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Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.22 14:30:00 - [1] Just done the "Infested Outposts" mission at level 4. Started out in my Raven. Was hitting the smaller drones (Violators, Rippers, Demolishers etc) for about 50 points with torps, 70 or so with heavies. Got bored, came back out with an Apoc with 6 Tachyons (plain, standard, tachyons) and UV crystals to give me about 63km range. Hit all the same types of drone for between 100 and 150 points, with very few misses. I have better missile skills than gunnery by the way...only have level 1 in large lasers, level 5 in Torps. Let's not even talk about how much the torps cost... Balanced? What ARE missile users supposed to use against these drones now? ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
Rex Martell	Posted - 2005.07.22 14:32:00 - [2] Agreed Guns now vastly out damage Missiles against all target sizes. "The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his"
Vee Bot	Posted - 2005.07.22 14:32:00 - [3] an appoc by the sounds of it.... ------------------ Remember that your Unique, like everyone else.
Belshamarothx	Posted - 2005.07.22 14:45:00 - [4] Originally by: Rex Martell Agreed Guns now vastly out damage Missiles against all target sizes. Finally! Does that mean we all agree TomB's nerfbat was swung way too heavily this time then. (In relation to missile damage on smaller ship types at least) /emote gets ready for the ritual flaming and all the "no we don't" replies from turret users as usual.
Zaintiraris	Posted - 2005.07.22 14:53:00 - [5] Were you just launching missiles? I mean...were you doing anything at all to support them? I get consistant hits of 267 on buildings with scourges in my cerberus, and rarely go under 100 damage per shot with 2 target painter 2's on anything. You can't just lock and fire missiles anymore. Gotta use those midslots. --- Originally by: CCP Hammer This game was so much better back before people knew math.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.22 15:01:00 - [6] Originally by: Grey Area Let's not even talk about how much the torps cost... you mean a tiny fraction of what l-crystals cost? Originally by: Sochin (and made famous by rollin) CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to
Rodj Blake	Posted - 2005.07.22 15:02:00 - [7] Did you check the damage that your tachyons did at 10km? Dolce et decorum est pro imperator mori
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.07.22 15:04:00 - [8] Edited by: j0sephine on 22/07/2005 15:06:40 "You can't just lock and fire missiles anymore. Gotta use those midslots." This would be fine if the missile ships were actually designed with such kind of layout in mind. But they weren't, and the new requirement to dedicate part of middle slots to new equipment means ... they no longer can use these slots to run the equipment they were expected to put there, when they were created. Think of it like of sudden change to lasers' fittings that make it necessity to use half of low slots on Amarr ship just for CPU upgrades to get these guns up and running... what does it do to the functionality of your ship?
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.22 15:12:00 - [9] Originally by: Zaintiraris Were you just launching missiles? I mean...were you doing anything at all to support them? I get consistant hits of 267 on buildings with scourges in my cerberus, and rarely go under 100 damage per shot with 2 target painter 2's on anything. You can't just lock and fire missiles anymore. Gotta use those midslots. No, I wasn't doing anything to "support" the missiles as you put it, but then I wasn't doing anything to "support" the Tach's either...and as I said, I have MUCh better missile skills (including all the new ones to level 4 except Warhead Upgrades (3) and Huided Missile Precision (3)) than laser...this is just WRONG. ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.22 15:14:00 - [10] Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: Grey Area Let's not even talk about how much the torps cost... you mean a tiny fraction of what l-crystals cost? Oh that's just such a lame, kneejerk reaction...I thought better even of you...how many SHOTS do you get out of a laser crystal? If it's more than one, just shut up please. ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================

Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.22 15:14:00 - [11] Originally by: Rodj Blake Did you check the damage that your tachyons did at 10km? That's not the point...laser users have an option...get to a decent range...missile users are now doing lousy damage at ALL ranges. ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.22 15:50:00 - [12] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 22/07/2005 15:50:59 Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: Grey Area Let's not even talk about how much the torps cost... you mean a tiny fraction of what l-crystals cost? Oh that's just such a lame, kneejerk reaction...I thought better even of you...how many SHOTS do you get out of a laser crystal? If it's more than one, just shut up please. For the cost of 1 large crystal you can get about 10k cruise or torps. And an apoc needs 8 of them. How long does it take you to go through 80k cruise or torps? An autotempest shoots its 6 guns like every 2 seconds, and my ammo costs about 80-100 each. Please stop the complaints about cost. Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
Bombaman	Posted - 2005.07.22 16:16:00 - [13] As it has been said before....train up the new missile skills is it really that hard
Faster ThanJesus	Posted - 2005.07.22 16:23:00 - [14] Originally by: DrunkenOne Edited by: DrunkenOne on 22/07/2005 15:50:59 Originally by: Grey Area Originally by: DrunkenOne Originally by: Grey Area Let's not even talk about how much the torps cost... you mean a tiny fraction of what l-crystals cost? Oh that's just such a lame, kneejerk reaction...I thought better even of you...how many SHOTS do you get out of a laser crystal? If it's more than one, just shut up please. For the cost of 1 large crystal you can get about 10k cruise or torps. And an apoc needs 8 of them. How long does it take you to go through 80k cruise or torps? An autotempest shoots its 6 guns like every 2 seconds, and my ammo costs about 80-100 each. Please stop the complaints about cost. Less than a week of decent play, easily. How many shots do you get before you need to reload? More than an hours worth?
Uggster	Posted - 2005.07.22 16:24:00 - [15] Originally by: Bombaman As it has been said before....train up the new missile skills is it really that hard I suppose that you would have said the same about Minnie guns before they were actually fixed as well
Faster ThanJesus	Posted - 2005.07.22 16:25:00 - [16] Originally by: Bombaman As it has been said before....train up the new missile skills is it really that hard Did you read his post? Did you bother to spend more than an attosecond processing them? HE SAID HE HAS MORE SKILL POINTS IN MISSILES THAN BEAM WEAPONS/GUNNERY AND THE GUNNERY IS PERFORMING BETTER.
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.07.22 16:35:00 - [17] Originally by: Faster ThanJesus Originally by: Bombaman As it has been said before....train up the new missile skills is it really that hard Did you read his post? Did you bother to spend more than an attosecond processing them? HE SAID HE HAS MORE SKILL POINTS IN MISSILES THAN BEAM WEAPONS/GUNNERY AND THE GUNNERY IS PERFORMING BETTER. Yes i agree it all sounds like guns are better but dont forget he was shooting at like 60 odd km which is the tacs Optimal damage range however if it happened +\- 10km he would probably miss most times [ i bet he was still missing a lot anyway at optimal i do and all my skills are at 4\5]. What you all seem to forget is that sure guns can outdamage missiles at times but this is not a certainty even with decent skills\guns. When we say optimal range imagine a circle surrounding that ship at that range anywhere with in 10km of that ring we hit well say 80% of the time after that we miss more and more. Missiles however hit ALL the time at ALL ranges true the damage can be poor but at least you are garanteed a hit now if missiles could miss and i mean miss not do no damage then we would be behind you missile nerf whiners. Remember one big advantage must be ballanced by a disadvantage yours is the hitting all the time the disadvantage is the damage modyfier that is a bit over the top still tho Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!!
Idara	Posted - 2005.07.22 16:44:00 - [18] What's the range you were shooting the Tach's from? Optimal? Hmmm....go under that and you'll miss. Missiles? Hit at all ranges, from max to 0km. Buhu. Quote: Klevari > I ♣ my wife and I ♠ my dog! Ageis > you club your wife and you spade your dog?
Cosmic Dragon	Posted - 2005.07.22 16:56:00 - [19] Originally by: Idara What's the range you were shooting the Tach's from? Optimal? Hmmm....go under that and you'll miss. Missiles? Hit at all ranges, from max to 0km. Buhu. He was shooting at 63km at his skill level and with that kind of crystall it was at his optimall range band. Beauty Is In The Eye Of The Beer Holder!!!
Faster ThanJesus	Posted - 2005.07.22 17:30:00 - [20] Originally by: Cosmic Dragon Originally by: Faster ThanJesus Originally by: Bombaman As it has been said before....train up the new missile skills is it really that hard Did you read his post? Did you bother to spend more than an attosecond processing them? HE SAID HE HAS MORE SKILL POINTS IN MISSILES THAN BEAM WEAPONS/GUNNERY AND THE GUNNERY IS PERFORMING BETTER. Yes i agree it all sounds like guns are better but dont forget he was shooting at like 60 odd km which is the tacs Optimal damage range however if it happened +\- 10km he would probably miss most times [ i bet he was still missing a lot anyway at optimal i do and all my skills are at 4\5]. What you all seem to forget is that sure guns can outdamage missiles at times but this is not a certainty even with decent skills\guns. When we say optimal range imagine a circle surrounding that ship at that range anywhere with in 10km of that ring we hit well say 80% of the time after that we miss more and more. Missiles however hit ALL the time at ALL ranges true the damage can be poor but at least you are garanteed a hit now if missiles could miss and i mean miss not do no damage then we would be behind you missile nerf whiners. Remember one big advantage must be ballanced by a disadvantage yours is the hitting all the time the disadvantage is the damage modyfier that is a bit over the top still tho Close in, you use drones, so do I. I've no desire to waste 30 cruise or torps against frigs where a load of med drones (or even heavies) will clean them up much faster. The problem is missile users have no option to improve performance vs small targets at any range, nothing. Turret users complain that missiles are fire and forget and no actual usage skill is required - that's a fair point but don't you think it would be fairer yet to actually make it so that there is some thought to using missiles so the options are there?

Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.22 19:32:00 - [21] Yes, I was firing at optimal with the lasers. Why? Because I was killing the drones so fast that they never actially got CLOSER than optimal. That's why this is unbalanced...missile users do crap all damage to small targets (and drones are a small target apparently, even though they hit you harder than some cruisers) at long range. This means by the time you have killed ONE drone, his ten mates are right on top of you, knocking politely on the hull and saying "Can we come in?". With the turrets the kill rate is so much faster only half at most are going to make it into your "close" range. I was using UV crystals...If I'd paused a second as a drone came in, I could have switched to multifreq's, thus shortening my optimal range and doing even MORE damage. I didn't post this originally as someone would have whinged "Oh well you're only using the highest damage crystal in the game what do you expect?". Missile users have no option to sacrifice range for damage. And yes, I KNOW I can use drones....the point is, so can an Apoc. What I'm trying to point out here is that missiles are gimped. Show me something a missile user can do to bring our damage up to a reasonable level (and no, I don't mean the "one shot kills everything" situation that it used to be, that was daft too) that a turret user can't match...as I said, I deliberately used lasers with no target painter, no trackin comp, no low slot mods (should point out that the Raven already has a Caldari Navy Ballistic Control on it, to even FURTHER indicate how imbalanced this is). Target painters don't affect Torp hits at all (though they do improve large turret hits by about 20-25% - more imbalance. And to FasterThanJesus for flaming the guy who said "train the skills"....thanks, saved me the bother. ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.22 19:37:00 - [22] Simplified...forget damage, crystals, skills etc Time to kill drone with Torps - 90 seconds Time to kill drone with Tachs - 45-60 seconds In that extra 30-45 seconds I am spending to kill one drone, the other drones are closing me down. That's the simplicity of it, and that's why it's imbalanced. Post patch, missile users plain and simple cannot kill stuff OF ANY SIZE as fast as turret users, no matter what modules, drones, missile size, missile type or skills they employ. ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.07.22 19:40:00 - [23] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 22/07/2005 19:40:04 Originally by: Faster ThanJesus Less than a week of decent play, easily. How many shots do you get before you need to reload? More than an hours worth? 80k of ammo in a week? Right, maybe if you are NPCing for 10 hours a day. My tempests EMP L ammo costs almost as much as your cruise, and I fire 5 or 6x as fast as you. Whine elsewhere. Originally by: Sochin CCP has provided you with the tools you need to avoid crime. You're just too lazy/stupid to use them.
Deja Thoris	Posted - 2005.07.22 19:43:00 - [24] Use smaller launchers? Turret users cant hit small targets close in full stop. Missile users cant hit small targets for good damage at any range but they hit them... Is there some kind of law saying you have to use the biggest launcher type?
Necrologic	Posted - 2005.07.22 19:52:00 - [25] So, obviusly, the solution is to not use missles on drones/small targets. Wow, that was hard. _______________________________________________________ Et nunc, reges, intelligite, erudimini, qui judicati terram.
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.22 19:57:00 - [26] Originally by: Deja Thoris Use smaller launchers? Turret users cant hit small targets close in full stop. Missile users cant hit small targets for good damage at any range but they hit them... Is there some kind of law saying you have to use the biggest launcher type? Given that on this level as well as the small drones there are FOUR supreme drone parasites, then YES, there is such a law. It's called the law of survival. (I know, I know (cue whiny voice) "Don't solo the mission then". My point is I came back in the Apoc and soloed it EASILY) And you'll note,if you read the post properly, I quoted hits for Heavy Missiles too. I didn't make those up, I had two heavy launchers fitted to my ship. They hit for 40% less than the torps, and have about a 20% better rate of fire. Not attractive. Next suggestion please. ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.22 19:59:00 - [27] Originally by: Necrologic So, obviusly, the solution is to not use missles on drones/small targets. Wow, that was hard. If I chose your main weapon (don't know what it is, sorry) and said "Here is a whole class of stuff that you will no longer be able to kill without training another weapon", would YOU be happy? ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
Johnny Johnny	Posted - 2005.07.22 19:59:00 - [28] Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 22/07/2005 15:06:40 "You can't just lock and fire missiles anymore. Gotta use those midslots." This would be fine if the missile ships were actually designed with such kind of layout in mind. But they weren't, and the new requirement to dedicate part of middle slots to new equipment means ... they no longer can use these slots to run the equipment they were expected to put there, when they were created. Think of it like of sudden change to lasers' fittings that make it necessity to use half of low slots on Amarr ship just for CPU upgrades to get these guns up and running... what does it do to the functionality of your ship? Exactly right, Jo. What I think should happen is that the ROF bonus for BCS's should get changed to either a larger tracking, or explosive radius bonus. Meh, just my opinion, though. ------------- Johnny Johnny ItÆs not pirating! ItÆs non-consensual target practice.
Zanira Elk	Posted - 2005.07.22 20:00:00 - [29] Originally by: Grey Area Simplified...forget damage, crystals, skills etc Time to kill drone with Torps - 90 seconds Time to kill drone with Tachs - 45-60 seconds Time to kill drone with Tachs up close - infinity seconds
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.07.22 20:05:00 - [30] Originally by: Zanira Elk Time to kill drone with Tachs up close - infinity seconds Yes, but if you warp in to "up close" then you're just a pillock (accepted in deadspace you don't always get a choice, but I'll agree that IS when you need small guns and drones regardless of what ship you are flying) However...once the initial spawn is dispatched, you do what everybody else does...you get to your optimal range before firing again. In your Apoc you can kill twice as many drones before they close you down again (more probably, if your skills are better than mine) than a comaparable pilot in a Raven. And I'm talking with your main weapon here, so whinges about "fit some small weapons" don't really apply, as they only come into play when you're already at close range...they're not going to improve things any before that point. ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================



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