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Scots Crusader	Posted - 2005.07.14 08:05:00 - [1] I am a week or so away from having the skills to fly an a/f. JUst wondering the better one to get. being minnie it will obviously be wolf or jag. just want peoples feedback on the best one to buy. In gunnery skills i am better with arties than auto's if this is any connection to the discussion, but can use t2 versions of both.
The Hanz	Posted - 2005.07.14 08:35:00 - [2] As with all my T2 ships, just buy both if you can and see which one you like better, though I do see more Wolf's running around than Jaguars, lots more.
Bull Slater	Posted - 2005.07.14 08:57:00 - [3] Jaguar's seem to be used as tacklets and Wolf's as tanking damage dealers, I'm sure you can set both up to do either role though. I have a Wolf primarily for the extra armour, low slot and turret hardpoint. If you can afford both then as suggested, get both and see what you prefer. You can always sell them on if you don't like them.
Najira	Posted - 2005.07.14 09:09:00 - [4] Long range (howitzers) -> Wolf (armor tank) Short range(autocannons) -> Jaguar (shield tank) At least, that's what I use them for. Jaguar's advantage is it's speed.
wild Ari	Posted - 2005.07.14 09:09:00 - [5] i would say, get a wolf first. better in the damage department, unless you NEED a 3rd med slot and can sacrifice a turret slot for that. Wolf Setups Jaguar Setups
Scots Crusader	Posted - 2005.07.14 09:42:00 - [6] Cheers folks. Seems like i will just get both and experiment then. Although to be honest, i am leaning towards wolf. Tha damage i could do with 4 t2 280's is a big temptation. :)
Aryn Strom	Posted - 2005.07.14 13:37:00 - [7] If you want pure damage then go with 4 200's. The reduced power requirements make it a pretty easy fit plus you can throw a couple of gyro's on too for additional punch. This setup just shreds through NPC's - can take down the lower end gurista battleships with it pretty easily. Anything smaller is just toast. Plus with the smallest (pre-bonus) sig radius in the game the Wolf does really well against the new missles - torps hit for about 22 sitting still.
R31D	Posted - 2005.07.14 15:31:00 - [8] Edited by: R31D on 14/07/2005 15:33:31 Originally by: Najira Long range (howitzers) -> Wolf (armor tank) Short range(autocannons) -> Jaguar (shield tank) At least, that's what I use them for. Jaguar's advantage is it's speed. If you are using AC's on a Jag, you'll be wanting a web/AB combo at least, and then the third slot generally goes on a scrambler, which seems to mean you have to armour tank it as well. The Wolf is hard to tank from what I've heard (due to natural resisiatnces), but that setup is probably more feasable
Sarmaul	Posted - 2005.07.14 15:46:00 - [9] Originally by: R31D Edited by: R31D on 14/07/2005 15:33:31 Originally by: Najira Long range (howitzers) -> Wolf (armor tank) Short range(autocannons) -> Jaguar (shield tank) At least, that's what I use them for. Jaguar's advantage is it's speed. If you are using AC's on a Jag, you'll be wanting a web/AB combo at least, and then the third slot generally goes on a scrambler, which seems to mean you have to armour tank it as well. Web and AB are a must, and pick one of the following for the 3rd: Scrambler Tracking Disruptor (god I LOVE these!) Target Painter Shield Booster (always handy ). I usually go for 2x200mms, 1 RL or NOS, Web, Ab and Disruptor, Armor Rep and 2 Gyros. No need for tracking enhancers as the jag gives 5% tracking per level, and you're using autocannons which track pretty much everything). The armor rep is so I can warp out, repair quickly and jump back into the action. Fly minmatar ships like they're supposed to be flown - jump in, do as much damage as possible and get the hell out of there quick. Speed over sustained, gyros over tracking, gank over tank .
BigJim Beef	Posted - 2005.07.14 15:48:00 - [10] Originally by: R31D Edited by: R31D on 14/07/2005 15:33:31 Originally by: Najira Long range (howitzers) -> Wolf (armor tank) Short range(autocannons) -> Jaguar (shield tank) At least, that's what I use them for. Jaguar's advantage is it's speed. If you are using AC's on a Jag, you'll be wanting a web/AB combo at least, and then the third slot generally goes on a scrambler, which seems to mean you have to armour tank it as well. The Wolf is hard to tank from what I've heard (due to natural resisiatnces), but that setup is probably more feasable Wolf can tank reasonably well if you use 250's and don't mind not tanking explosive. You're probably better off going for max damage and a light tank, but there are options.

DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.14 15:55:00 - [11] Originally by: BigJim Beef Wolf can tank reasonably well if you use 250's and don't mind not tanking explosive. You're probably better off going for max damage and a light tank, but there are options. 250s are simply terrible though, probably the worst small gun in the game.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.07.14 15:57:00 - [12] do you prefer pvp or pve for this ship? both can fill either role very well, but in the end you will always have more flexibility with the jaguar. it simply doesn't have that great damage output - but can be tanked very well. -- Thread Killer <END TRANSMISSIO
Muad 'dib	Posted - 2005.07.14 15:59:00 - [13] Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: BigJim Beef Wolf can tank reasonably well if you use 250's and don't mind not tanking explosive. You're probably better off going for max damage and a light tank, but there are options. 250s are simply terrible though, probably the worst small gun in the game. lol, they suk, for sure, but i rekon the 1200mm is more sucky personnely.
BigJim Beef	Posted - 2005.07.14 16:01:00 - [14] Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: BigJim Beef Wolf can tank reasonably well if you use 250's and don't mind not tanking explosive. You're probably better off going for max damage and a light tank, but there are options. 250s are simply terrible though, probably the worst small gun in the game. No argument from me, but it's an option if you want to PvE with it and need a bit more survivability, but don't want to put yourself too close to things with lots of small autocannons
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.14 16:03:00 - [15] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 14/07/2005 16:03:18 Originally by: Muad 'dib 250s are simply terrible though, probably the worst small gun in the game. lol, they suk, for sure, but i rekon the 1200mm is more sucky personnely. 250 II = 4.8x / 8.5 = ~.5647dps 280 II = 6.9x / 10.5 = ~.6571 125 II = 2.4x / 3.25 = ~.7385 150 II = 3.3x / 4.25 = ~.7764 75 II = 1.8x / 2.6 = ~.6923 dual light beam II = 2.4x / 3.2 = .75 med beam II = 3.6x / 4 = .9 \o/ for minmatar
Weirda	Posted - 2005.07.14 16:04:00 - [16] Originally by: DrunkenOne 250s are simply terrible though, probably the worst small gun in the game. agreed. though with wolf bonus, they pretty much same range as 280s on ship w/o bonus. frig battles generally aren't terribly time intensive (which is where 250s just get worse and worse damage wise). They are a bit more terrible then the 280s then they should be (which are really pretty terrible as well). that being said - weirda did put together 1 wolf setup with 2x280 and 2x250 which allowed for extra damage mod without sacrificing something else. with both guns effective range essentially the same it didn't really matter that they have different base optimal. -- Thread Killer <END TRANSMISSIO
Siroc	Posted - 2005.07.14 16:15:00 - [17] also, its hard to compare guns directly. Lasers hit hardest, but most Amarr ships do not have damage bonuses, Projectiles work quite well on Minmatar ships because we have bonuses for them. if you compare high end gun frigates of 4 races: Punisher = no damage bonus, 3 turrets Merlin = 2 turrets, damage bonus Tristan = 2 turrets, damage bonus Rifter = 3 turrets, damage bonus Incursus has 3 turrets and damage bonus, but it has less PG and missing 4th high slot. Not saying that Rifter is the king, other frigates have their strengths to offset the gun damage of Rifter with projectiles, just pointing out that the fact that projectile guns are low DPS is equalized by ships they are used on. aka (Ohotnik)
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.14 16:45:00 - [18] Originally by: DrunkenOne Edit: Also remember that all the combat assault frigs get a damage bonus to their guns, so these numbers stay evenly unbalanced . Minmatar desperately need a RoF bonus to compete in DPS... at least we got the uber 1 volley Originally by: Siroc also, its hard to compare guns directly. Lasers hit hardest, but most Amarr ships do not have damage bonuses, Projectiles work quite well on Minmatar ships because we have bonuses for them. if you compare high end gun frigates of 4 races: Punisher = no damage bonus, 3 turrets Merlin = 2 turrets, damage bonus Tristan = 2 turrets, damage bonus Rifter = 3 turrets, damage bonus Incursus has 3 turrets and damage bonus, but it has less PG and missing 4th high slot. Not saying that Rifter is the king, other frigates have their strengths to offset the gun damage of Rifter with projectiles, just pointing out that the fact that projectile guns are low DPS is equalized by ships they are used on. This thread is not about frigs, its about assault frigs, so your points are not valid, sorry.
Siroc	Posted - 2005.07.14 17:17:00 - [19] oh crap, you right, i though Wolf had second damage bonus. well, it gets quite a bit of extra range though over other boats. So its not that bad. aka (Ohotnik)
R31D	Posted - 2005.07.14 18:27:00 - [20] Originally by: DrunkenOne Edited by: DrunkenOne on 14/07/2005 16:05:02 Originally by: Muad 'dib 250s are simply terrible though, probably the worst small gun in the game. lol, they suk, for sure, but i rekon the 1200mm is more sucky personnely. 250 II = 4.8x / 8.5 = ~.5647dps 280 II = 6.9x / 10.5 = ~.6571 125 II = 2.4x / 3.25 = ~.7385 150 II = 3.3x / 4.25 = ~.7764 75 II = 1.8x / 2.6 = ~.6923 dual light beam II = 2.4x / 3.2 = .75 med beam II = 3.6x / 4 = .9 \o/ for minmatar Edit: Also remember that all the combat assault frigs get a damage bonus to their guns, so these numbers stay evenly unbalanced . Minmatar desperately need a RoF bonus to compete in DPS... at least we got the uber 1 volley 75mm Gatling Railgun II does more DPS than a 250mm II. I've got to try these bad boys out

DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.14 18:34:00 - [21] Originally by: Siroc oh crap, you right, i though Wolf had second damage bonus. well, it gets quite a bit of extra range though over other boats. So its not that bad. Not really. Harpy shoots MUCH further, and every other combat assault gets an optimal bonus, wolf just has the extra falloff bonus.
Siroc	Posted - 2005.07.14 18:37:00 - [22] Edited by: Siroc on 14/07/2005 18:37:42 hmm... fall-off on projectiles are almost as big as optimal for hwys and actualy bigger for acs. its pretty good trade off. aka (Ohotnik)
Selim	Posted - 2005.07.14 18:50:00 - [23] I STILL have no ******* idea why the falloff bonus on the wolf is only 5%. Thats just unfair. So is the laughable powergrid, less than Harpy ololol. And yes, 250s are pathetic. 650s and 1200s too. They need to be much easier to fit, and 3 new artillery cannons need to be added to be in between the two, just like 350mm, 200mm and 125mm railguns.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.14 18:56:00 - [24] Originally by: Selim And yes, 250s are pathetic. 650s and 1200s too. They need to be much easier to fit, and 3 new artillery cannons need to be added to be in between the two, just like 350mm, 200mm and 125mm railguns. Yeah I dunno what you fit between 250s and 280s though, but Minny desperately need 1300 arty and a 700 arty.
Siroc	Posted - 2005.07.14 19:23:00 - [25] true, lower end projectile guns are crap. tried every combination on my phoon to make 1200mm to work and still went back to 1400mm or 800mm. They simply don't have enough of that whoomp factor that big guns do. aka (Ohotnik)
Mjnari	Posted - 2005.07.14 23:16:00 - [26] On the original topic, I use my Jaguar when I'm just playing around (since it's relatively easy to get high resists on it and those, coupled with a decent shield booster, will take you through 2x 120k bounty cruisers without a sweat). The Wolf is a bit trickier to set up and usually eats a bit more isk, but then, you do get what you pay for. :)
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.07.15 00:55:00 - [27] Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: BigJim Beef Wolf can tank reasonably well if you use 250's and don't mind not tanking explosive. You're probably better off going for max damage and a light tank, but there are options. 250s are simply terrible though, probably the worst small gun in the game. Heh. 280's miss interceptors, even webbed, at close range on a regular basis. Did I mention I dislike small arty? "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Foulis	Posted - 2005.07.15 05:50:00 - [28] I find a good PVE setup for the wolf is: High: 4x 150mm Light Autocannon II Med: 1mn Afterburner I, Webifier I Low: 2x Gyrostabilizer II, 400mm Armor Plate, 1 small named repairer. This setup allows you to tank (a little, cap goes pretty fast but I rarely need it) and gives you TONS of armor. Also when I want damage, I switch out the armor for another gyro and the repairer for nanofibre. The missle slot is missing, but I suck with all missle launchers and there just isn't any cpu left.
Scots Crusader	Posted - 2005.07.15 07:15:00 - [29] Thanks again folks. This has gave me heaps to think about. Seems it will not be as easy to pick a ship and set up as i had originally thought.


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