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Insane Violence
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Posted - 2005.07.12 17:30:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Insane Violence on 12/07/2005 17:30:39
I recently got a vagabond but have not ran into a sacrilege in a 1v1 fight yet and am a little worried about it if i do cause corp mates been telling me that basically my vagabond would get owned. In your opinion would sacrilege easily destroy a vagabond or would it be a fair fight (50/50). |
MineallMine
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Posted - 2005.07.12 17:58:00 -
[2]
Edited by: MineallMine on 12/07/2005 17:59:03
5x 220 II
med Nos
AB II
Tracking Disruptor
2 x Cap Rechargers
Med Rep II
Kin Hardener
Exp Hardener
2 x Gyro 2 (or a nano)
and don't forget your drones
edit: and Plasma Ammo
You'll be 50-50 with that one. If you want to tackle you can switch out a cap recahrger.
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pardux
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Posted - 2005.07.12 17:59:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: MineallMine
5x 220 II
med Nos
AB II
Tracking Disruptor
2 x Cap Rechargers
Med Rep II
Kin Hardener
Exp Hardener
2 x Gyro 2 (or a nano)
and don't forget your drones
You'll be 50-50 with that one. If you want to tackle you can switch out a cap recahrger.
no.
5x gyro II in lows and med shield booster+large shield extender tank 4tw
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.07.12 18:01:00 -
[4]
A nos sac would just eat your cap while easilly tanking you and then slowly kill you with heavy missiles.
Doubt a vaga could kill one 1v1.
jagerbomb part 2 now out |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2005.07.12 18:02:00 -
[5]
Yeah, to beat a Sacrilege (many of them nowadays are in Suckrilege configuration) you have to overwhelm it with damage really fast. If you let it live and drain you, you won't be able to run your tank for very long at all, so a gank setup is your best bet.
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Selim
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Posted - 2005.07.12 18:59:00 -
[6]
It could win, but it would be hard, as said you'd need to do a gank setup.
It would be easier if autocannons actually didnt use cap. So much for the no-cap weapons 
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deathfighter
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Posted - 2005.07.12 19:43:00 -
[7]
?U are forgeting vagabond's strength. how about u can easily stay outside his nos range and pownd him even with 220mm II. u can engage at 15km with those and a sacrilage isn't a small target. an ab II can bring u to 1000 with little efort while keping dmg at max. sacrilage don't stand a chance. 20km scrambler and there goes your sacri. not to mention using 650 II. u can come up with a setup that can easily orbit at 17km and pownd him real quick while he's noses are dry. Vaga is the most creative ship on 1v1 i think it can take the scrilage with a variety of setups.
Even if the sacrilage is in close combat tank vaga will win. for a long range sacrilage vaga will own him.
i would fight a vaga any day in my vagabond especialy now that hac is at lvl5 (waited some time but all worth is baby)
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fairimear
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Posted - 2005.07.12 20:03:00 -
[8]
personaly i would go suck it back.
if u can out caps drain sac's like all amarr ships they are dead.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world Domination.
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2005.07.12 20:48:00 -
[9]
My Sacrilege is designed to be sustainable without having the nosfers locked on - this is so that if it faces a BS with 2 heavy nos, it can counter with its own and still function. You'd really have to out-suck it to do that, and I don't think a Vagabond with four nos and two guns would be that effective.
Damage is the way to go.
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MineallMine
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Posted - 2005.07.12 21:02:00 -
[10]
how much/how long could you rep without the Noses.
Would 650s or 720s be able to break through your tank?
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2005.07.12 21:22:00 -
[11]
I can repair indefinitely using my ship's one medium tech II rep, with 76% EM, 88% Exp, 77.5% Therm, 77.4% Kin resists. 650s and 720s have a hard time breaking the tank, and if I'm moving laterally they simply can't.
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Avalon Beholder
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Posted - 2005.07.12 21:26:00 -
[12]
a HAC cannot beat a properly fitted Sacrilege.
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deathfighter
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Posted - 2005.07.12 22:06:00 -
[13]
I am very sure that a sacrilage can tank to hell but no way it can tank for a long time to a 5 x 720 II (with 3-4 gyros atached and a lvl 4-5 hac skill). this damage will screw his tank. not sure how fast though. we are talking here about a sacrilage not being good for anything else but tank. wich is usualy a bad idea. i would take any sacrilage any day in 1v1 if i knew he was alone.
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DrunkenOne
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Posted - 2005.07.12 22:11:00 -
[14]
Originally by: deathfighter
I am very sure that a sacrilage can tank to hell but no way it can tank for a long time to a 5 x 720 II (with 3-4 gyros atached and a lvl 4-5 hac skill). this damage will screw his tank. not sure how fast though. we are talking here about a sacrilage not being good for anything else but tank. wich is usualy a bad idea. i would take any sacrilage any day in 1v1 if i knew he was alone.
Arty have pretty crap DoT
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Dylan
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Posted - 2005.07.12 22:12:00 -
[15]
with a good pilot a vagabond could win, if ur using 650mm II and get outta nos range and just warp distrupt him you will be fine... just hit till he dies or get out if u cant break his tank, its all range...
If Jack helped you off a horse, would you help Jack off a horse?!?!?! o.0 |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2005.07.12 22:29:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 12/07/2005 22:31:28
Quote:
I am very sure that a sacrilage can tank to hell but no way it can tank for a long time to a 5 x 720 II (with 3-4 gyros atached and a lvl 4-5 hac skill). this damage will screw his tank. not sure how fast though. we are talking here about a sacrilage not being good for anything else but tank. wich is usualy a bad idea. i would take any sacrilage any day in 1v1 if i knew he was alone.
I think you're overestimating the damage output of artillery. Sure, they do nice damage against a target that's standing still and letting you pound it - but two nights ago I was doing setup duels with a corpmate flying his Muninn, I was flying my Zealot - my ship only has one medium tech II repairer, no other tanking modules.
I was able to tank the Muninn's damage just by angling. Sideways movement renders artillery pretty worthless, with easily half the damage going down the drain. If a Zealot with a big thermal hole in its resistances can tank 5x 720mm II used by a guy with 7 million in gunnery and HAC 5, and is equipped with two damage mods, then the Sacrilege can do it without so much as breaking a sweat.
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El Yatta
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Posted - 2005.07.12 22:45:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Avalon Beholder
a HAC cannot beat a properly fitted Sacrilege.
Assuming you mean a vamp-set sacrelidge, surely an ishtar could? An ishtar fitted with 3 med/2 small nos, 1 med rep (which I beleive fits) is slowly draining cap from the sac. even with 3 of its med nos on you, and 14 heavy drones (eventually t2, too), is way better than 3 heavy launchers. Slap on an explosive hardener, and the sac must go down, I would have thought.
---:::---
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deathfighter
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Posted - 2005.07.12 23:04:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu
Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 12/07/2005 22:31:28
Quote:
I am very sure that a sacrilage can tank to hell but no way it can tank for a long time to a 5 x 720 II (with 3-4 gyros atached and a lvl 4-5 hac skill). this damage will screw his tank. not sure how fast though. we are talking here about a sacrilage not being good for anything else but tank. wich is usualy a bad idea. i would take any sacrilage any day in 1v1 if i knew he was alone.
I think you're overestimating the damage output of artillery. Sure, they do nice damage against a target that's standing still and letting you pound it - but two nights ago I was doing setup duels with a corpmate flying his Muninn, I was flying my Zealot - my ship only has one medium tech II repairer, no other tanking modules.
I was able to tank the Muninn's damage just by angling. Sideways movement renders artillery pretty worthless, with easily half the damage going down the drain. If a Zealot with a big thermal hole in its resistances can tank 5x 720mm II used by a guy with 7 million in gunnery and HAC 5, and is equipped with two damage mods, then the Sacrilege can do it without so much as breaking a sweat.
seriosly i don't belife u can tank a munin who gets tracking bonus with a zealot and just a med II just no way. and there's no way 1/2 shots will go waisted and no way if u don't have a 1600 plate . 2000 armor hp's are nothing unless he was shoting fusion. but munin doesn;t miss that much with the tracking bonus. not to mention wrecking hits 1000+ i get very very often.
sorry for moving from vaga and sacri to munin and zealot. yea i know that 720 II have lower dot than 425 II and other med high end guns but still do a lot of damage to break a med take. Death-
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2005.07.12 23:23:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Istvaan Shogaatsu on 12/07/2005 23:29:21
Ask Uuve Savisaalo, he's the one with the Muninn. I'm telling you though, just moving towards him diagonally made half his shots miss. We even started at 50km to make the match fair.
Also, tracking bonuses aren't that special with artillery. Arty has practically nothing when it comes to tracking, and 20% more of practically nothing is still practically nothing. They only begin to shine with weapons that have a lot of base tracking to work with, i.e. the autocannon.
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Liam Fremen
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Posted - 2005.07.12 23:24:00 -
[20]
just for talk, is a bit off topic but u sayed hac can't break the sacrilege tank... i just do a few math:
Ur resistance
77.5% Therm, 77.4% Kin
My deimos actualy do 600dps with ion, without tank, with a light tank (repper and adaptive or active hardener) about 480 (i miss hac 5 btw :D)
with 480 is 158,48 dps vs ur resist...
obviously deimos is a bit in trouble with cap, so u will suck me dry in no time, but i think u can't repair 158 dps :D
i repeat, just for answer the "hac can't beat sacrilege" ^_^
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Istvaan Shogaatsu
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Posted - 2005.07.12 23:34:00 -
[21]
Yeah, gank Deimos can beat a Suckrilege. Any gank ship can. It's the ones that need a bit more time to kill, that really suffer against 3 nosfers.
A tank Deimos on the other hand will die to it, since most Deimos pilots are gonna have their rep already running when they start to attack. That just helps kill your cap faster.
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deathfighter
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Posted - 2005.07.12 23:59:00 -
[22]
ok i went ahead and did some math:
a vaga with 5 180 II or similar has a acuracy falloff of 14 km and optimal of 1.6km with phased plasma. u can fit with 5 gyro II and a 10mm ab + 20k scrambler + painter.
now vagabond can do (180mm II) 5 guns X 4.3 x 20(phased plasma) / 1.1 (rof) = 390.91 dps
I am sure that 220 II and 425 II have much higher dps but taking the worst in consideration.
now you have 77.5 thermal and 77.4 kinetic so let's supose 22% of the damage vagabond is doing makes real dmg. 390.91 * .22 = 86 real dps
in a sacrilage u are able to repait 320hp/12 sec with skills make that 9 sec (med armor II) so efctive repair is 320/9 = 35.56hp/sec.
diference is 86 - 35.56 = 50.46 dps so your 1500 whatever armor hp's u are going to have, is going to die in about 1500 / 50 = 30 sec. make it 50 - 60 due barely scratches and not good hits. Not even need to reload. :)
correct me if the math is wrong plz.
now a sacrilage with 3 noses is sucking 108 energy every 6 sec so so 540 in 30 sec. a vagabond with the above setup will have a nos of it's own and reduce that to 360 energy in 30 sec. a vaga can still survive and the ab don't spent that much cap. so either way u take it a vaga will win a suckrilage with a close range setup.
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Avalon Beholder
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Posted - 2005.07.17 15:07:00 -
[23]
PLEASE EVEMAIL ME INGAME IF YOU WANT A HAC 1v1, me in a Sacrilege, for 500m isk.
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deathfighter
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Posted - 2005.07.17 20:25:00 -
[24]
lol 500 mil that's 7 times the cost of a vaga. u must be a very high roller. :)
but yea i redid my calc again and i really think i can take a sucrilage with a acbond or better say i am willing to lose my ship to find out in a friendly fight. It is far harder to break a tank with 4 hareners and 1 repair than 2 reps and 1 hardener imao. doing only 12% of your dmg output to an enemy is very discouraging. Death-
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Avalon Beholder
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Posted - 2005.07.17 23:33:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Avalon Beholder on 17/07/2005 23:33:59
Originally by: Avalon Beholder
PLEASE EVEMAIL ME INGAME IF YOU WANT A HAC 1v1, me in a Sacrilege, for 500m isk.
bump for this.
Anyone who claims any HAC can beat (and I mean beat not draw) a Sacrilege in a 1v1 put your money where your mouth is.
I would accept lower ISK bets (down to 100m) but would rather 500,
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Born Warrior
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Posted - 2005.07.18 01:00:00 -
[26]
What setup would be better for the sacrilege tank, 1 t2 med armor repairer and 3/4 hardners, or 2 t2 armor repairers with 2 hardners ? |
hir0
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Posted - 2005.08.06 02:50:00 -
[27]
Edited by: hir0 on 06/08/2005 02:52:00
Well I can honestly say that in my Suckrelige setup (slightly modified from standard) the only HAC I fear is the Ishtar or another Sac pilot with better gear/skills. The Sac can soak up the damage of a gank Deimos long enough to drain the cap out of it as long as it stays outside 7km, which isnt hard. You will still take hits, but nothing your tank cant deal with. After 30-40 seconds the Deimos will be dry, particularly as they are invariably MWD ships which nerfs the cap even further. Ah you cry, but the Deimos has drones! Yes it does, and you can tank a full flight of medium drones with one med repper running with plenty to spare. The only chance for a Deimos (and it does have one) is pure damage, all mag stab IIs and pray you can bring him down in under 30secs.
Similarly with the Vaga, keeping a Vagabond from closing you down isnt difficult either. Artillery misses most of the time, wrecking shots be damned. Autos do hit out to 7-9km but not heavy enough to break the tank in time. The Sacrilege resistances are designed (in theory) around countering Minmatar ships, explosive and kinetic are both well defended against. This leaves thermal to be the only damage type worth using. A Vagabond imho should use an MWD and stay the hell out of web/nos range, because once its into that deadly embrace its pretty much over.
The DoT of the Sac is admittedly absolutely horrible without compromising the tank (and then you should have bought a Zealot) but when the opponent's cap is dead you have all the time in the world to slowly pick at their tank. It might be death by a thousand cuts, but its still death. The only HAC that I cant figure out a way around is the Ishtar; the drones tear up the tank faster than the reps can keep up, and they tend to run a nos counterbalance of their own. I'd have a care before challenging some Ishtar pilots to hundred-million bets in a Sacrilege.
Phew.
~hir0
"We must not allow ourselfs to be ****ed in our own lands"
-- FA, anon |
deathfighter
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Posted - 2005.08.06 04:58:00 -
[28]
Originally by: hir0
Edited by: hir0 on 06/08/2005 02:52:00
Similarly with the Vaga,... Autos do hit out to 7-9km but not heavy enough to break the tank in time.
~hir0
7-9 km on an ac vaga?? you have no idea!! it's 14 fallout and whatever optimal so ...
Death-
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Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.08.06 05:01:00 -
[29]
Jam it...
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here |
Dura'Lorth
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Posted - 2005.08.06 05:23:00 -
[30]
i think if you realy need a counter would be to use a Cerb. As missiles do not use cap, your gona be screwed pretty bad
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Stormfront
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Posted - 2005.08.06 05:27:00 -
[31]
Can a Cerb spit out high enough DOT?
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Cary Grant
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Posted - 2005.08.06 11:40:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Dura'Lorth
i think if you realy need a counter would be to use a Cerb. As missiles do not use cap, your gona be screwed pretty bad
Ain't NO missile boat gonna break my Sacrilege, not any 1 on 1 anyways. Other Sacrilege pilots please correct me if i am wrong. And I agree with Hir0, and even then it comes down to SP if i am up against an Ishtar or Zealot pilot.
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Na'Axin
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Posted - 2005.08.06 11:52:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Na''Axin on 06/08/2005 11:52:06
well raven setup for gank MIGHT break it's tank but a cerberus, no ffing way
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.08.06 12:04:00 -
[34]
Well, i had a single sacrilege vs vagabond fight. Agreed 1v1, which i won by a slight margin. We landed 15k from eachother, the Vaga approached me and i approached him, webbed him and started nossing while taking pretty heavy fire. He was armor tanked btw. I was at about 30-40% armor and he at 20% shield when all of a sudden i stopped taking damage. He died shortly after, didnt have an explosive hardner if i recall correctly.
But yea, it was VERY close. Choice of damage type etc can make the difference.
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Rexy
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Posted - 2005.08.06 13:04:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Rexy on 06/08/2005 13:05:47
projectile guns still need cap. if nossed dry you can still get some shots of but it'll be way less if you have to keep activating those guns manually.
i wonder why people armor tank such a ship though, so many low slots are wasted on what can only be called a mediocre tank(bar vs lasers).
edit: done some extensive testing with a gankvaga vs sacrelidge. it doesnt stand a chance. altough going for high resist (85% accross the board) and one repper works better then using 2 reppers and poorer resists. with the higher resist you actually get to cycle the repper 
All i want for cristmas is a typhoon with launcher rof bonus :) |
Grimpak
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Posted - 2005.08.06 13:36:00 -
[36]
Originally by: deathfighter
ok i went ahead and did some math:
a vaga with 5 180 II or similar has a acuracy falloff of 14 km and optimal of 1.6km with phased plasma. u can fit with 5 gyro II and a 10mm ab + 20k scrambler + painter.
now vagabond can do (180mm II) 5 guns X 4.3 x 20(phased plasma) / 1.1 (rof) = 390.91 dps
I am sure that 220 II and 425 II have much higher dps but taking the worst in consideration.
correct me if the math is wrong plz.
In a few moments Weirda will come with calculations WHY the 425AC is not the highest damging cruiser-sized AC.
PS: in comparing the 3 size classes of the med AC's take into consideration how much time you must spending in reloads, specially in the 425mm AC. i'm no math guy, but i'm pretty damn sure that the 220mm AC has a higher DOT than the 425, wich suffer of a too small clip size.
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Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
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Rexy
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Posted - 2005.08.06 13:39:00 -
[37]
the Dot is pretty even taken into account the reloading time. but 220's rarely have to reload before the fight is over. making them better then 425's.if 220's have to reload the dot's about even.
425's might be better with a better ammo clip indeed. but the damage difference between 220/425's still to small to even bother fitting them. they track poorer, and are a lot harder to fit.
All i want for cristmas is a typhoon with launcher rof bonus :) |
Lintaka
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Posted - 2005.08.06 14:16:00 -
[38]
Well iv read that all the HAC's have a spersific perpose...
So would the Sacralige be the anti HAC ship.. The HAC killer?
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2005.08.06 14:55:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Lintaka
Well iv read that all the HAC's have a spersific perpose...
So would the Sacralige be the anti HAC ship.. The HAC killer?
no, super-heavy tackler
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Fragm's Oversized Ego Cannon barely scratches the forums, inflicting omgnoonecares damage
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fairimear
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Posted - 2005.08.06 15:06:00 -
[40]
the ishtar is a good option to beat sac's.
can out nost it and now with t2 drones as serious dammag potential.
wel still having 5lows and 5 meds for locking down and tanking.
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world Domination.
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.08.06 15:42:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Weirda on 06/08/2005 15:45:18
Originally by: Dylan
with a good pilot a vagabond could win, if ur using 650mm II and get outta nos range and just warp distrupt him you will be fine... just hit till he dies or get out if u cant break his tank, its all range...
this is very true. but you don't need 650s to do it. at 15km (outside of his nos range - and suckrelidge don't deal much damage) - you could be dealing far more falloff damage from 220s (falloff bonus on vaga is very helpful...) 
likely he would still just tank you unless you had 5x damage mod - since you wouldn't be getting the best hits in falloff, but it is very easy to stay out of sac nos range and still within disruptor range with something as agile as a vagabond. 
Originally by: Grimpack
In a few moments Weirda will come with calculations WHY the 425AC is not the highest damging cruiser-sized AC.
no math. vulcan is just cooler!!
tbh though 425s just aren't worth the extra grid for their poor (2-4%) boost over 220... especially the flexibility that fitting 5x220mm give you... 
--
Thread Killer
(attempting to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1)
<END TRANSMISSION> |
Cary Grant
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Posted - 2005.08.06 17:16:00 -
[42]
Na'Axin, that's a damned fine siggy you got there M8!
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