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Trespasser S0utherN Comfort Tribal Band 4	Posted - 2013.02.05 18:02:00 - [1] - Quote I started put this in another thread but i thought it would be better for everyone to see it and offer Constructive feedback 1. Have a mod like the cyno jammer but a cloak jammer.. you cant have both running and it needs an upgrade in the Ihub + the mod + it has around the same cost per day as a jammer. you turn it on and after 30 mins it deactivates all cloaks within the system and they cannot be reactivated till the mod is turned off. The 30 min timer would show up in space like station timers do for example. this way you dont have supers ratting in a ni-invulerable state because they can be dropped atleast. It also gives the cloaky camper a chance to leave by showing the timer throughout the system. So if he is really around and not at work with his computer running at home, he can get away. You Cannot have a cyno jammer and a cloak jammer anchored in the same system, you have to pick one or the other.. I know this is a very hotly debated subject.. i feel the cloak as a whole is in a perfect spot.. i just really hate this AFK cloaky aspect.. I have no problem with people raiding supply lines and causing problems but logging in and going to work does none of these objectives other then to shutdown a system for No risk to the cloaky pilot
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 13936	Posted - 2013.02.05 18:28:00 - [2] - Quote No. For all the reasons listed with this idea before. Vote Malcanis for CSM 8
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 500	Posted - 2013.02.05 18:30:00 - [3] - Quote This was a terrible idea before and still terrible. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Trespasser S0utherN Comfort Tribal Band 4	Posted - 2013.02.05 18:34:00 - [4] - Quote well Humor me, i dont sit around this forum all day What are the reasons?
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 13938	Posted - 2013.02.05 18:41:00 - [5] - Quote Trespasser wrote: well Humor me, i dont sit around this forum all day What are the reasons? Searching often helps. But I'll give you one. Local doesn't need it's intel improving. Vote Malcanis for CSM 8
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Unclaimed. 1245	Posted - 2013.02.05 18:44:00 - [6] - Quote I see. You want to stop the play dynamic where a cloaked vessel inside a system cannot be found. The cloaked vessel is being reacted to by the PvE pilots in system, by these pilots exiting areas where they can be attacked. In simplest terms, this is a stalemate. I don't feel your solution is quite balanced for overall play, as it simply hands victory to the PvE pilots. You may not see it in these simple terms, but objectively you cannot deny that it is possible, if not highly probable, that the PvE pilots would use it as such. You need to be able to counter the cloaked vessel. For balance, this must be a mutual compromise, with both sides contributing. The condition for hunting a cloaked vessel must not render them obsolete, or pointless to fly. This condition is agreed on by many, as not showing cloaked vessels in local chat. Otherwise, you have effortless detection of a craft not balanced for such easy locating and subsequent combat. It would be trivialized. So, there you have it. Take cloaked vessels out of local chat, mutually viewing and viewed by to be fair. Pick up the ability to detect and hunt. WH's, as requested, should probably be left out of these changes. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.
Daichi Yamato Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire 585	Posted - 2013.02.05 18:45:00 - [7] - Quote u say ur all for attacking the supply lines, but how is that meant to happen when every miner and ratter can see any attack coming well ahead of time? the PvE players flee and either cloak or sit in a POS the moment an unkown enters local. what is the attacker meant to do then? just leave and allow the PvE players to continue making ridiculous amounts of isk without any risk at all? no. Instead he safes up and cloaks. either afk or not, he stays in system to prevent the core money making systems of an alliance from working. afk cloaking IS how u attack an enemies supply lines. as for: Quote: well Humor me, i dont sit around this forum all day What are the reasons? its not the job of other ppl to constantly repeat this thread over and over again. u should be able to use the search function or read other threads on the same subject, especially seeing how many there are and the fact that u've even posted IN one...
Trespasser S0utherN Comfort Tribal Band 4	Posted - 2013.02.05 19:05:00 - [8] - Quote This system has many draw backs... You have your system open to cynos so anyone can come in if they want to, and since using this mod will cost the same if not more a month then the cyno jammer most alliances wont spam it IT also gives time for cloakys to leave the system.. if they are really around. IM telling you its not reasonable to have someone come into a system and cloak and then go to work, that isnt risk vs reward at all. Thats ZERO Risk for untold amount of economic damage. If the best thing you can come back at me with is "well local lets you see them" then your not reading.
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 13944	Posted - 2013.02.05 19:12:00 - [9] - Quote Someone cloaked cannot stop you mining, ratting, docking, undocking, using gates, using modules etc. The only one stopping you, is you. Vote Malcanis for CSM 8
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Unclaimed. 1247	Posted - 2013.02.05 19:15:00 - [10] - Quote Trespasser wrote: This system has many draw backs... You have your system open to cynos so anyone can come in if they want to, and since using this mod will cost the same if not more a month then the cyno jammer most alliances wont spam it IT also gives time for cloakys to leave the system.. if they are really around. IM telling you its not reasonable to have someone come into a system and cloak and then go to work, that isnt risk vs reward at all. Thats ZERO Risk for untold amount of economic damage. If the best thing you can come back at me with is "well local lets you see them" then your not reading. But you also have local giving the local economy zero risk, as regarding PvP vulnerability. Short of a blob overwhelming the system, your miners and ratters are never at any risk. You misrepresent the cloaked vessel causing this damage, when it is in fact the stalemate between both sides. It is a failure of objectivity to not place an equal amount of blame on the pilots hiding from combat, enabled by the same local that tells the hunting pilots that they are present to be found. The solution requires a sacrifice from both sides, not just one. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.
Trespasser S0utherN Comfort Tribal Band 4	Posted - 2013.02.05 19:17:00 - [11] - Quote Nikk Narrel wrote: Trespasser wrote: This system has many draw backs... You have your system open to cynos so anyone can come in if they want to, and since using this mod will cost the same if not more a month then the cyno jammer most alliances wont spam it IT also gives time for cloakys to leave the system.. if they are really around. IM telling you its not reasonable to have someone come into a system and cloak and then go to work, that isnt risk vs reward at all. Thats ZERO Risk for untold amount of economic damage. If the best thing you can come back at me with is "well local lets you see them" then your not reading. But you also have local giving the local economy zero risk, as regarding PvP vulnerability. Short of a blob overwhelming the system, your miners and ratters are never at any risk. You misrepresent the cloaked vessel causing this damage, when it is in fact the stalemate between both sides. It is a failure of objectivity to not place an equal amount of blame on the pilots hiding from combat, enabled by the same local that tells the hunting pilots that they are present to be found. The solution requires a sacrifice from both sides, not just one. And giving up your ability to cyno jam a system/ Giving the cloaky a huge amount of time to leave the system ahead of time/ Making this cost around a billion a month to jam the system Isnt giving enough up? I will say 1 thing tho, you atleast offer Constructive Feedback <3
Daichi Yamato Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire 587	Posted - 2013.02.05 19:20:00 - [12] - Quote Trespasser wrote: This system has many draw backs... You have your system open to cynos so anyone can come in if they want to, and since using this mod will cost the same if not more a month then the cyno jammer most alliances wont spam it IT also gives time for cloakys to leave the system.. if they are really around. IM telling you its not reasonable to have someone come into a system and cloak and then go to work, that isnt risk vs reward at all. Thats ZERO Risk for untold amount of economic damage. If the best thing you can come back at me with is "well local lets you see them" then your not reading. i think ur the one not reading my friend. its just as unreasonable that a PvE player can operate alone and with impunity in what is meant to be the most dangerous space in the game. But it is so safe in fact, that it is often referred to as being safer than low sec, and sometimes even hi-sec. true the cloaker has no risk. but neither does the PvE player. hence the balance. no isk is made or lost on either side. note- u have not lost isk, u just have not made any. ur system would remove the cloakers defence, but it would not remove the PvE player from the POS. so the cloaker would be exposed to PvP gangs but the PvE player would not. The cloaker is routed and the PvE player continues to make money, knowing that he can safe up for as long as he wants, but the cloaker must eventually leave or be destroyed. so ur idea is most definitely imbalanced
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 13946	Posted - 2013.02.05 19:21:00 - [13] - Quote Trespasser wrote: And giving up your ability to cyno jam a system/ Giving the cloaky a huge amount of time to leave the system ahead of time/ Making this cost around a billion a month to jam the system Isnt giving enough up? Giving up what exactly? The power of surprise and actually any chance to overcome local and it's intel you mean? Vote Malcanis for CSM 8
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 1897	Posted - 2013.02.05 19:23:00 - [14] - Quote Trespasser wrote: IM telling you its not reasonable to have someone come into a system and cloak and then go to work, that isnt risk vs reward at all. Thats ZERO Risk for untold amount of economic damage. Two things: 1. It is also not reasonable for the attacker to HAVE to afk cloak just to get some kills. When local's perfect intel goes away and/or randoms gain the ability to sneak up and nab some ratters/miners in 0.0 systems... then and ONLY then will cloaking need a nerf. As things stand right now, they are balanced. "Total presence awareness countered by total location concealment." 2. The economic damage is caused by YOU, not the guy cloaking. If you choose to not undock, then you don't make any ISK. As simple as that. Trespasser wrote: If the best thing you can come back at me with is "well local lets you see them" then your not reading. No... we've just established the cause of the problem. And it will not go away if you nerf the "symptom." People will just switch to use something else to do the same thing. For example: you can set an interceptor up to perma-run its MWD and some ECCM mods... plug in the implant set that increases your sensor strength (or the one that reduces your sig radius) to make yourself virtually unprobable... blitz into a 0.0 system, safe up, point yourself in a random direction, turn on your MWD, go afk burning at about 5000 m/sec. Congrats... you now have a new form of "afk cloaking." Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
Daichi Yamato Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire 587	Posted - 2013.02.05 19:23:00 - [15] - Quote Trespasser wrote: Nikk Narrel wrote: Trespasser wrote: This system has many draw backs... You have your system open to cynos so anyone can come in if they want to, and since using this mod will cost the same if not more a month then the cyno jammer most alliances wont spam it IT also gives time for cloakys to leave the system.. if they are really around. IM telling you its not reasonable to have someone come into a system and cloak and then go to work, that isnt risk vs reward at all. Thats ZERO Risk for untold amount of economic damage. If the best thing you can come back at me with is "well local lets you see them" then your not reading. But you also have local giving the local economy zero risk, as regarding PvP vulnerability. Short of a blob overwhelming the system, your miners and ratters are never at any risk. You misrepresent the cloaked vessel causing this damage, when it is in fact the stalemate between both sides. It is a failure of objectivity to not place an equal amount of blame on the pilots hiding from combat, enabled by the same local that tells the hunting pilots that they are present to be found. The solution requires a sacrifice from both sides, not just one. And giving up your ability to cyno jam a system/ Giving the cloaky a huge amount of time to leave the system ahead of time/ Making this cost around a billion a month to jam the system Isnt giving enough up? I will say 1 thing tho, you atleast offer Constructive Feedback <3 they are quite trivial costs. and if the cloaker is forced to leave, why isnt there a way to force the PvE player to leave?
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Unclaimed. 1249	Posted - 2013.02.05 19:25:00 - [16] - Quote Trespasser wrote: And giving up your ability to cyno jam a system/ Giving the cloaky a huge amount of time to leave the system ahead of time/ Making this cost around a billion a month to jam the system Isnt giving enough up? I will say 1 thing tho, you atleast offer Constructive Feedback <3 Whether the blob comes in by a titan bridge or the regular gate, nothing short of this blob of ships can effectively threaten the PvE pilots. They can get safe before the first hostile gets on grid, every time. Your system will give them the ability to clear the system of all hostiles, effectively restoring operation to the economy. Stalemate over, winner PvE defenders. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.
Trespasser S0utherN Comfort Tribal Band 4	Posted - 2013.02.05 19:33:00 - [17] - Quote Nikk Narrel wrote: Trespasser wrote: And giving up your ability to cyno jam a system/ Giving the cloaky a huge amount of time to leave the system ahead of time/ Making this cost around a billion a month to jam the system Isnt giving enough up? I will say 1 thing tho, you atleast offer Constructive Feedback <3 Whether the blob comes in by a titan bridge or the regular gate, nothing short of this blob of ships can effectively threaten the PvE pilots. They can get safe before the first hostile gets on grid, every time. Your system will give them the ability to clear the system of all hostiles, effectively restoring operation to the economy. Stalemate over, winner PvE defenders. I see your point, but you dont think the alliance that owns and is entrenched in that system/region should have a slight advantage? And Again, it wouldnt be such a problem if people didnt abuse the mechanic. If someone is at there computer and wants to sit in a system cloaked it really doesnt bother me. Its these people who think its a legit Tactic to cloak in a system and then go to work.. your not even playing the game and this is what i want gone.. The only reason people hate on that is because normal humans dont want to sit in the same system cloaked for 12 hours a day every day, its boring. so thats why people log in and cloak and go to bed etc etc.
Trespasser S0utherN Comfort Tribal Band 4	Posted - 2013.02.05 19:34:00 - [18] - Quote Quote: they are quite trivial costs. and if the cloaker is forced to leave, why isnt there a way to force the PvE player to leave? You do have a way to force the pvers to leave, Take the space... They wont be ratting if you take that space
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 1117	Posted - 2013.02.05 19:46:00 - [19] - Quote Trespasser wrote: I started put this in another thread but i thought it would be better for everyone to see it and offer Constructive feedback Yea cause another nerf afk cloaking thread is always good. Trespasser wrote: i just really hate this AFK cloaky aspect.. I have no problem with people raiding supply lines and causing problems but logging in and going to work does none of these objectives other then to shutdown a system for No risk to the cloaky pilot Geez, when will people get it. The AFK cloaker is not shutting down the system. You are, by deciding that the afk cloaker is too big of a threat. Amazingly there are corps and alliances that manage to still get things done even in the face of an afk cloaker. Of course they actually have balls.
Mag's the united Negative Ten. 13946	Posted - 2013.02.05 19:50:00 - [20] - Quote Trespasser wrote: Nikk Narrel wrote: Trespasser wrote: And giving up your ability to cyno jam a system/ Giving the cloaky a huge amount of time to leave the system ahead of time/ Making this cost around a billion a month to jam the system Isnt giving enough up? I will say 1 thing tho, you atleast offer Constructive Feedback <3 Whether the blob comes in by a titan bridge or the regular gate, nothing short of this blob of ships can effectively threaten the PvE pilots. They can get safe before the first hostile gets on grid, every time. Your system will give them the ability to clear the system of all hostiles, effectively restoring operation to the economy. Stalemate over, winner PvE defenders. I see your point, but you dont think the alliance that owns and is entrenched in that system/region should have a slight advantage? And Again, it wouldnt be such a problem if people didnt abuse the mechanic. If someone is at there computer and wants to sit in a system cloaked it really doesnt bother me. Its these people who think its a legit Tactic to cloak in a system and then go to work.. your not even playing the game and this is what i want gone.. The only reason people hate on that is because normal humans dont want to sit in the same system cloaked for 12 hours a day every day, its boring. so thats why people log in and cloak and go to bed etc etc. What mechanic are they using, to interact with you whilst AFK? What mechanic is being abused? Vote Malcanis for CSM 8
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Unclaimed. 1254	Posted - 2013.02.05 19:58:00 - [21] - Quote Trespasser wrote: I see your point, but you dont think the alliance that owns and is entrenched in that system/region should have a slight advantage? And Again, it wouldnt be such a problem if people didnt abuse the mechanic. If someone is at there computer and wants to sit in a system cloaked it really doesnt bother me. Its these people who think its a legit Tactic to cloak in a system and then go to work.. your not even playing the game and this is what i want gone.. The only reason people hate on that is because normal humans dont want to sit in the same system cloaked for 12 hours a day every day, its boring. so thats why people log in and cloak and go to bed etc etc. Every POS and outpost in the system reflects an advantage. The stark and absolute nature of this situation, where you have PvE pilots able to evade risk, against PvP pilots able to do the same, requires the absolutes to be torn down on both sides for balance. Not just the cloaked side. Remove that which is absolute for intel gathering, and you will clear the absolute nature from both sides. Don't kid yourself, local is used by both sides equally here. It is the defender's POS's and Outposts creating a sense of ownership, instead of the superior combat presence. And no, this would not hand the win to the cloaking side either, it would affect both equally. It simply would not be the dumbed down version people have come to expect, by requiring strategy and effort from all sides. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.
Daichi Yamato Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire 592	Posted - 2013.02.05 19:59:00 - [22] - Quote Trespasser wrote: You do have a way to force the pvers to leave, Take the space... They wont be ratting if you take that space i'd agree that putting assets in a system should give a defender a home advantage, and they already do. but they are invulnerable to anything but a full scale attack. that doesn't sound like the attacking of supply lines we were talking about before. in fact there is no way to attack behind enemy lines, there are only blob sized assaults and the grind of POS bashing. add that to the fact that ratting systems are well behind the frontlines and reinforcement timers give them plenty of time to GTFO, there is little chance the PvE'ers will be cornered so quickly they might have to defend themselves and actually lose something. i also believe cloaking should not be undetectable, it just shouldn't be blatantly obvious when they are around (for one, they are cloaked). personally i mixture of nerfing local and cloaks together is my desired outcome.
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Unclaimed. 1254	Posted - 2013.02.05 20:03:00 - [23] - Quote Daichi Yamato wrote: i also believe cloaking should not be undetectable, it just shouldn't be blatantly obvious when they are around (for one, they are cloaked). personally i mixture of nerfing local and cloaks together is my desired outcome. Many who cloak would not consider that a nerf at all. Meta gaming aside, we don't consider the ability to be a part of a stalemate situation the ideal game play experience. Being hunted in exchange for the ability to hunt is what many of us want. Not just stare at our prey in the goldfish bowl that a POS is so reminiscent of. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.
Daichi Yamato Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire 592	Posted - 2013.02.05 20:05:00 - [24] - Quote Nikk Narrel wrote: Not just stare at our prey in the goldfish bowl that a POS is so reminiscent of. ha ha
Trespasser S0utherN Comfort Tribal Band 4	Posted - 2013.02.05 20:17:00 - [25] - Quote I would Even go far enough to say... the mod is 1billion isk a month in sov cost... The upgrade is quite big and 500mill You can only have 2 of them per region AND You cant have a cyno beacon or Jump Bridge anchored in the same system as the cloak jammer. So now, you forcing people to hand light cynos AND They have to use the stargate to get there... If that isnt enough to give up then i really have no idea what to tell you
ShahFluffers Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance 1900	Posted - 2013.02.05 20:25:00 - [26] - Quote Trespasser wrote: If that isnt enough to give up then i really have no idea what to tell you Good. Because it isn't. It "fixes" nothing. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective.
Daichi Yamato Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire 595	Posted - 2013.02.05 20:58:00 - [27] - Quote Trespasser wrote: I would Even go far enough to say... the mod is 1billion isk a month in sov cost... The upgrade is quite big and 500mill You can only have 2 of them per region AND You cant have a cyno beacon or Jump Bridge anchored in the same system as the cloak jammer. So now, you forcing people to hand light cynos AND They have to use the stargate to get there... If that isnt enough to give up then i really have no idea what to tell you the only way to balance this kind of idea would be to make it so expensive it would be impractical to use, at which point, why have it at all? as long as it can be used to make a system rattable AND unassailable thanks to local, it will be like giving free isk to PvE players. and as mentioned before, it would not stop afk inties. someone would have to come up with a POS module that increases scanning strength and time. then the afk'ers find a new way, so a new POS module would have to be made. and it all just becomes an escalation. tackle the root cause, tackle the problem.
Sura Sadiva Entropic Tactical Crew 234	Posted - 2013.02.05 21:40:00 - [28] - Quote Trespasser wrote: I see your point, but you dont think the alliance that owns and is entrenched in that system/region should have a slight advantage? If a single neutral cloacked (and even AFK!) is enough to shutdown that system this means you don't "own" a ****.
Trespasser S0utherN Comfort Tribal Band 4	Posted - 2013.02.05 21:45:00 - [29] - Quote The difference with the Forever MWD Inty/Thrasher with a hard to scan down setup is.. You can just point your D-Scan towards them and watch. If they move you leave. Also honestly 1b a month for the mod isnt that bad for 0.0 alliances And with the changes to no JB or Cyno beacon, you can cloaky the fk out of the systems around it to your hearts content and **** all the ratters moving to and fro
Daichi Yamato Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire 595	Posted - 2013.02.05 22:16:00 - [30] - Quote Trespasser wrote: The difference with the Forever MWD Inty/Thrasher with a hard to scan down setup is.. You can just point your D-Scan towards them and watch. But atleast you have the ability To scan them down/watch them on D-scan... And you know if they are active because they will start looking for something to gank vs the system we have now where you can cloaky camp without even being at the computer Also honestly 1b a month for the mod isnt that bad for 0.0 alliances And with the changes to no JB or Cyno beacon, you can cloaky the fk out of the systems around it to your hearts content and **** all the ratters moving to and fro 1bil a month is pennies. i was thinking one tril a day...then it might get used as much as it should...never. ur trying to add risk to cloaking, but i dnt see anything that adds risk to PvE'ing in null sec. justifying riskless PvE with an upkeep cost and the possibilities of cyno's (which is pointless when the target ship is POS'd anyways) does nothing to solve the issue. why should u be able to avoid PvP indefinitely when ur in null? its freaking null sec!

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