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Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.15 22:44:00 - [1] << Mike Wallis: "We absolutely investigate each and every reported incident of exploiters or cheaters. Under no circumstances should players be allowed to take advantage of the system through these methods. As for "griefers," we've pushed them outside of Empire-controlled space by deploying increased police NPC protection within the protected systems, and also by setting up powerful sentry guns at all stargates within Empire space. We have also seen a more involved response from the player community to actions by player-pirates, which is exactly what we wanted to see. Our goal isn't to create a level playing field. Our goal is to give the players the tools to achieve and excel -- it's the nature of a fully free market environment." >> Since the intention is to push the 'griefers' outside of Empire controlled space, the only question I have left is: Why bother? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Crepiscule	Posted - 2003.07.15 22:54:00 - [2] Where did this come from?
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.15 22:56:00 - [3] Oh sorry...Was pretty disgusted upon reading it Talk to CCP Questions Answered - Featured at Eve Vault Page 4, in response to the question << 32.) Are "griefers" and cheaters being chased after? Could you describe as much as is allowed, what CCP is doing to keep all players on an "even as possible" playing field? >> Edited by: Jash Illian on 15/07/2003 22:56:43 I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW![/i]- Lallante*
Galk	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:00:00 - [4] Im sure there will be many a person that will continue to enjoy eve. If you think there's no point, then head for the door, everyones got a choice:) Im sure there are other mmorpgs out there where you can pvp, grief or whatever as much as you like. Like this guy said earlier.. "Maybe the people who acted like jackasses killing everyone in sight for no reason should blame themselves for the current state of Eve. Using exploits, cheats, whatever you want to call it... fact is you did it to yourselves." ------------------------ ---- Little wonder why people were, what this person was telling my friends: http://galk.50megs.com/logs/
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:02:00 - [5] "Since the intention is to push the 'griefers' outside of Empire controlled space, the only question I have left is: Why bother?" Note though, there's clear distinction made between the PC pirates and the 'griefers'. Looks like the former are getting raw end of the deal because of reaction to whining caused by the actions of the latter...
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:04:00 - [6] << Im sure there will be many a person that will continue to enjoy eve. If you think there's no point, then head for the door, everyones got a choice:) Im sure there are other mmorpgs out there where you can pvp, grief or whatever as much as you like. Like this guy said earlier.. "Maybe the people who acted like jackasses killing everyone in sight for no reason should blame themselves for the current state of Eve. Using exploits, cheats, whatever you want to call it... fact is you did it to yourselves." >> Pardon my lapse into my Texas upbringing for the moment, troll. But kiss my natural black ass, eh? There's only 1 character on this account and its sec rating is .6 despite the the sec rating changes (I came after). I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW![/i]- Lallante*
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:07:00 - [7] << Note though, there's clear distinction made between the PC pirates and the 'griefers'. Looks like the former are getting raw end of the deal because of reaction to whining caused by the actions of the latter... >> No, j0sephine, there isn't a distinction. If there had been a distinction, they would have followed this: << Hrafnkell S. Ëskarsson: "Players that persist in harasing other players or that try to cheat are banned. Several players have already be banned from the game." >> Instead, they shoved all of the pirates away from the content in the game. With no distinction between 'griefer' and 'pirate'. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Crepiscule	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:11:00 - [8] I believe when he said "giefers" he was talking about people in .5 sec space and above killing the newer players. I'm more interested in this comment: "We have also seen a more involved response from the player community to actions by player-pirates, which is exactly what we wanted to see. Our goal isn't to create a level playing field. Our goal is to give the players the tools to achieve and excel -- it's the nature of a fully free market environment." I didn't see much of a player response. I saw CCP step in and put the whole game mechanics out of whack. If they wanted to see more of a player response, they should have told the people complaining to go break the blockades. Edited by: Crepiscule on 15/07/2003 23:11:14
Master Scy	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:14:00 - [9] Galk, this was originally supposed to be a PvP game. But then the carebears arrive, and complain that there's PvP and it gets severely restricted.. This isn't the first time I've seen a PvP MMORPG turn into a Carebear MMORPG. ----------------------------- You think Marco Polo said "Damn Mongolians were camping that cave entry into the next valley the entire day, you can't get friggin anywhere in the world with those damn griefer tribes all over the place" ? -Indigo Seqi
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:15:00 - [10] << I believe when he said "giefers" he was talking about people in .5 sec space and about killing the newer players. >> Then they definately need better PR people. Cause they cast a very wide net with that statement. And caught you in it. << I'm more interested in this comment: "We have also seen a more involved response from the player community to actions by player-pirates, which is exactly what we wanted to see. Our goal isn't to create a level playing field. Our goal is to give the players the tools to achieve and excel -- it's the nature of a fully free market environment." I didn't see much of a player response. I saw CCP step in and put the whole game mechanics out of whack. If they wanted to see more of a player response, they should have told the people complaining to go break the blockades. >> That I ignored for the PR bullcrap it was. Anyone can see when corps like TTI paid m0o off instead of confronted them, the 'tools' provided were isk. And the 'more involved response' was more bleating. Edited by: Jash Illian on 15/07/2003 23:17:21 I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Galk	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:18:00 - [11] Im a little too old to play games. just stating a point, one which i belive in. Another one is that your a racist. "Pardon my lapse into my Texas upbringing for the moment, troll. But kiss my natural black ass, eh?" Im sorry but your a racist in my opinion. ------------------------ ---- Little wonder why people were, what this person was telling my friends: http://galk.50megs.com/logs/
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:18:00 - [12] << "We have also seen a more involved response from the player community to actions by player-pirates, which is exactly what we wanted to see." >> It simply makes no sense to 'expect actions to player-pirates' and at the same time try to eradicate player-pirates from the game entirely... unless the actions which might result in removing all PC pirates from the game are result of bad planning aimed at someone else i.e. the griefers. << Hrafnkell S. Ëskarsson: "Players that persist in harasing other players or that try to cheat are banned. Several players have already be banned from the game." >> Note, key offenses that make one undesirable 'griefer' appear to be persisten harrassment, and usage of exploits. This definition of 'griefer' apparently doesn't include current PC pirates because if it did, well, wouldn't the m0o people and a bunch of others who shoot everyone at random be banned by now?.. Edited by: j0sephine on 15/07/2003 23:19:05
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:23:00 - [13] << Im a little too old to play games. just stating a point, one which i belive in. Another one is that your a racist. "Pardon my lapse into my Texas upbringing for the moment, troll. But kiss my natural black ass, eh?" Im sorry but your a racist in my opinion. >> I'm a Texan. My ass is black. I'm telling you to kiss it. Calling a black man a racist is just too funny. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Kalir	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:25:00 - [14] Sadly this response isn't unexpected. Their silence during all of the debate was equivalent. Unfortunately they seem hell bent on making the game about as exciting as watching paint dry. I guess that will get them one class of customers anyway. I hope for their sake it is a big enough class to keep them going. Has anyone else noticed that during the time that m0o was supposedly "griefing" everyone the peak users steadily increased, and that as soon as they nerfed pvp out of the game the peak users has steadily decreased? Check eve-i.com.
Galk	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:29:00 - [15] Ok if you want to throw abuse at me then so be it. Like i said im just too old to get involved in arguements. Lol if my kids saw this they would be laughing to:) Sorry for any confusion, iv'e only had the internet a year or so, eve is my first online game. ------------------------ ---- Little wonder why people were, what this person was telling my friends: http://galk.50megs.com/logs/
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:29:00 - [16] << Has anyone else noticed that during the time that m0o was supposedly "griefing" everyone the peak users steadily increased, and that as soon as they nerfed pvp out of the game the peak users has steadily decreased? Check eve-i.com. >> Nah...too intelligent like. People will excuse it with something stupid like "Oh it's people gone off on Summer Vacation". When most games experience an increase during this time. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Trebonius	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:29:00 - [17] He's minmatar. The color of a persons ass determines if he is a racist? Sounds like he is just frustrated to me :P Eve expected to get more players than they did so they ended up forced to cater to the carebears so that they could recoup their losses. I can't say I blame them. There is still the chance that things will change for the better, and if not there will always be other new games to play. Edited by: Trebonius on 15/07/2003 23:30:16 -- ORE REMOVAL TECHNICIAN
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:31:00 - [18] "When most games experience an increase during this time." Yeah, just look at the amount of people who subscribed to SWG and it started just a couple of weeks ago :o ...oh, wait. :S
Gravedancer	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:33:00 - [19] <<Galk, this was originally supposed to be a PvP game. But then the carebears arrive, and complain that there's PvP and it gets severely restricted.. This isn't the first time I've seen a PvP MMORPG turn into a Carebear MMORPG.>> I know that I will probably just get flamed for this, but please listen to the views of an objective observer who thinks both the pirates and the carebears are getting a little out of control. Eve was NEVER billed as a strictly PvP game. It is a MMORPG, and it does ALLOW PvP interaction, but who ever said it was supposed to be "required" interaction? If 2 people/groups really wanted to fight each other, they have multiple options for doing so even now (declare war, both meet in Non Empire Space,etc). This is more in line with what the developers intended, I believe (I doubt they intended for there to be as many PC pirates as there are). What CCP has done is take away the forced imposition of a PvP playstyle on people who might not want it. Personally I have no problems with PC pirates (I DO make a distinction between PC pirates and griefers), but I think part of the reason we are in this situation with the game right now is precisely because too many people are going into this treating EVE like its Quake or Tribes or something. This is not a shoot-em-up game where everyone just goes at it and kills everything in sight that doesnt have a friendly tag. Its the idiots who tried to turn EVE into that that got us into the current predicament. There are a great many people who would probably be perfectly happy with EVE if they NEVER had to fight another player controlled ship. Trying to force that group of players, which I would speculate is the majority right now, into a playstyle they wont want will only result in them leaving. What CCP has done (catering to the majority) is simply a business decision. They probably rationalize that it would be better for the relatively small number of PC pirates to leave if they cant adapt to new restrictions placed upon them, than to continue to let them run rampant and have them drive away many more paying customers. Personally I think its about time people realized a couple of simple truths: 1) Some people simply dont care if there is PvP interaction in this game, and some may actively NOT want it. You may label these people as "carebears" if it makes you feel better. 2) As long as the "carebears" are the most numerous group of players (CCP customers), then the carebears will ALWAYS be the first group of players that CCP tries to please. 3) Anyone who cant accept either of the above items will probably never be happy in this game, and should probably just leave now before those of us who like the game and intend to stay have to hear any more of their negativity.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:35:00 - [20] << He's minmatar. The color of a persons ass determines if he is a racist? Sounds like he is just frustrated to me :P >> No, I'm actually a Black Man (no dreads though. too high maintenance). And frustrated? Frustrated Yah you could say that. If I had seen this yesterday, I'd prolly have cancelled my subscription before it rolled over. Now I got a month to figure out just what to do. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Hematic	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:36:00 - [21] Ok so maybe instead of further relapse explain what 'why bother' is in reference to. That and this is the second time you have reffered to yourself being black. You feel insecure about that or something? Or you trying to get the extra 20 points like some folks in MI?
Trebonius	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:38:00 - [22] (In the voice of Fat Albert) Hey, hey, hey... Gravedancer speaks the gospel truth. And Eve is still a fun game to play (maybe not for pirates anymore) or I would have left a long time ago. Edited by: Trebonius on 15/07/2003 23:39:48 -- ORE REMOVAL TECHNICIAN
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:41:00 - [23] <<< Ok so maybe instead of further relapse explain what 'why bother' is in reference to. That and this is the second time you have reffered to yourself being black. You feel insecure about that or something? Or you trying to get the extra 20 points like some folks in MI? >> Sorry kiddo. You won't goad me into a race discussion. But I will make a special place for you. You're at the top of a list of people who might make me lose sec rating on sight. Wonder how long I can bounce back and forth using my agents to repair my sec rating... :) I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Arondos	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:48:00 - [24] You can blast anybody you want if they aren't in a noobie corp. Just declaring war. Oh but wait, that's not just random homicides so I guess I'm a carebear. Life isn't fair and neither is Eve. Get over it.
Cymoril	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:48:00 - [25] Quote: Calling a black man a racist is just too funny. First, let me preface my comment with the fact that I'M not calling you a racist... But I HAVE met racists of every race, including black people. Again, I'm not calling you a racist, I'm just saying being black does NOT preclude someone from being a racist. Just wanted to clarify that. Edited by: Cymoril on 15/07/2003 23:51:20 Edited by: Cymoril on 15/07/2003 23:51:59
Master Scy	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:49:00 - [26] Gravedancer, as many have pointed out, including Jash, PvP was never forced on players after sentry guns were inserted in 0.5+ systems. There were just 2 or 3 choke points in empire space where there were griefers & pirates, and for someone who pays attention it was possible to avoid them, or to run through them, etc. I never wanted a game where PvP was unrestricted and unpunished, I merely don't like the current situation where the pirates are limited to 50% of all space which contains 5% of the population (half of which is probably the pirates themselves). ----------------------------- You think Marco Polo said "Damn Mongolians were camping that cave entry into the next valley the entire day, you can't get friggin anywhere in the world with those damn griefer tribes all over the place" ? -Indigo Seqi
Miner Habib	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:49:00 - [27] Ultima Online pre-trammel/fellucia split=PvP game Ultima Online post-trammel/fellucia split=carebare game Asherons Call darktide server=PvP game Asherons Call all other servers=carebare game EVE in its current state=confused...heading towards carebare candyland plz k thx
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:53:00 - [28] << Ultima Online pre-trammel/fellucia split=PvP game Ultima Online post-trammel/fellucia split=carebare game Asherons Call darktide server=PvP game Asherons Call all other servers=carebare game EVE in its current state=confused...heading towards carebare candyland >> You missed AO: PvP Hybrid where PvP is allowed based on zones. And the developers are smart enough to say "What? You didn't see the warning signs on entering a PvP zone?" I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Miner Habib	Posted - 2003.07.15 23:57:00 - [29] didnt play AO (anarchy online I guess)... I also think that PvP zones in eve (0.0 space) should occupy a greater amount of the game space (70%). The secure empire area should enclose the remaining 30% of space in 3 major "towns". EVE lacks central 'hubs' of activity in my opinion, and free un-molested movement around the entire map should stop. oh ya I dont pk or grief...
Gravedancer	Posted - 2003.07.16 00:04:00 - [30] You missed AO: PvP Hybrid where PvP is allowed based on zones. And the developers are smart enough to say "What? You didn't see the warning signs on entering a PvP zone?" Which is sorta what we have now in EVE, intended or not, right or not. We now have PvP "zones", which are the non-empire space. If someone really WANTS PvP, they know where those zones are, and can go out there. If a pirate is out there and wants to come back to the civilized world, there are means for them to do so. Simply taking a week or 2 off from wanton killing will see your security rating shift considerably towards 0.0 and then you can be free to go into the "non PvP" areas in empire space. Im not really in favor of the situation as it sits now.. I think there could have been a better way found to deal with Griefers, and I agree that most pirate blockades could be avoided fairly easily, but hey... I still like the game, even without limitless PvP. If I really want to get into a fight, I will either declare war on someone, or head out to non empire space and find some PC pirates to kill. Im sure you are all sitting around an asteroid somewhere singing "where have all the good times gone" since you arent industrious enough to do things to get your sec rating back in shape, or simply mine or something while waiting for it to naturally run to neutral. These forums would be a lot more peacefull if people whining about the "anti pirate" changes would realize that no matter how much whining you do its not going to change anything, and do one of 2 things: 1) Leave the game and go play Quake or Doom 2) Accept the fact that its not going to change, and do what you have to do to reintegrate your character into "society", even if it means simply taking a week or 2 off and/or playing another character.

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