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Assault Frigate: Tank or Gank?

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Finix Jaeger	Posted - 2005.07.13 12:25:00 - [1] I've tried both and had success with both, but what is the community's point of view on this? Some of the AF's are better than tanking than others (read:Wolf has poor armor res but good armor slots). Retribution can tank alot, but what happens if you put it in gank mode? I want opinions regarding which way in your opinion is best. Tank or Gank? ------------------------- Grand Agitator Rabid defender of the Homeworld voice
Weco	Posted - 2005.07.13 12:32:00 - [2] I use my Harpy as frigate killer in fleets, hence i have no tank what so ever on it, just damage and range. Works pretty good imo, ceptors and t1 friggs dies in seconds, and when i get targeted i just warp out and come back in again. In smaller frigg/cruiser gangs i put a t2 shieldbooster on it, i dont wanna go 1on1 with other AFs without a SB. For me I prefer gank over tank anytime, but thats just me ----------------------------------- What he said?
Lizanne	Posted - 2005.07.13 12:38:00 - [3] I prefer to be in between, gank and tank modules...
MrRookie	Posted - 2005.07.13 12:41:00 - [4] The Retribution is very good at both. Actualy its the two only things it can do due to its lack of meds. When I used the retri for lvl 3 missions I used gank mode for easy missions and tank for hard ones. Its no point at use a max gank setup when facing larger ships as you have to outlast them, and with a gank setup you wont tank them long enough to kill them most likely. Imo atleast. But what I use as a general rule, ships with lots of dmg bonuses = most suited for gank _____________________________________________ \o/ I got a siggy... WTB 3x Medium Modulated Pulse Energy Beams http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=139877
zoturi	Posted - 2005.07.13 12:42:00 - [5] retribution, 5x medium pulses ab/web/scrambler 5x heatsinks II Hmm
Soros	Posted - 2005.07.13 12:45:00 - [6] Originally by: zoturi retribution, 5x medium pulses ab/web/scrambler 5x heatsinks II Hmm 4x medium pulse, I will check on fitting req for 5x heat sinks II's -= Soros =- = Firmux Ixion =
xenorx	Posted - 2005.07.13 12:48:00 - [7] Originally by: zoturi retribution, 5x medium pulses ab/web/scrambler 5x heatsinks II Hmm would be great but there is not enough cpu. You can get 2 heatsinks possibly three max. Im at work atm but I have tried and know it comes up short.
Sun Ra	Posted - 2005.07.13 12:52:00 - [8] Originally by: xenorx Originally by: zoturi retribution, 5x medium pulses ab/web/scrambler 5x heatsinks II Hmm would be great but there is not enough cpu. You can get 2 heatsinks possibly three max. Im at work atm but I have tried and know it comes up short. Not to mention it only has 4 turrent hardpoints Frank made me do it
MrRookie	Posted - 2005.07.13 13:06:00 - [9] ACtualy I think its bether to use modulated pulses on the Retribution with a gank setup. If I remember correctly you can fitt an extra heatsink then and you save cap. _____________________________________________ \o/ I got a siggy... WTB 3x Medium Modulated Pulse Energy Beams http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=139877
Apoll	Posted - 2005.07.13 13:10:00 - [10] Originally by: zoturi retribution, 5x medium pulses ab/web/scrambler 5x heatsinks II Hmm 1st retri get 4 guns. 2nd 5 HS = 150 CPU. The ship produce 156 at max skill. 2 HS is the maximum with t2 pulses, 3 HS with the best named pulses. Regarding the original post. Retribution is the best ship for either tank or gang. Isn't NOT SOLO ship because of 1 med. But is the perfect one for teams. Here is what you can fit on it. 4 t2 Pulses Ab 2 HS T2 - Small armor rep- Cap power relay - and armor hardener. Also 4 Best names Pulses Ab 3 HS t2, - Small Armor rep - cap power relay (you need it or you are out of cap, exept you have implants). And the best tanking setup. (OPEN YOUR MINDS). 4 X T2 200mm Autocannons. AB Small Armor rep-400mm rolled-3 Gyrostabiliser T2. The last setup provide aprox 2k armor!!!! All the above setups have been created with the cap usage in mid. You run all the modules without run out of cap. The last setup (autocannons) you don't have problem even if someone with BS drain your cap. The guns are working, and you do what ever damage you want against enemies. Not only thermal/EM. I use the latest setup against Angels in PVE and depending the gang in pvp. Ofc is personal taste and I always keep open mind. But nearly 2k armor on AF and the mad resistances the Retri has is very tempting. Especialy after the last patch :) Also with good skills your dps is near (using 3 gyro t2) wolf with 4 times the armor.

MrRookie	Posted - 2005.07.13 13:19:00 - [11] Its an interesting setup you got Apoll. I`m not yet convinced about putting projectiles on the retribution unless its 280 arties. As long as you have the 50% cap reduction I still think pulses are fine. But the 2k armor rox _____________________________________________ \o/ I got a siggy... WTB 3x Medium Modulated Pulse Energy Beams http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=139877
Apoll	Posted - 2005.07.13 13:37:00 - [12] Originally by: MrRookie Its an interesting setup you got Apoll. I`m not yet convinced about putting projectiles on the retribution unless its 280 arties. As long as you have the 50% cap reduction I still think pulses are fine. But the 2k armor rox 280mm get more pg but 4 X 280mm AB 200mm rolled- small armor rep-MAPC-2 Gyro t2 You need MAPC to fit it but is fine (nearly everyone need MAPC to fit their biggest guns without plate!). With T2 200mm if i'm right (i'm not home atm) you have 1600+ Armor. The ghost is still there :) Retribution has the biggest PG and Cap (better recharge too) than any other ship. So you can use what ever you want.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.13 13:40:00 - [13] Originally by: Apoll Originally by: MrRookie Its an interesting setup you got Apoll. I`m not yet convinced about putting projectiles on the retribution unless its 280 arties. As long as you have the 50% cap reduction I still think pulses are fine. But the 2k armor rox 280mm get more pg but 4 X 280mm AB 200mm rolled- small armor rep-MAPC-2 Gyro t2 You need MAPC to fit it but is fine (nearly everyone need MAPC to fit their biggest guns without plate!). With T2 200mm if i'm right (i'm not home atm) you have 1600+ Armor. The ghost is still there :) Retribution has the biggest PG and Cap (better recharge too) than any other ship. So you can use what ever you want. You have absolutely crap DoT though, why not fit 150 IIs if you don't wanna fit beams, they heavily outdamage 280 IIs. Even the 400mm plate + 200mms setup sucks compared to a auto/plate setup on a wolf, and the wolf has an extra mid to tackle too. Sure the wolf will have like 400 less armor but it will do more damage and can dictate range w/ a web.
theRaptor	Posted - 2005.07.13 13:56:00 - [14] I like half tank, half gank. My enyo uses 125mm II's, small rep II, 200mm plate and two mag stab II's. That is not dead which can eternal lie, And with strange aeons even death may die. -- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure.
TuRtLe HeAd	Posted - 2005.07.13 14:44:00 - [15] Dont really care TBH, Cos Wolf Pwns All Amarr Ass Ships.
Apoll	Posted - 2005.07.13 15:15:00 - [16] Originally by: DrunkenOne You have absolutely crap DoT though, why not fit 150 IIs if you don't wanna fit beams, they heavily outdamage 280 IIs. Even the 400mm plate + 200mms setup sucks compared to a auto/plate setup on a wolf, and the wolf has an extra mid to tackle too. Sure the wolf will have like 400 less armor but it will do more damage and can dictate range w/ a web. 1st that specific thread we have already discuss it another 4 times here in the forums and you never had answers on what we asked you. Don't want to start again the same thread. 400mm doesn't fit in Wolf without MAPC, and sacrifice your med slots. (it doesn't fit because of PG and CPU on final setup). You also don't have the ability run everything on the same time on armor rep and both your meds without put power relay. (Who drop you 1 less Gyro to fit). Finaly 400mm is 560+ armor (double on T2) and not 400. And on top you add better resists and better native armor retribution has. (The Hull Upgrades skill add all the ship fittings and then adds the skill bonus). 2nd the guy asked about 280mm and i gave him an idea. Don't try to force others use what YOU think is right. It's a game at the end of the day we can use what we want. Try to kill angels with lasers. And I assure you when you are back with your pod i will spare you a new ship. 3rd I'm not evil but insteed of writing your personal opinion trying to convise the others what is right and what wrong without proof (you never did it on our last "conflicts" regarding that discussion), it's better to spend your time protect your region.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.13 15:29:00 - [17] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 13/07/2005 15:29:34 Originally by: Apoll 1st that specific thread we have already discuss it another 4 times here in the forums and you never had answers on what we asked you. Don't want to start again the same thread. 400mm doesn't fit in Wolf without MAPC, and sacrifice your med slots. (it doesn't fit because of PG and CPU on final setup). You also don't have the ability run everything on the same time on armor rep and both your meds without put power relay. (Who drop you 1 less Gyro to fit). Finaly 400mm is 560+ armor (double on T2) and not 400. And on top you add better resists and better native armor retribution has. (The Hull Upgrades skill add all the ship fittings and then adds the skill bonus). Funny, I seem to fit a 400mm plate setup on a wolf with no microaux, though my setup does use one but thats not cause of the plate. And I can run everything without a cap relay. And you claimed a retribution has like 2k or so armor with a plate. My wolf has 1600 or so, which is 400 less, dont know where you come up with 560+ less. You also forget that the wolf has moer shields, and the ridiculous shield resists you would have to eat through to even get to its armor. Finally, wolf gets not one but 2 range bonuses, making its autocannons hit much further out than urs. But yeah, if you wanna put autos or arty on a retribution to kill angels, thats smart given their resists. I'd be interested in your autoretribution vs my autowolf... convo me ingame maybe we can set something up.
Idara	Posted - 2005.07.13 16:43:00 - [18] Originally by: TuRtLe HeAd Dont really care TBH, Cos Wolf Pwns All Amarr Ass Ships. What a constructive post... Anyways, my Harpy is usually tanked. 4x 150mm II's 1x Small SB II 1x Annointed EM Ward 1x Passive EM Ward 1x CAp Recharger or Warp Scrambler or Webber 2x PDU's Quote: Klevari > I ♣ my wife and I ♠ my dog! Ageis > you club your wife and you spade your dog?
Apoll	Posted - 2005.07.13 16:49:00 - [19] K. let's start. I use the 200mm t2 setup. You do thermal to me because I have only 35% there and 1956.25 armor with 400mm Rolled. (840 hp bonus 560 was before patch) Wolf. 4 X 200mm Auto t2. Warp Disruptor. One free! 400mm rolled, small armor rep, 2 gyro t2. 56/60 PG Armor 1675. Cap shutdown 1:30 min with only Armor Rep constatly on. Speed 342m/s 10% Explosive resistance. I will shoot you with explosives and I will shred your Wolf armor in no time without calculate any damage mods. We can replace the Gyro with T2 explosive membrane. (Don't worth put active because it will drain faster the cap). Then we have 43.75% resist. 3PG left and 1 med slot. 130/156.3 CPU I hit with Kinetic you have 25% resist there. You start with 25% native damage bonus. I start with 2 more Gyro t2 which is aprox another 15%? (don't want to do exactly calculations which i know is more). 10% more damage on paper you do up to know. And you hit 35% thermal resist and i hit 25% kinetic resist. Now 2 gyro t2 i gave more than you are rougly another 15% Rof? So if not outdamage you by a let's say 12% very generously we do the same damage. And you have to destroy 1956.25 armor with armor rep constatly and I have to destroy 1675 armor with armor rep not working after 1:30 minutes. if you use ANY other cap eater module your cap will last much less. (if you use t2 cap recharger you just last little longer your cap will go 0 either way). Btw I will be at 530 speed because I can have my AB all the time on along with my rep without problem. So even if you do the above setup which is crappy for wolf (you don't use 1 med slot and you have 1 low slot less than me) I will kill you in long last battle. if you fit your wolf as you have to fit it (and you use it atm), in 1v1 (always) I will shred you in pieces faster. Cheers
MineallMine	Posted - 2005.07.13 16:55:00 - [20] You can fit a Wolf with 400mm without a MAPC. There are other autocannons besides the 200mm. And with the range and damage bonuses on the Wolf they will still hit harder and farther than 200s on a Retribution.

DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.13 17:14:00 - [21] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 13/07/2005 17:28:40 Originally by: Apoll K. let's start. I use the 200mm t2 setup. You do thermal to me because I have only 35% there and 1956.25 armor with 400mm Rolled. (840 hp bonus 560 was before patch) Wolf. 4 X 200mm Auto t2. Warp Disruptor. One free! 400mm rolled, small armor rep, 2 gyro t2. 56/60 PG Armor 1675. Cap shutdown 1:30 min with only Armor Rep constatly on. Speed 342m/s 10% Explosive resistance. Please since you are so confident, evemail me or convo me so we can test.
Apoll	Posted - 2005.07.13 20:11:00 - [22] Huh? Arrange 1v1 with an ATUK in non safe area? This is a new joke??? No m8. I'm are there in your region. Just come of your SS to meet me. :) Originally by: MineallMine Edited by: MineallMine on 13/07/2005 17:03:52 You can fit a Wolf with 400mm without a MAPC. edit: with an AB II. Regarding my statement yes. Read my post above please. If you want to leave your med slot without use please do it. Originally by: MineallMine There are other autocannons besides the 200mm. And with the range and damage bonuses on the Wolf they will still hit harder and farther than 200s on a Retribution. edit: Wolf shield exp resit 60%, Ret shield therm 20%. And the wolf has more shields Why hit Wolf shield with explosive when i can hit kinetic? And shield is what? 100 more only? We don't tank it either way. Also if you put AB T2, 400mm rolled, 4X150mm, and Armor rep you have 2 grid to fit 2 low and 1 med slots. Either way you don't have cap to support your armor rep and by turning the AB on you have cap only for 1:15s (all skills at 5 and round up depending implants). The 150mm are shorter than 200mm by aprox. 130m? Also if you bother to read the whole thread we just said some ideas and none (exept Drunken) tried to persuade the others about something. None started any thread between Wolf vs Retri. Yes Lasers sux against Minmatar worst than Angels in PvE, because of the high resistances. That's the point use 200mm on Retri if someone want than Laser, to benefit from the choise to do what ever damage he want.
MineallMine	Posted - 2005.07.13 20:24:00 - [23] 1. You were the one who said you couldn't fit 400 w/o a MAPC ... you can 2. A wolf can fit an AB II AND a Cap Recharger with its plate and guns this makes it a lot easier to run the rep. 3. YOU were the one that tried to convince everydbody an autoret would beat an auto wolf ... i disagree. 4. You were the one who said you would do explosive dmg against a wolf. I just pointed out that with the Wolf's shield it would take you approx 700 damage before you even get to armor. All I am saying is that a wold is still a better GUN ship than a retribution. There are certain situations where a Retri would be better off using guns, but in those same ituations you would probably be better off with a wolf because of bonuses and an extra mid slot. And with AC Falloff is the important statistic and is the same for all 3 of the AC.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.13 21:08:00 - [24] Originally by: Apoll Huh? Arrange 1v1 with an ATUK in non safe area? This is a new joke??? No m8. I'm are there in your region. Just come of your SS to meet me. :) Ahh yes, smacking, the last resort of someone who knows hes an idiot, and is beaten in an argument.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.14 03:00:00 - [25] Still waiting for that evemail.
Selim	Posted - 2005.07.14 03:04:00 - [26] So... what is this thread about?
The Hanz	Posted - 2005.07.14 03:49:00 - [27] I've killed a Ferox in my Harpy before, in tank mode, but in gank mode I can kill a frigate in less than seven seconds. Fit for either and own either way, those warp disruptor's cap use seems to be my bane though.
Cummilla	Posted - 2005.07.14 03:56:00 - [28] Exactly how do you "Tank" an AF like a harpy when your EM resists for shields start out exactly where they do for most other non AF or HAC classes do? And you can't really fit two EM hardeners now can you? Harpy in my estimation is worst example of how a AF can tank whilst the enyo may well be the best.
keepiru	Posted - 2005.07.14 05:48:00 - [29] Originally by: Cummilla Exactly how do you "Tank" an AF like a harpy when your EM resists for shields start out exactly where they do for most other non AF or HAC classes do? And you can't really fit two EM hardeners now can you? Harpy in my estimation is worst example of how a AF can tank whilst the enyo may well be the best. Id vote for the retribution as best tank - enyo exp base 10%, retri therm base 35% - too bad its so limited. Yup, best af tank: Retribution with 2 Small Rep IIs etc, too bad its about as combat-useful as pottsey's passive-tanks. -------------
crimson moon81	Posted - 2005.07.14 07:01:00 - [30] i am not sure if my stup is tank or gank. i use my enyo for 0.0 hunting in caldari space. my setup is.. high: 4 t2 neutrons 1 proto cloak mid: gistii ab t2 cap recharger low t2 armor rep 3 pdu 2s i am able to run the armor rep and my ab constantly. i can take down 750k raven spawns with ease. i use the cloak when someone with a bad sec comes into the system, i just warp to a planet or moon at 100k and cloak. works well for me.



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