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Jiggy
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Posted - 2005.07.23 16:50:00 -
[31]
When somebody starts saying "if its so powerful just train for it" alarms bells should start ringing, people shouldnt have to train other races to have a good cruiser, in reality the only thing overpowering the thorax is the ability to field 8 heavy drones especially when the vexor which is the drone carrier cruiser can only field 6.
The thorax is the gunboat of the gallente cruiser fleet so shouldnt have the high drone bay that it does, all cruiser lack powergrid so if theres a universal boost then fair enough but any way you look at it the rax has too much drone space compared to other tier 3 cruisers and has as many guns as the maller which has no drone space and the rupture has less guns and only 60 drone space and has no bonuses to its missile slot which bring down tgheir damage compared to other primary weapons considerably.
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theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.07.23 17:49:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
All cruisers need a boost, but no cruiser should be able to feild more heavy drones than any BS.
Why not? Lets just pull statements out of our ass. For example, no cruiser should be able to tank better then any BS. Oh wait some HAC's do. Bu hu.
BS are *NOT* the kings of everything. They are heavily penalized in some areas for no logical reason to allow small ships to compete (eg scan radius). If heavy drones make the rax to powerful then they need a tracking nerf. Then the rax becomes more focused on anti-BS work.
If the drone bay is nerfed then people will just use medium drones, and will still own other cruisers and frigs. *ALL* tier III cruisers should be able to fight BS with support. Currently the rax is really the only one.
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
-- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure. |
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.07.23 17:51:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Jiggy
The thorax is the gunboat of the gallente cruiser fleet so shouldnt have the high drone bay that it does.
If the vexor is supposed to be a drone boat then it needs to lose a turret. The arbitrator is a drone ship, it was two turrets and a launcher point. And is worse then the vexor in nearly all other stats, except it has an extra low.
The vexor is a medium drone using gun boat.
That is not dead which can eternal lie,
And with strange aeons even death may die.
-- Ancient "Dirt" Religious figure. |
sableye
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Posted - 2005.07.25 00:44:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Selim
Originally by: sableye
if you nerf the thorax drone bay it will need more slots of compensation, it already has the lowest amount of slots of any tier 3 cruiser.
No, it only has one less highslot, and highslots are nowhere near as important as mids or lows. Consider that on the Moa and Rupture both the 5th and 6th hislots are missile launchers, and missiles suck for damage without bonuses, and the Maller only has 5 weapons anyway.
Basically a highslot just means CCP wants your ship to be harder to fit and have less mids and lows because they hate you.
it might only have 1 less slot than some ruisers but someothers have 2-3 more slots.
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Bleakheart
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Posted - 2005.07.25 01:32:00 -
[35]
Originally by: theRaptor
The vexor is a medium drone using gun boat.
That is able to field 8 heavy drones... 
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Sadist
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Posted - 2005.07.25 01:52:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Bleakheart
Originally by: theRaptor
The vexor is a medium drone using gun boat.
That is able to field 8 heavy drones...
Umm....6 ? Learn arithmetics?
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Originally by: Dark Shikari
"One Trit to rule them all, One Trit to find them, One Trit to bring them all, and in the veldspar bind them"
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Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.07.25 03:02:00 -
[37]
Originally by: theRaptor
Originally by: Jiggy
The thorax is the gunboat of the gallente cruiser fleet so shouldnt have the high drone bay that it does.
If the vexor is supposed to be a drone boat then it needs to lose a turret. The arbitrator is a drone ship, it was two turrets and a launcher point. And is worse then the vexor in nearly all other stats, except it has an extra low.
The vexor is a medium drone using gun boat.
Megathron - 7 guns 250 m3 dronebay
Dominix - 6 guns 750 m3 dronebay
Thorax - 5 guns 200 m3 dronebay
Vexor - 4 guns 150 m3 dronebay
Only one stat up there is clearly wrong. And no it isnt the Megathron's dronebay.
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here |
Sadist
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Posted - 2005.07.25 05:19:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean
Simplest solution in my opinion would be to switch the drone capacities of the Thorax and Brutix.
Quoted for truth. Simple, yet ingenious. Maybe then we'll see an end to the "Brutix blows" and "Thorax is omfg overpowered" threads.
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Originally by: Dark Shikari
"One Trit to rule them all, One Trit to find them, One Trit to bring them all, and in the veldspar bind them"
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Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.07.25 07:26:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Sadist
Originally by: Caeden Nicomachean
Simplest solution in my opinion would be to switch the drone capacities of the Thorax and Brutix.
Quoted for truth. Simple, yet ingenious. Maybe then we'll see an end to the "Brutix blows" and "Thorax is omfg overpowered" threads.
Works for me too.
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here |
ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.25 07:53:00 -
[40]
Yeah, actually, that works. 
Switch the drone bays of the Thorax and the Brutix, and kill 2 birds with one stone. (One overpowered one and one underpowered one  )
Seriously, an awesome idea.
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MrRookie
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Posted - 2005.07.25 09:32:00 -
[41]
The Vexor should be able to use the same ammount of heavies as the ishtar :)
And the thorax 10 medium.
_____________________________________________
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http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=139877 |
ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.25 10:12:00 -
[42]
Originally by: MrRookie
The Vexor should be able to use the same ammount of heavies as the ishtar :)
And the thorax 10 medium.
You're joking about the Vexor right... ? Do you have ANY idea how powerful an Ishtar is? Thats why it's an HAC...
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Markie
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Posted - 2005.07.25 10:14:00 -
[43]
LEAVE THE RAX AS IT IS IMHO
It can be kitted out to be good, yes. It can also be dropped by 2 AF providing they aint got uber tank and 1600 armor etc.
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lythos miralbar
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Posted - 2005.07.25 10:21:00 -
[44]
cruisers are better post patch but are still in a bit of a state in general. Basicly all excpet the thorax are kinda sucky.. the thorax being 'ok'.
Instead of nerfing the thorax, please give the other cruisers a little more lub (nothing over the top though).
Maybe a -X% explosion radius per level for the caracal?
hows about a +X% tracking bonus for the moa?
Bit more armor for the amarr ships, maybe an extra turret here or there?
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MrRookie
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Posted - 2005.07.25 10:21:00 -
[45]
Originally by: ELECTR0FREAK
Originally by: MrRookie
The Vexor should be able to use the same ammount of heavies as the ishtar :)
And the thorax 10 medium.
You're joking about the Vexor right... ? Do you have ANY idea how powerful an Ishtar is? Thats why it's an HAC...
I have an Ishtar myself and yes I know how powerfull it is. Maybe 15 heavies on the Vexor is a bit much but since it a dedicated drone carrier I wouldnt mind if it could have the option to choose between a fair ammount of heavies (8-10?) or a max mediums
_____________________________________________
\o/
I got a siggy...
WTB 3x Medium Modulated Pulse Energy Beams
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=139877 |
ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.25 10:25:00 -
[46]
Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 25/07/2005 10:26:21
15 heavy drones = 300 DPS with Heavy Drones III. You realize how much firepower that is for a cruiser?! Hell, my Cerberus only puts out under 200 DPS with a complete gank setup. However, said Vexor could fit 1600mm plates and wtfpwn any cruiser and send battleships packing.
Who would bother training an Ishtar then?! 
Edit- AND ALSO. To everyone who says buff all other cruisers, its easy to say, but CCP isn't going to go to the trouble of buffing and rebalancing the other 11 cruisers when all that needs to be done is swap the Thorax's dronebay with the Brutix.
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MrRookie
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Posted - 2005.07.25 10:33:00 -
[47]
The recistance and all the other superior stats is reason enough to train for the Ishtar, but as I said, 15 might be to much. But it`s fair enough if the Vexor could carry 8-10 heavies
_____________________________________________
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I got a siggy...
WTB 3x Medium Modulated Pulse Energy Beams
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=139877 |
ELECTR0FREAK
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Posted - 2005.07.25 11:20:00 -
[48]
No... it would not. Said Vexor would still be putting out just under 200 DPS, while a Maller with Heavy Beams and gunnery skills at lvl 4 puts out around 80 DPS.
So many people misunderstand just how powerful Heavy Drones are. They're essentially intended for battleships, Cruisers should NOT be able to field more than a few of them. They're essentially weapons with more hitpoints than most frigs, little trouble tracking anything other than a MWDing frigate, no fitting cost or requirements, any damage the pilot chooses to carry with him, and around 21 DPS with Heavy Drones 4, EACH.
For comparison, a Heavy Neutron Blaster loaded with Antimatter M, Rapid Firing 4, Medium Hybrid Turret 4, and Gunnery 4 does about 24.8 DPS. However, it cannot be launched at a target 40 km away, has fitting requirements that will reduce a ships ability to tank, has half the tracking speed of a heavy drone, a fixed damage type, consumes cap, requires ammunition and reload times, and is susceptible to EW.
Heck, my Ferox has trouble fitting 5 Heavy Neutron Blasters, do you see where I'm going?
Heavy Drones just don't belong on cruisers. They're definately an adequate secondary weapon for battleships, but just are too powerful in terms of pros versus cons for a cruiser. All you have to do is pick which type of damage you want, and toss the drones into your bay. Bingo, instant firepower, and at no cost other than a couple ISK.
Now, before you go and say "ah, but you can shoot down drones" let me remind you this. It takes 4 repetitions of a medium smartbomb to kill a heavy drone, or at least 22.5 seconds to kill the drones. During this time, EACH drone will have inflicted 472 damage to the target. Even firing normal turrets at the drones in an attempt to destroy them, the amount of time it takes for the attacking ship to take down the drones, and the damage recieved during that time, gives the drone ship a pretty nice head start. Even if it puts out less damage via its turrets than the opposing ship, it can still win the fight due to the advantage its drones gave it. (Note as well, said ship could easily use its fittings for a strong tank, relying on its drones for most of its firepower. 1600mm plate T-Rax anyone?)
I'm not crusading against Heavy Drones specifically. I'm not crusading against Gallente Cruisers specifically. However, more than a few Heavy Drones on a cruiser is simply unbalancing. It's fairly obvious, but the Thorax pilots don't want to admit it. Why admit it when you can have crappy gunnery skills, crappy fitting skills, throw a plate and some frig guns onto your Thorax, have a few levels of Heavy Drones trained and easily tear through another skilled cruiser pilot?
Swap the Thorax and Brutix dronebays. It gives the Brutix the advantage it needs, and puts the Thorax back in its place among the other cruisers.
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MrRookie
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Posted - 2005.07.25 11:54:00 -
[49]
Ok I was wrong 
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