Take back your voice in the CSM!

CCP has offered us a representative system to voice our desires and concerns. Votes are cast for individual platforms proposing several game improvements favorable to our community. The people behind that platforms might deliver or not, and the trust put behind them is usually reflected in the number of votes.

I am giving you something different.

With the advent of new technologies, steps to to make your every vote count, steps toward direct democracy can be taken.
I am giving you the system of Liquid Democracy, where every player can directly vote for every single issue put or to be put forward in the CSM. In simple words, an electronic voting system that allows direct votes or every topic, but also includes the possibility to delegate votes.

This system responds to the very core of game life: true freedom

Whether you are one individual that is concerned about the future of EVE, a corp CEO or alliance leader, you can vote for every single issue instead of being offered just limited consultations.

One player one vote. You trust the alliance or corp leader, then let him have your vote in the system.

You trust somebody else? Vote for me and you can then let the best people voice your concerns!

This way alliance leaders and good players will keep doing what they do best, while me as your CSM representative will be just your voice, with have clear support in voicing com unity concerns to CCP.


Choose yourself for CSM representative!

Vote Night Beagle for CSM!

The direct democracy idea worked in ancient Greece where citizens decided on the city issues.

@Doc Hollidai Please define the term relevant corps.

why then do we need you?

I heartily support your approach, especially since, as with the greeks, I am going to assume voting will be restricted to high class (c5 or better?) males (never trust a woman's opinion) in pvp corps (Athenian voting required a background of military service.)

:thumbsup:

I too support this.

We don't need a democracy

in your system why don't i just send a computer and cut out the middle man

@Casirio

In fact we do not need to pretend to have elections but as you said CCP decided this way :)
In EVE we have clear reflections of the way human society organizes itself: dictatorships, meritocracy, democracy and even anarchy. What is the best system? ...

@Phaderift
You your question is in line with the one put by Doc Hollidai, however more informed and less diplomatic :)
My knowledge about EVE is the one of a 2 year old player and the interaction with others is making me confident I got what it is needed. Strange that you mention C5's as one year ago I was in the same C5 as your corp, and in the same alliance, :) however the answer is not in the man, is in the system.


Why don't you? This is what I am offering.
I do not need to be the guru of WH space, to be the leader of the largest alliance, have the larges number of friends, be backed by the best PVP players or whatever external factor one may think it makes the man right for the job.
As I stated from the beginning, let the PVP pvp, alliance leaders do their job and electronic systems help us to expres the community views.

This is not a diplomatic thread this is politics, check friendships, and pleasantries at the door, there is a job to do.

Phaderift [Given your killboard is nearly blank what do you do in game? after 2 years what aspects do you consider yourself well versed in?]

What does that have to with anything?

Really?
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_external_id=90012007

Phaderift
Security Status 4.6Official Collector for the Thukker Childrens Fund, Forum Troll and Gas ***** Extrodinaire

Let agree to disagree :) this is not politics, social networking, or a job. It's having fun while moving pixels on the screen.
It's a place where there are more than one way to skin the cat, and this includes CSM. Whatever big alliance supports one guy, or whatever connections he has now, NDA states that he cannot communicate to one group something that he cannot communicate to everyone.
Therefore this is my platform and advantage: to allow everyone to discuss and push from the community towards CCP the proposals generally agreed. To give everybody the confidence that whatsoever things can be said, they will be said in public and no player group will be treated differently.

while not 100% relevent i checked yoru kill board i see no kills since august last year .

no losses either till jan this year and feb. part of me thinks this screams alt but i am sure you can enlighten us on yoru killboard.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=692598

while not 100% relevent i checked yoru kill board i see no kills since august last year .

no losses either till jan this year and feb. part of me thinks this screams alt but i am sure you can enlighten us on yoru killboard.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=692598

I can add to this a little.
Insidious Design was going through a bit of turmoil at that time. When joing an alliance (Elysian Empire) we lost a lot of members and a lot were busy with real life. Then when we struck out on our own again when we were engaged by an overwhelming force which again put a hit on our member count. But we are rebuilding and intend to stay around for a long time.

Also remember this, Insidious Design was once on the list of Notable Wormhole Space Alliances and Corporations and Night Beagle was right there with us.

LOL
no

I would make a horrible CSM!

LOL
no

I would make a horrible CSM!

Doc Hollidai

You don't.

Phaderift [Given your killboard is nearly blank what do you do in game? after 2 years what aspects do you consider yourself well versed in?]

What does that have to with anything?

Really?
http://eve-kill.net/?a=pilot_detail&plt_external_id=90012007

Phaderift
Security Status 4.6Official Collector for the Thukker Childrens Fund, Forum Troll and Gas ***** Extrodinaire

I have the best killboard in wspace.

Vote me for CSM so I can achieve a new level of bitter vetness.

RENGAS for CSM, we can give him that magic computer that takes in peoples opinions and sorts them. then he can make them all reflect this new level of bitter

Also remember this, Insidious Design was once on the list of Notable Wormhole Space Alliances and Corporations and Night Beagle was right there with us.

It is my opinion that a null sec carebear mentality is beginning to infiltrate the WH way of life.

I would still appreciate an answer to my question.

I find that my candidacy raised some interesting issues. I will not comment on sings and grudges, although I will on what causes them and how this is preventing better gameplay for everyone.

It was said repeatedly that candidates should come form large alliances, with various degree of motivating this claim.
It is my opinion that a null sec carebear mentality is beginning to infiltrate the WH way of life. I concur to the opinion that being at some point in large organizations, experiencing c5-6, but also living in smaller class WH, are necessary step in acquiring first hand knowledge.
I have that. I've been there, and I've been silent, listening, watching, learning how to enjoy the game and how to use the numbers for that. Maybe I was unknown when I posted the topic, but now I believe my killboard and employment history is common knowledge. Weather one considers it enough or not, that is a matter of personal taste and opinion, and everyone is entitled to have and express its opinion.
This brings me to the "large alliance issue".
Can one group of players no matter how large claim that it is in possession of the absolute and unique solutions?
Can one claim that candidates must absolutely come from those alliances? Can one contest the right of any player, even from a one man corp to candidate and present its opinions?
All animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others. George Orwell, Animal Farm (1945)
As I see it the whole thing with WH representative is becoming a a** kis***g contest ... and while we have our share of people playing competently playing this game, I am in for another trip.
I was expecting this: to judge the man even before looking at the idea, grandeur dreams about controlling others thoughts and actions, refusal to accept responsibility and preference for the all knowing leader figure.
I was not disappointed.
However, I am here to fight and win with a platform based on Liquid Feedback.
Therefore, my comment on preventing highjacks of votes on the platform is the following: API verified, WH corp identity check.


Rocking the boat,

Night Beagle

PS> I'm no alt :)

@chris elliot Phaderift pointed correctly. My fault that I did not marked appropriately as I've done for all other replies. Good point on establishing who is a WH corp, but surely not a obstacle.

Choose me because I do not claim to have all the answers, but instead I promise to share and relay.

@chris elliot All CSM candidates should in fact aim to deliver the same thing to the community, the difference being in the way they are foreseeing to do that.

The interview with Xander can be found now on:

http://crossingzebras.com/post/43036348761/csm8nightbeagle

Many thanks!

@Sid Hudgens> That is a perfectly valid reason

I actually listened to this and am now not sure if you have massively trolled us all with this platform? If not you can't be serious. WTF.

@Two Step: glad you like it (phun intended) The sistem will be there no matter the election results, however without somebody to bring the discussion to CSM its efficiency will be lower.

I think you guys are missing the point.

The liquid democracy gives you what the players want and expects the CSM to fight for. If something else is brought up that is not on the list then why would your CSM fight for it? He could offer an opinion but that would only be his opinion not yours.

Night Beagle would be coming onto the board with a mandate created by the players for the players. Yes, he would only be the messenger of what the players want, but it would be your decision. Or do you want an individual making your decisions on what is important and then slugging it off because that CSM thinks he knows what is best for you and ends up bending to the will of CCP. Two faces so to speak?

If it is something that comes out of the blue then I would expect any CSM to take it back to the players and find out what they think. And yes possibly put it up for a vote if the players deem it is important.

I think you need to focus on the idea of liquid democracy first before trying to determine if Night Beagle is the right man to monitor the program which I think he is.

.... you and your ridiculous backers do not seem to understand....
...
So even if by some miracle your feeble brain managed to compile a list, ....

Real life democracy does not translate into a corporate structure where your existence is as a guest. Which is a disconnect you and your ridiculous backers do not seem to understand. I am guessing you have never operated in a structure like CCP's or any other company that fiercely guards its intellectual property or you would not be so adamant about this.

The relationship between CCP and the CSM is not like a government and its subjugated masses as you like to reference so much. It is a corporate dictatorship, they(CCP) can and will make any demands of you(CSM) they wish. Including not allowing you to speak to us regarding matters they discuss with you. As two step said, once elected you are not allowed to tell us ANYTHING at all of what goes on over there. Nothing, zip, zero, nada. It is not and has no bearing on some idiot group of pirate hackers that spew propaganda on reddit to other idiot pirate hackers to make electoral statistics in idiot riddled political structures.


If CCP has something to say THEY will do the talking and the CSM will shut up until they are told otherwise. That means YOU, will be shutting up until THEY say you can talk, and only about what they say you are allowed to talk about. Which they would have previously published anyway before granting you permission to speak. Think of it like North Korea and you are a scientist that works on their bottle rocket program.

Think about this for a little bit. You rely on the fact that you can give an opinion in the absence of a vote measure, which in a normal governmental system would work. In a corporate dictatorship, it is not allowed and punishable quite severely under the law. So you are pretty much constantly relying on your opinion, and that opinion has already been voted on by way of your platform. Which only happens once, since it can only happen, once.

So even if by some miracle your feeble brain managed to compile a list, it would be short, and largely irrelevant to what the CSM does with CCP. And once compiled however it would instantly be rendered useless because CCP can jolly well do whatever they like with their property. You are simply there as a sounding board to give opinions on the really really stupid ones.


Your job is not to be some useless parrot that sits there and does nothing until it is allowed to speak, your job is to understand those around you well enough to stand up and make a decision on their behalf. When CCP in their good graces allows you to talk, then they will give you a nice sheet of bullet points you can talk to us about but by that point we would have already read the dev blog and you would merely fade into being a puppet.

Or do you want an individual making your decisions on what is important

Ofcourse, i'm only speaking for myself here but that is exactly what I want. If it wasn't, I would be running for CSM myself.
Whoever I will vote for, will have earned my trust that he/she can come to the right decision on his own.

Or do you want an individual making your decisions on what is important...So what is the point of any other CSM? Because according to you they are only a sounding board to bounce ideas off of.

....someone to have the testicular fortitude....

Night Beagle needs to have a long sit-down with Two step if he wants to turn this campaign around. He hasn't been listening thus far when the person currently on the CSM tells him that this proposed idea does not work with the CSM structure. He hasn't been listening to the feedback he's getting from the w-space community right now to shape his campaign into something we might want to vote for. Even if I wanted a crowdsourcing CSM, one who covers his ears and screams to drown out the noise whenever anyone challenges his preconceived notions would be the last thing I looked for.

I understand where you are coming from but lets look at it this way, say CCP comes up with something and poses it to the CSM's, the CSM's make their comments good or bad whatever the case may be. I can see where you may want an experienced player to make a comment on what CCP may come up with and Night Beagle does have experience in this game and is capable of making thoughtful comments on what CCP is interested in.

However since he has a mandate from the players and CSM's only have a limited time to try to get something done he does not get sidetracked by CCP to go down a road that may or may not be implemented. He continues to fight on what he knows the players want now. Not something that may come 2 years from now.

CCP has nothing to do with liquid democracy, it is only a way to achieve a mandate from the player base. Then use that mandate to push CCP for what the player base deems important.

I believe I may be over my two cents worth and closing in on a nickel so I will let it run its course for now





You have mixed two quotes together taking them out of context!

You have mixed two quotes together taking them out of context!

That is the point of the CSM. We vote for someone who we know understands w-space and can provide feedback to CCP in our absence on issues we do not yet know exist.

Take the force field issue with modular POSes. Two step was there (and so were various nullsec residents) to respond to CCP that force fields were a part of the terrain and some kind of safe in-space staging would be needed to replace that, if force fields had to go. We didn't hear about this until two months after the summit, because it took that long for the minutes to be written and the information therein approved to be released from NDA. You will not be able to solicit feedback on matters like that. I don't think anyone anticipated that force fields would be on the chopping block.

If the candidate's only understanding of w-space comes from the rest of us telling you about the place where you live and you are unwilling to accept that we want you -- nay, are entreating you -- to function on your own, then that is not a candidate that I want. I am not looking for crowdsourcing. I am looking for someone who knows that they do not need to be told what w-space wants or needs. If there is additional discussion, as modular POSes inspired, then the CSM's job is to facilitate communication between players and devs once that discussion is allowed to happen.

Night Beagle needs to have a long sit-down with Two step if he wants to turn this campaign around. He hasn't been listening thus far when the person currently on the CSM tells him that this proposed idea does not work with the CSM structure. He hasn't been listening to the feedback he's getting from the w-space community right now to shape his campaign into something we might want to vote for. Even if I wanted a crowdsourcing CSM, one who covers his ears and screams to drown out the noise whenever anyone challenges his preconceived notions would be the last thing I looked for.

quote snipped

@Winthorp: I have stated that I was not into forum playing or types of social interaction that enriches the out of game experience, and like many other current and past candidates I intend to remedy that in order to be able to provide the best flow of information.
Therefore you can see that I am currently active in the forums, and recently on Twitter @NightBeagle .

However, I will be delighted to keep hearing from you how CCP works and how CSM is.

So what is the point of any other CSM? Because according to you they are only a sounding board to bounce ideas off of. CCP can quell the discourse in any manner they chose and this is true, but let us not forget they may have the intellectual copy right but the players have the cash to pay for that property. If those players chose to spend their money elsewhere then CCP is rendered useless. They only provide a product, it is up to the players if they want to pay for that product. Thefore it is in CCP's best interest to allow the player base some actual input. So to claim that CCP or for that matter any corporation are dictatorships and that they are only responsible to themselves falls in the realm of GǪ..

Remember the Jita monument?

lol

I don't think SojournerBeagle is going to get elected

I can personally confirm that Rover is not the same person as Beagle. Take that for what you will.

Well they both have suspiciously similar dog names, take that for what you will.

They don't sound a thing alike on TeamSpeak.

Two Step

This is exactly correct. If Night Beagle wants my advice, he should feel free to take me up on my consulting services. I have already given him plenty of free advice in this thread/trainwreck.

Two Step
...I haven't heard him explain even a tiny bit of his game experience. When did he start playing? What has he done other than w-space? What has he done *in* w-space? His killboard history is very thin, does he consider himself a PVPer? A Miner?

Quote 1


In fact you have did the following: argue that CSM is not what I think, that my idea will not work and that I should fall into the crowd of chest beating politic style which seems to be appreciate by forum posters instead of supporting crowdsourcing. While the first two seems to be your beliefs and I take them as is without trying to convince you of the contrary even if we disagree on the arguments and ideas, the third point is in fact the key to the whole debate. Can one compare apples and pears. Can one

some European ideas about the superior race.

I for one believe that we have a great lineup of WH candidates :)

Once you stop running that will probably be the case.

One of the main issues regarding WH life is with the POS.

One of those issues involves SDing inside a POS essentially removing the benefits of hours of labor and doing the worst kind of thing in EvE- Tower shooting.

The general line of thought between all dwellers from C1-C6 is that SDing should only be allowable outside the force field.

Given your corporation

and

Given the support of your corporation CEO

and

Given your corporation's history with self-destructing

I ask

How would you even justify a vote in your direction?

It is direct democracy he doesn't get to choose.

Really?
Given the personal vendetta of Talocan transmission lost united against Insidious Design you had no other intension but burning that hole to the ground no matter what we did. 8 active pilots facing 100 active pilots and you have the audacity to bring that up? Could we control the hole, no. We just left EE and the caps we just brought in were unfit. You knew we were very weak and I would do the same thing again because I wouldn't give you the sweat of my ba&&s

You should be embarrassed!

It is direct democracy he doesn't get to choose.

Really?
Given the personal vendetta of Talocan transmission lost united against Insidious Design you had no other intension but burning that hole to the ground no matter what we did. 8 active pilots facing 100 active pilots and you have the audacity to bring that up? Could we control the hole, no. We just left EE and the caps we just brought in were unfit. You knew we were very weak and I would do the same thing again because I wouldn't give you the sweat of my ba&&s

You should be embarrassed!

Oh yes I do Bernie, I was just enjoying the discussion :)
I like very much to see the tears from your side for being denied some kills. In the end your game play did not worked and you are still sore :) Keep in mid that at that time I was out of game, so I was not involved in that incident.
I could however, from a observer point of view state, that INSID harassed you while being one corp against a whole alliance, while you waited until INSID was again only one corp, barely moving in a hole, with many good players remaining in other alliance corps, thus a vulnerable entity. Your actions were publicly admitted as being a bully steamrolling a smaller corp for reasons of hardfeelings. And when you were denied the bullying...cry for game changes. Let the tears come.

On the issue of what I would do, the answer is simple: the will of the community will be carried to the CSM/CCP. This is the main advantage of my proposal. No personal feelings will guide decisions. Only honest and transparent community will.

I have no idea what transmission lost problem is except they are in bed with talocan.
This is all old hat and the major players know exactly what happened. Why you guys can't let it go I have no idea. But has nothing to do with this thread.

Ever heard the term "let sleeping dogs lie" ?

This was a thread for someones candidacy to the CSM, however it seems to have been derailed by his White Knight seemingly wanting to vent some steam at long forgotten incidents, and in the matter of this thread, those said incidents are almost as irrelevant as I am !

Why it is bothering you so much that some guy from the crowd comes and proposes something that might or might not work?
Why this effort to stop him from running?
Is this an effect of something deeper? Of the fear that the other 84% of the players that did not previously voted might find the idea appealing? Fear that all the big alliances put together are in fact a minority of players in the WH and other space?

Dude, don't worry about it. We have primaries now. He won't make it to the final ballot anyway.

yeah my bad. i thought this was amusing. the other thread is even better.

You are all haters, you're just trolling because you yourself couldn't come up with anything better. To my alliance mates: I'm ashamed of you all. None of you fools could come up with that, so now you're sitting and smacking a man who truely understands EVE, one who tries to help us, help you.

If I was him, I'd quit the CSM race too, I wouldn't want to help people who shittalk me. How about you all grow some balls, and do some real PVP? Huh? It's cool to sit behind a forum toon and post hate, bring your smack to Beagle's C2, and then we'll see who's the troll.

Night Beagle for CSM 8!!!

You are all haters, you're just trolling because you yourself couldn't come up with anything better. To my alliance mates: I'm ashamed of you all. None of you fools could come up with that, so now you're sitting and smacking a man who truely understands EVE, one who tries to help us, help you.

If I was him, I'd quit the CSM race too, I wouldn't want to help people who shittalk me. How about you all grow some balls, and do some real PVP? Huh? It's cool to sit behind a forum toon and post hate, bring your smack to Beagle's C2, and then we'll see who's the troll.

Night Beagle for CSM 8!!!