve that CAN run those missions how they do them SOLO. Most would be more than happy to boast about their T2 fitted Ships-o-Doom. Most take considerable pride in their setups and the time and effort they put into making the perfect setup for them. Learn from them and adapt it to your play style. Or, you can continue being ****ed off about nothing. Options... I don't understand why you insist that lvl 4 missions are the only reason to play eve. There is 0.0 space that is FULL of npc battleships and commander spawns so why not join an alliance or a corp with 0.0 access and take advantage of that oportunity. OR... Try your hand at complexes. Plenty of rats and loot to be found in them. Experience Eve for ALL that it's worth... And not just lvl 4 missions. He11, start a war even... In the end, if you are not happy with what you are currently doing in game, then try something else. Create a market in a region that has alot of mission runners but hardly any weapons/ships/modules/drones/etc... The possibilities in Eve are endless and you are cought up on lvl 4 missions. Change is good. :) --------------------------------------------- "Rang Rang" ---------------------------------------------
Admiral Pieg	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:22:00 - [26] shard does indeed mean a different server/game world. I believe the term came from ultima online where in the storyline the "world crystal" was shattered into several shards wich each had a world inside them. On topic, if you dont see the problem with players netting 8-10-20 million isk an hour completely risk free then im afraid you missed the clue train mate. ______________________ Pod from above.
Tenashi	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:22:00 - [27] Quote: Some level 4 mission bonus rewards were too high. They have been adjusted to be equal to the rewards of similar missions.
Sanaen Eydanwadh	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:25:00 - [28] Originally by: Deovina Edited by: Deovina on 12/07/2005 12:20:07 The reason for the massive whining we experience now is due to CCP slow reponse to the overpoweredness of lvl4 mission payout. Some people told them right away when Exodus was released but they took to long to react. Hence during these months players got used to easy income without risk. Right before the Cosmos patch we had lots of veteran and midlvl players grinding missions. The veteran players probably won't have much trouble to return to pre Exodus money making actions. It's the midlvl players which are spoiled by 6 months of easy agentmissions but they will adapt eventually. I'd say better have an ending with horror than a horror without end. (well probably doesn't translate very well into English). haaa I was about to post exactly the same comment (apart from the last sentence, which I'm still thinking about ;) ), so I'll just have to second this
Avon	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:27:00 - [29] Originally by: Galk Edited by: Galk on 12/07/2005 12:23:01 Ave what avon,, i quote the words of the mission dev from last week.... Note the words 'last week' Sigh.... Originally by: Avon Level 4 missions were meant to be group affairs, go read back to when they were announced. How does what the devs said last week have any bearing on what I said? I think you mis-read my post. ______________________________________________ Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay.
Khonsu	Posted - 2005.07.12 12:30:00 - [30] To those that say that 'Level 4s were way too easy and profitable': They should have upped difficulty OR lowered payouts, not both at the same time. Yes, now they're hard and challenging to do, but the rewards don't match the difficulty level.

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