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anyone else finding missile boats useless?

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Strikeclone	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:14:00 - [1] had an interesting fight today with and enyo, i was in my ceberus. All the new missile skills at 3 or higher adn lvl 5 cruise missile and lvl 2 cruise spec, also had lvl 5 crusier and lvl 3 HAC. I had the enyo at 6km range, webbed -85%, target painter tech2 on him, and warp scrambled. Arbalest heavies accross the board, my scourge missiels doing 13.7 damage, his return fire doing on average 27 per hit. By the time i had him into armour he was already well into my armour. I think he was armour tanking i was trying shield tank. He was gradually winning the fight when 3 or 4 of his mates turn up in tempests and other BS. Does this seem right to you? :P Admiral Strikeclone CinC, Caldari Assault Group "Peace through the application of superior firepower"
The 0ne	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:18:00 - [2] Originally by: Strikeclone had an interesting fight today with and enyo, i was in my ceberus. All the new missile skills at 3 or higher adn lvl 5 cruise missile and lvl 2 cruise spec, also had lvl 5 crusier and lvl 3 HAC. I had the enyo at 6km range, webbed -85%, target painter tech2 on him, and warp scrambled. Arbalest heavies accross the board, my scourge missiels doing 13.7 damage, his return fire doing on average 27 per hit. By the time i had him into armour he was already well into my armour. I think he was armour tanking i was trying shield tank. He was gradually winning the fight when 3 or 4 of his mates turn up in tempests and other BS. Does this seem right to you? :P try havoks next time or even beter asault launchers
Nyphur	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:19:00 - [3] Everyone is talking about their cerberus fighting an enyo. Any WHY is it that every one of them uses kinetic missiles against it when kinetic is its highest resistance? The enyo has an incredibly small sig radius, a huge kinetic resistance and at 6km, your missiles don't accelerate enough. I recall hearing that missiles deal more damage the faster they go now. Which means they're useless for short range combat like this.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:21:00 - [4] "I had the enyo at 6km range (..) my scourge missiels doing 13.7 damage, his return fire doing on average 27 per hit. (..) Does this seem right to you? :P" Yes. (enyo has base resistance to kinetic damage at 85% for shield, 83.75% armour, and 33m signature radius. EM against shield and explosive against armour are her weak spots)
Jet Max	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:22:00 - [5] Originally by: Strikeclone Does this seem right to you? :P Yes! do you remember turret users whining about their crapy guns especialy Gallente race? well i think its about time to taste same S**T and train skills, not to lvl 3 but to lvl 5... all of them! like rest of us turret users do. 'Ave it!
Strikeclone	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:26:00 - [6] all valid points, the reason i had scourge in was that Caldari bonuses are applied to kinetic damage.Dont forget tho that cerberus has its own awesome resistances, yet the enyo was doing double the damamge to me. Just seems wrong thats all, HAC cant kill a AF, even when every conceivable criteria that improves my damage applies, I wonder if we might see a bit of un-nerfing or re-balancing occuring soon. I gather this is a common complaint. Admiral Strikeclone CinC, Caldari Assault Group "Peace through the application of superior firepower"
Jagaroth	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:31:00 - [7] What doesn't seem right is that certain Caldari ships still have bonuses in a single damage type. This might have been justifiable before the patch, but now that there are missile accuracy skills the bonuses need to be changed. Imagine what would happen if the Amarrian HAC pilots were told their ships could only specialise in whichever crystal was least effective against Minmater... It should be something like +5% explosion velocity per level or whatever it is that effects missile damage. ------
Reite	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:32:00 - [8] if u did 13.7 dmg with kinetic missles that means u would do about 90-110 dmg each had u used explosive missles and if he didnt have a hardener on. does that seem right? Why did u make this post? to show that u lack skills as a pvp player istead of ingame skills?
Reite	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:34:00 - [9] Originally by: Strikeclone all valid points, the reason i had scourge in was that Caldari bonuses are applied to kinetic damage.Dont forget tho that cerberus has its own awesome resistances, yet the enyo was doing double the damamge to me. Just seems wrong thats all, HAC cant kill a AF, even when every conceivable criteria that improves my damage applies, I wonder if we might see a bit of un-nerfing or re-balancing occuring soon. I gather this is a common complaint. I couldnt kill a wolf in my longrange apoc with radio crystals, do i come here and whine? no.
Strikeclone	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:35:00 - [10] Originally by: Jet Max Originally by: Strikeclone Does this seem right to you? :P Yes! do you remember turret users whining about their crapy guns especialy Gallente race? well i think its about time to taste same S**T and train skills, not to lvl 3 but to lvl 5... all of them! like rest of us turret users do. 'Ave it! Hmm smack talk not withstanding, I have a valid point, all those new skills are at lvl 3 and i have been training them from day one, we are not talking about torps or cruise here we are talking heavy missiles under all the best conditions. Also of course is the fact that turrets have their ability to hit changed, but when they hit their damamge is full. Missiles may hit automatically as long as the target is in range but missile users just cant do enough damamge atm. Unless they are shooting at a target larger than the class of the weapon. Whilst i was an advocate of missile chages in some form, it does seem that atm they are rendered quite useless. I doubt that a turret user sitting at his optimal range with his cruiser with every advantage avaliable to him with skills at lvl 3 would have little trouble annihilating a frigate webbed and scrambled and target painted. Hmm something to think about, is it not possible that the powers that be have over nerfed missiles to cure the 3month nub raven billionaire senario? Hopefully this is the case as I doubt those extra levels of skill will make so much difference, and extra 4% of 13 damamge is still way below what the enyo was doing to me. Please contrutive replys only. My turrets hurt once now your missile launchers hunt type posts don't add anything to the discussion. Thank you guys :) Admiral Strikeclone CinC, Caldari Assault Group "Peace through the application of superior firepower"
Strikeclone	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:36:00 - [11] Edited by: Strikeclone on 16/07/2005 18:37:47 Originally by: Reite Why did u make this post? to show that u lack skills as a pvp player istead of ingame skills? ROFL, sorry I thought i was asking a relevant question in a reasoned manner, looking for intelligent responses. Have no fear sir the authorities have been informed that the missiing link has been found alive and well on this thread. (no offense to Missing Link corp) :P Admiral Strikeclone CinC, Caldari Assault Group "Peace through the application of superior firepower"
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:37:00 - [12] Edited by: j0sephine on 16/07/2005 18:37:50 "What doesn't seem right is that certain Caldari ships still have bonuses in a single damage type." Well, the Amarr get the bonus to em + therm damage and often not even that. The Gallente get the bonus to therm + kinetic. The Minmatar get more flexible bonus, but they're screwed anyway :s The Caldari get bonus to single damage type, but their other bonus is the ability to switch the damage to one that's most suitable at given moment. It's pretty even in the end.
Bad'Boy	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:39:00 - [13] Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 16/07/2005 18:37:50 "What doesn't seem right is that certain Caldari ships still have bonuses in a single damage type." Well, the Amarr get the bonus to em + therm damage and often not even that. The Gallente get the bonus to therm + kinetic. The Minmatar get more flexible bonus, but they're screwed anyway :s The Caldari get bonus to single damage type, but their other bonus is the ability to switch the damage to one that's most suitable at given moment. It's pretty even in the end. with tech II ammo caldari will still get bonus to 1, while other can do all 4 damage types TAKE WHAT YOU CAN, GIVE NOTHING BACK!!!
Bad'Boy	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:40:00 - [14] Originally by: Reite if u did 13.7 dmg with kinetic missles that means u would do about 90-110 dmg each had u used explosive missles and if he didnt have a hardener on. does that seem right? Why did u make this post? to show that u lack skills as a pvp player istead of ingame skills? omg dude, get lost TAKE WHAT YOU CAN, GIVE NOTHING BACK!!!
Strikeclone	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:41:00 - [15] Originally by: j0sephine The Caldari get bonus to single damage type, but their other bonus is the ability to switch the damage to one that's most suitable at given moment. It's pretty even in the end. Hmm fair point and I appreciate what you are saying, but what im trying to point out is that we were both sitting there at point blank ranges doing damamge against our respective ressistance types and a frigate sized ship was doing double damamge of the larger ship. Does it really make sense that an AF can kill a HAC. Smaller damage against larger targets regardless of source doesnt appear to be reduced much. I wonder if smaller ship damage was capped against larger targets if some semblence of fair play could be restored. Just a thought Admiral Strikeclone CinC, Caldari Assault Group "Peace through the application of superior firepower"
Reite	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:42:00 - [16] Originally by: Strikeclone Edited by: Strikeclone on 16/07/2005 18:37:47 Originally by: Reite Why did u make this post? to show that u lack skills as a pvp player istead of ingame skills? ROFL, sorry I thought i was asking a relevant question in a reasoned manner, looking for intelligent responses. Have no fear sir the authorities have been informed that the missiing link has been found alive and well on this thread. (no offense to Missing Link corp) :P I made a point. Instead of answering that valid point you choose to write 4 lines of bullcrap. And you call me stupid?
Bad'Boy	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:43:00 - [17] Originally by: Strikeclone Originally by: j0sephine The Caldari get bonus to single damage type, but their other bonus is the ability to switch the damage to one that's most suitable at given moment. It's pretty even in the end. Hmm fair point and I appreciate what you are saying, but what im trying to point out is that we were both sitting there at point blank ranges doing damamge against our respective ressistance types and a frigate sized ship was doing double damamge of the larger ship. Does it really make sense that an AF can kill a HAC. Smaller damage against larger targets regardless of source doesnt appear to be reduced much. I wonder if smaller ship damage was capped against larger targets if some semblence of fair play could be restored. Just a thought caldari do less damage then most, thats just it.. TAKE WHAT YOU CAN, GIVE NOTHING BACK!!!
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.07.16 18:51:00 - [18] "Hmm fair point and I appreciate what you are saying, but what im trying to point out is that we were both sitting there at point blank ranges doing damamge against our respective ressistance types and a frigate sized ship was doing double damamge of the larger ship." I understand, but the thing is, you basically handed the fight to the opponent by sitting in their fire range and trying to shoot them with missiles that get ~4x damage reduction right off the bat due to the target's size, before even the damage resistances kick in. It was one of those situations where switching to the right damage type would outweight the bonus you get to kinetic missiles. It just shows that in what's pretty much optimal situation for her, the assault frigate stands a good chance against the heavy assault ship, if that assault cruiser chooses to not use advantages that's at their disposal... is that such a bad thing, really..?
Bad'Boy	Posted - 2005.07.16 19:09:00 - [19] Originally by: j0sephine "Hmm fair point and I appreciate what you are saying, but what im trying to point out is that we were both sitting there at point blank ranges doing damamge against our respective ressistance types and a frigate sized ship was doing double damamge of the larger ship." I understand, but the thing is, you basically handed the fight to the opponent by sitting in their fire range and trying to shoot them with missiles that get ~4x damage reduction right off the bat due to the target's size, before even the damage resistances kick in. It was one of those situations where switching to the right damage type would outweight the bonus you get to kinetic missiles. It just shows that in what's pretty much optimal situation for her, the assault frigate stands a good chance against the heavy assault ship, if that assault cruiser chooses to not use advantages that's at their disposal... is that such a bad thing, really..? any AF would normaly get them their ass hanged by any HAC exept for eagle and cerberus TAKE WHAT YOU CAN, GIVE NOTHING BACK!!!
Strikeclone	Posted - 2005.07.16 19:18:00 - [20] What im saying and correct me if im wrong here, but smaller ships are doing more damage to larger ships. turrets or missiles both. I can see a point that those who choose to fly smaller ships need to have a chance of survival against larger opponents, but at the moment frigate sized ships can apparently own 1v1 ships that are larger. And by means of thise size not so much their skills. I would ahve thought that the logic of big guns versus small targets equals less hit but those that hit hit hard is ok. But a logical extension of that theory is that smaller guns hit more often but do alot less damage against larger targets. X-wing vs stardestroyer, hits alot, very little damage Stardestroyer vs X-wing, hits seldom, very high damage Something like this would restore some fairness to those that chose to pilot larger vessels. The enyo did not have to work for that kill, and although it was his BS mates that did the killing he would ahve done for me in the end. Apart from changing ammo types there was not a single thing i couldhave done to improve that situation for damage as a missile user. It doesnt seem right thats all. In the same way that battleships such as the raven shouldn't be able to own frigs with torpedoes at 135km it isnt right that frig ships should own larger vessels. This is hte crux of what I'm saying, Eve has infinte senarios where we can all justify a situation. But generally a single frig shoudl ahve no chance, packs however... Admiral Strikeclone CinC, Caldari Assault Group "Peace through the application of superior firepower"
Strikeclone	Posted - 2005.07.16 19:19:00 - [21] Originally by: Reite if u did 13.7 dmg with kinetic missles that means u would do about 90-110 dmg each had u used explosive missles and if he didnt have a hardener on. does that seem right? Why did u make this post? to show that u lack skills as a pvp player istead of ingame skills? Go away adults are talking about grown up stuff. Telly tubbies would be else where :P Insults and smack are not welcome here sir Admiral Strikeclone CinC, Caldari Assault Group "Peace through the application of superior firepower"
darmoth	Posted - 2005.07.16 20:17:00 - [22] being missles from all my tests with heavy missles about same dmg as a 250 mm rail gun on avg the bonus to rapid launch needs increased to reduce missle rate of fire down to equal level of turrets rate of fire. and lower missles m3 to allow you to carry more missles.
Rawthorm	Posted - 2005.07.16 20:29:00 - [23] Is everyone overlooking the fact that he also had the enyo webbed and painted? This is apauling and had it been a deimos on the Enyo, it would have been dead within seconds, resistances or not.
Jorev	Posted - 2005.07.16 21:13:00 - [24] Heavy missiles are the most nerfed missiles after the patch. By extension, I wouldn't undock in a Cerberus nor would I buy one for 80m for the foreseeable future. Based on the missle-nerf-cheerleaders comments I suppose that nerf worked as intended so don't expect the situation be rectified anytime soon. SO wish I trained Minny/Amarr/Gall Cruiser5 instead of Caldari. But such are MMORPGs. I symphatise with the OP, but truth be told he should know better than undocking in a Cerberus. Everyone who owns one should know how much it sucks.
Sadist	Posted - 2005.07.16 21:14:00 - [25] Quote: This is apauling and had it been a deimos on the Enyo, it would have been dead within seconds, resistances or not. [sarcasm] Of course it would. Dont forget to take your meds on the way out. [/sarcasm] --------------- Originally by: Dark Shikari "One Trit to rule them all, One Trit to find them, One Trit to bring them all, and in the veldspar bind them"
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.07.16 21:23:00 - [26] Originally by: Rawthorm Is everyone overlooking the fact that he also had the enyo webbed and painted? This is apauling and had it been a deimos on the Enyo, it would have been dead within seconds, resistances or not. For one, even a Deimos takes a while to smash down an Enyo. Second, that Enyo can only do it within 10km. The Cerebrus can start firing at MUCH longer ranges. Rails? Heh! Eagles are nasty as heck, though. Popping enemy inties at 100km with one volley... "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Taraq Nord	Posted - 2005.07.16 21:59:00 - [27] A possible saving grace for cruiser-sized missile boats is the assault launcher. The lower damage done by light missiles is partly compensated for by the higher rate of fire. Overall they do 3/4's of the gross damage done by heavy missile launchers. With the velocity (and flight time) bonuses the Caracal (and Cerebus) get, light missiles can fly quite a distance. And of course lights have much less difficulty delivering a large proportion of their net damage. The low fitting requirements leave plenty of grid and CPU for building a tank. Anyhow, I suggest that fitting assault launchers isn't such an evil (although you're definitely not going to win a prize for DoT compared to turrets).
Gariuys	Posted - 2005.07.16 23:04:00 - [28] Here's a constructive reply for your threat. 75% if not more of your problem comes from using the wrong ammunition for your target, which is the first if not the only player skill a missile user needs. 2nd constructive thing, your original post mentions your cruise missile skills.... when using heavy missiles, now I don't wanna sound all too negative, but ehm, you do understand that those don't really help heavy missiles right? ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
Ranger 1	Posted - 2005.07.17 00:11:00 - [29] Thank you, I was about to mention that. That's not a moon... that's my POS
Strikeclone	Posted - 2005.07.17 00:11:00 - [30] Originally by: Gariuys 2nd constructive thing, your original post mentions your cruise missile skills.... when using heavy missiles, now I don't wanna sound all too negative, but ehm, you do understand that those don't really help heavy missiles right? Thats a typo should read heavy missiles etc etc, i was setting up a raven to use cruise missiles at the tim eof posting i had cruise on the brain :P thx for the replys Admiral Strikeclone CinC, Caldari Assault Group "Peace through the application of superior firepower"

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