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Scorpyn
The Providers
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
9
   |
Posted - 2013.02.02 10:37:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is a joke, right? |
Scorpyn
The Providers
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.02 22:45:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tsobai Hashimoto wrote:Scorpyn wrote:This is a joke, right? its free2play stuff, how it works honestly im not sure why people dont just use vent or TS3 anyways, can that run on the PS3? if not, there are ways around that too
Afaik you can't use TeamSpeak, Ventrilo and similar on the PS3.
Those with laptops (or another computer) close enough to the PS3 should be able to use TS3 or similar.
The problem I have with this is that I consider voice to be a core game mechanic in this type of game.
I can understand wanting to charge for stuff, but then don't pretend that the game is free.
Also, since there are also implants that are only available for aur, I'll be uninstalling the game.
If you want to charge for pay to win features you should at least TRY to make it subtle, like you do with the main game where you can buy isk with plex (which I also hate, if I hadn't started playing before that was allowed there is no way I'd have kept playing). |
Scorpyn
The Providers
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 01:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
El Cymech wrote:Scorpyn wrote:
I can understand wanting to charge for stuff, but then don't pretend that the game is free.
Also, since there are also implants that are only available for aur, I'll be uninstalling the game.
So you want 100% completely free everything.
I'm not going to lie and say that I wouldn't appreciate that, but while it would be nice, I'm sure most of us understand that it's not realistic for this type of game.
If you want to charge for stuff, go ahead. If you want to pretend that the game is free and then charge for core game mechanics and make it a pay to win game, go ahead without me. |
Scorpyn
The Providers
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
9
|
Posted - 2013.02.03 21:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Funless Saisima wrote:In game battle voice (Squad/Team) chat is free. UTV is only for corp chat and private rooms. My corp uses jabber primarily for chat and rarely use our private mumble channel. No biggie.
Ok. Not as bad as it may have seemed at first in that case.
Funless Saisima wrote:FWIW, the out of battle voice coms are not done by CCP. They use a 3rd party. They get charged, so you get charged.
This may be a valid reason from the book keeping point of view, but imo it's not a valid reason from the game mechanics point of view.
If you charge for this typ of stuff, fewer people will use it than if you don't charge for it, which will make it less useful for those who do pay for it. This is why I don't think you should make a separate optional charge for core game mechanics. |
Scorpyn
The Providers
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 20:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
Hienz Doofenshmirtz wrote:You do realise that When eve voice was introduced, we paid for it right, but that has been rolled into our subscription.
EVE uses Vivox for the Voice system for New eden, they pay for it, why wouldn't they pass on the cost of it to the consumer.
I still don't understand why it has to be a separate cost.
What makes you think CCP:s servers don't cost anything? |
Scorpyn
The Providers
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 20:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:ITTigerClawIK wrote:i have to agree, charging for voice comms with your own corp is a very bad decission, communication with your own corp IS essential and will be more so when DUST becomes part of sov warfare, i dont mind the whole Micro transaction stuff in DUSt but this is over the line if you ask me. I would hate for eve online players to pay for voice for another game though.
I'm not saying that it should be paid for by EVE Online.
I'm saying that it should be paid for by a part of the income from other (nonvital) items. |
Scorpyn
The Providers
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
11
|
Posted - 2013.02.05 22:22:00 -
[7] - Quote
Pyre leFay wrote:It is paid for by for non vital items as Corp and custom channel chat is a luxury.
It is more than likely UTVs will be sold on market for isk by people who have paid Aur for them in the future. Then with both avenues available, there is no way to complain about their availability. Only complaints about what the players deem their worth is in isk.
Selling them for isk doesn't fix the problem. It may move it around a bit but it doesn't fix it since the real issue isn't about the money. The real issue is about availability. |
Scorpyn
The Providers
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.09 02:46:00 -
[8] - Quote
Since people don't seem to agree on my opinion on how payment in Dust514 (or games in general) should work, I suppose I'll have to explain it.
For commercial games, I prefer a one time fee. However, games that keep evolving deserve more than a one time income, and this is especially true for mmo:s where you have to rely on company provided servers to be able to play.
In the case of EVE Online, and probably in the case of Dust514 as well, running a private server would be completely pointless as it would remove some of the major components of the game.
So, in these cases, there are 2 payment methods that I see no problem with :
1. A subscription.
2. Free to play with microtransactions for items that don't affect the gameplay at all. This includes items that simply make you more stealthy by being darker etc.
So, why am I playing EVE Online when it obviously doesn't follow my own rules?
Well, apart from it actually being one of the main reasons for me to quit more than once, it's because I got hooked while CCP was actually trying to do something about RMT.
Or at least some of them were trying to do something about it, I recall a blog by Abraxas about why you shouldn't buy isk for rl money, which was immediately followed by lots of comments about how CCP allowed buying isk for gtc, which in their opinion made the whole argument wrong.
It saddens me very much that EVE Online still follows the RMT path, and rather than slowing it down it appears that CCP wants it to keep increasing.
We'll see if I'll be able to see beyond the RMT in EVE enough to enjoy the game this time, but I do know that I do NOT intend to start playing any other game that goes down the pay to win path.
eddie valvetino wrote:Scorpyn wrote:This is a joke, right? no it's for real but has no real impact as you can still hear what is being said and squad and team coms work without it so it's just like eve, which really has no voice and you pay for your TS3 servers. Just cos someone in your corp or allaince is paying,
The "you can still hear what is being said" part is not a solution to the "nobody else has the item you need to talk so why should I get it" problem.
TS3 is free if you run it on your own server, but I understand why that might be a problem for small corps/alliances that don't have any member who can be bothered to run it. |
Scorpyn
The Providers
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 10:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
eddie valvetino wrote:Scorpyn wrote:TS3 is free if you run it on your own server, but I understand why that might be a problem for small corps/alliances that don't have any member who can be bothered to run it. and the hardware to run the TS server is free? Servers just appear magically with no cost attached to them? There is no such thing as a free lunch, as I said... you may not be paying for it, but someone is.
I meant cases where someone already has a server and runs TS3 in addition to other stuff.
Henry Haphorn wrote:@Scorpyn
How many people you know actually own and run their own servers with TS for free? Compare that to the number of players that don't and usually have to pay money for the service. I don't know exactly how TS servers operate, but I wager that there is a cost involved somewhere down the line.
I don't know how many run a TS3 server, I don't know how many that don't, and I don't know how many that would do it if asked.
The problem with running your own TS3 server is that the non-profit license only allows 512 slots, which is an issue for large organizations where you may have more than that online at the same time. This could probably be solved by running mumble instead. |
Scorpyn
The Providers
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.10 19:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Henry Haphorn wrote:@Scorpyn
Yeah, that is going to be a problem when you have to run a fleet that is about 1,500 players strong.
Putting 1500 ppl in the same channel will also need a fairly high upstream bandwidth, which home users typically don't have. |
Scorpyn
The Providers
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.11 20:03:00 -
[11] - Quote
Erikka Longstick Andven wrote: i delivered game server for steam and the us army between 2000 thru 2010. and when i say you couldn't buy 1 unless you got 1500 to 4500 usd for just the chassis not counting hard drives, memory, power supplies and someone to set up test trouble shot them, oh almost forgot. racks to hold the servers cooling and for someone to come in daily to monitor and preform maint. 1 of my last deliveries was for a small business 30 employees, 8 servers for everyday operations ,backups and web. setup and monitoring 200,450.00 usd for 2 year a very basis set up. and one of the reasons for uvt is to for eve to dust player comm so a dust player can call in orbital bombardment. oh why play if you just going to be the jack azz who doesn't do anything to help just cause problems for the people who play objectives. i guess you are one of the medic who run around not healing people too. i bet you find that fun too. please do us all a favor(eve and dsust514) take a long walk off a short cliff. have a nice day 
What are you trying to say?  |
Scorpyn
The Providers
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.15 07:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Scorpyn wrote:Erikka Longstick Andven wrote: i delivered game server for steam and the us army between 2000 thru 2010. and when i say you couldn't buy 1 unless you got 1500 to 4500 usd for just the chassis not counting hard drives, memory, power supplies and someone to set up test trouble shot them, oh almost forgot. racks to hold the servers cooling and for someone to come in daily to monitor and preform maint. 1 of my last deliveries was for a small business 30 employees, 8 servers for everyday operations ,backups and web. setup and monitoring 200,450.00 usd for 2 year a very basis set up. and one of the reasons for uvt is to for eve to dust player comm so a dust player can call in orbital bombardment. oh why play if you just going to be the jack azz who doesn't do anything to help just cause problems for the people who play objectives. i guess you are one of the medic who run around not healing people too. i bet you find that fun too. please do us all a favor(eve and dsust514) take a long walk off a short cliff. have a nice day What are you trying to say? That you as a person trying to own thier very own voice server (regardless of software) is well out of the budget of most people earn a year.
I can run it just fine on a mini-itx board. No need for a rack server. |
Scorpyn
The Providers
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 00:48:00 -
[13] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Scorpyn wrote:Nova Fox wrote:Scorpyn wrote:Erikka Longstick Andven wrote: i delivered game server for steam and the us army between 2000 thru 2010. and when i say you couldn't buy 1 unless you got 1500 to 4500 usd for just the chassis not counting hard drives, memory, power supplies and someone to set up test trouble shot them, oh almost forgot. racks to hold the servers cooling and for someone to come in daily to monitor and preform maint. 1 of my last deliveries was for a small business 30 employees, 8 servers for everyday operations ,backups and web. setup and monitoring 200,450.00 usd for 2 year a very basis set up. and one of the reasons for uvt is to for eve to dust player comm so a dust player can call in orbital bombardment. oh why play if you just going to be the jack azz who doesn't do anything to help just cause problems for the people who play objectives. i guess you are one of the medic who run around not healing people too. i bet you find that fun too. please do us all a favor(eve and dsust514) take a long walk off a short cliff. have a nice day What are you trying to say? That you as a person trying to own thier very own voice server (regardless of software) is well out of the budget of most people earn a year. I can run it just fine on a mini-itx board. No need for a rack server. I am going to apologize for sounding like a real IT person would sound like. You're stupid and a liar. Don't believe me? Try this on for size. Open your favorite media player that allows multiple instances. Now have it play your favorite song and have it on repeat. Continue to open each one and playing that song and repeating said steps. Lets see if you can barely break 500 clients. Oh btw have the noise uploaded to a second computer over the internet in real time.
Because decoding and playing a bunch of 320 kbit/s mp3:s is exactly like forwarding 50 kbit/s speex.
Although I do admit that I don't have the upstream bandwidth required for that either, unless it's in a situation where multicast is possible (50 * 500 = 25000 ie 25 mbit/s and I only have 10 upstream unless I pay more).
The problem is that we're talking about different things. As long as the corp/alliance is small enough, you won't have 500 ppl in the same channel. For many in EVE, the voice server requirements are much lower than what would be required to put 500 ppl in the same channel. |
Scorpyn
The Providers
Rebel Alliance of New Eden
12
|
Posted - 2013.02.17 11:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:The issue is with voice servers is that the information MUST be received in order and thanks to the internet methods, there are quite often times packets get lost and dropped so the quality of service has to be raised up significantly. This is why splitting voice over channels is considerably a silly idea. It be awful it the first half of 'for' winds up in and overlaps into first part of the word 'muck'.
Overall the entire costs is very prohibitive but leasing lines out is a way to recoup it or licencing though game developers the way C3 does.
This isn't the case for websites or even downloads or you tube videos even.
I believe you misunderstood how it was intended to work.
You have a channel with 500 ppl in it. 250 are connected to one server, 250 to another.
When someone talks, the server he/she is talking in sends the stream to the other 249 ppl on the same server and to the other server, so there'll be 250 outgoing streams instead of 499.
The other server then redistributes it to its clients, but since the data has to travel further there will be added latency and (as you pointed out) a higher risk of dropped packages and out of sync packages.
The out of sync packages will have to be treated with added delay before playing the stream or by dropping them if the delay is too big.
Another way of dealing with it may be to combine streams (when several ppl talk at the same time), but that'd increase the cpu usage and latency, and I'm not sure if it's actually doable without increasing the bitrate as well, so it may not be a good idea. |
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