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wakiza
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Posted - 2003.07.17 15:50:00 -
[1]
This sucks even more...
I have been playing Eve in 5-6 weeks ..but now im getting pretty tired of their bugs.
Today i was mining (as i do everyday zzZZz) then i target locked on my friend to use my cargoscanner ..just to see mow much we got! Then out of nowhere Caldari Police came and shoot me down ..for no F**cking reason ..so now im at -0.1 security level, lost my ship, all my drones and all the stuff i have working on for weeks. I understand if it was a player or I had done anything wrong.
The Part that SUCKS even more is: I get NO responce from Eve-support !!
My question is: Should we play something else ??
cause i report bugs when i see them ..but get nothing in return (like "thanks" .."Sorry, we got your money HAHA please Uninstall your game")
Am I the only one who is tired of their bugs ? and did I anything wrong ???
Edited by: wakiza on 17/07/2003 15:57:04
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Miranda
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Posted - 2003.07.17 16:44:00 -
[2]
The fault is yours.
It was posted in the patch notes or in a dev-blog that using modules on other ships like cargo scanner/ship scanner, warp distrupters, weapon disrupters and stasis feilds would NOW be classed as a Hostile Event, ie its a prelude to an Attack, Hence the cops come and wipe the floor with you.
If you dont bother to read then thats your fault and no one else's. Its not a bug thats for sure.
Edited by: Miranda on 17/07/2003 16:45:27
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wakiza
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Posted - 2003.07.17 17:13:00 -
[3]
thanks !!
but that meens that I should read a hole "telephone book" everytime I log on ..to know "todays rules"..
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Miranda
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Posted - 2003.07.17 18:40:00 -
[4]
Pretty much, the rules change every patch. Its all part of the wonderfull Betail we are playing.
Betail= pay to play BETA.
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JavaGuy1
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Posted - 2003.07.17 19:25:00 -
[5]
Pay-to-play alpha is more like it.
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Jojin
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Posted - 2003.07.18 14:05:00 -
[6]
I know what it feels like to do something you think is innocent and then get toasted for it. It is a hard way to learn.
However, the statement about reading a phone book every time you play is a little overboard. Normally, the patch notes are rather small and not all to frequent.
I am sure you will get a response from the customer service department. From the post, it would seem it has not been a full 24 hours yet and they most likely put it in a low priority basket.
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GeoNoSiS
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Posted - 2003.07.18 15:24:00 -
[7]
Also... you don¦t have to read the entire notes... just find the combat or weapons section and read that...
-----------------------------------------------
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to world |
Askari
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Posted - 2003.07.18 16:34:00 -
[8]
Waz does have a very valid point.
Either at stations or as part of the Bill boards, there should be functions / pages with a list of illegal actions and the such.
What each action will cause and why.
This way - there are no excuses, im used to thoroughly scanning the patch notes now, but the simple fact is - i should not have to.
The information should be easily and freely available for all to see and what any retributional acts there may be should you break them.
Im sorry for your loss - but dont give up, everyone i know has had a set back of some kind.
----------------
~= Askari =~
Urza's Factory
http://www.mikeward.uk.com/urzas
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Drahcir
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Posted - 2003.07.18 19:33:00 -
[9]
You must have been in N00b space as I have locked on priends many times although I have not actually run any scans (I did actually fire on a friend once). I have yet had the cops all over me and have not had my Sec Lvl Downgraded.
But just remember this too Anytime you do something that is considered an aggresseve action there is a chance of some reaction coming back and it may not be an equal response to your action.
Drahcir
CEO - Enron Enery Consortium |
Cain Calzon
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Posted - 2003.07.18 22:42:00 -
[10]
perhaps you and your friend Drahcir is in the same corporation. if u lock and fire at your corporation mates then concord nor the police will come.
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Flamer
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Posted - 2003.07.19 22:39:00 -
[11]
It could also have been before they started increasing police activity, since i was once shot at in Penirgman and no cops showed up, also u don't need to read the entire agreement, just read the patch notes for say the last 5patches and then remember to do so in the future, u should get all info on changes done to these sorts of things
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Morleidr
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Posted - 2003.07.20 06:18:00 -
[12]
Problem is.... they didn't say scanning was a hostile act. They said stasis webbing and warp scrambling was classified as hostile, no mention of cargo scanning. Unless I'm mistaken, that is (it's possible -- it's very late).
......
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Bylin
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Posted - 2003.07.20 09:02:00 -
[13]
If its any consolation Waz I did the same, only worse. Worse because the fighting ship I lost was loaded down with all my great stuff for re-location to my new corp. On losing the ship I leapt into my cargo carrier without realising my security status was still negative. Result: 2 lost ships, left the corp in shame and eventually killed my character. Thats the penalty for folling around in n00b spoace I guess! New character is better developed, my purchases have been more informed and enjoying the game a lot more now.
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Oxide Hera
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Posted - 2003.07.20 18:53:00 -
[14]
I think the idea that "The fault is yours" is pretty dumb. The dude performed an innocuous act and was killed by a crappy system. I had a ship and drones jacked by the cops for dinging a friend during a melee with pirates, I have a negative security rating with no viable method of improving it and am playing the game pretty much purely because there are other people playing I know and like. If I wasn't socially comitted, I'd have uninstalled Eve, gone back to Planetside full time and never looked back. (and say what you want about Planetside, oh legion who will pop up to condemn me as an FPS player -- they have an *excellent* system for managing player aggression in a high-firepower environment.)
Don't call me a whiner -- this is just amazingly bad game design, and I should bloody well know, as I design games for a living. IF you want to get technical, the value of a player's ship and drones and cargo is often consdierable, even irreplaceable, and represents much of their investment in the game. The law enforcement AI is much too touchy and is killing people's invested value in their characters.
Devs, your grief / aggro / guilt system needs a lot of attention. If I get jumped by cops again for a low negative security rating while going about my business and my ship is destroyed, I'm gonna stop playing, and the people going "you did it, you activated the cargo scanner, the guilt is yours" can sit back and contemplate the wisdom of that attitude as the Eve community slips one more user towards non-viability. Just because you can frame an issue as projecting the guilt onto a given party doesn't make it so, or the court system would be a lot more streamlined.
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Jojin
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Posted - 2003.07.20 22:53:00 -
[15]
I would have to disagree with the idea the act of using a cargo scanner on another individual is an innocuous act. Violating my rights to privacy is a personal attack and I would hope that the authorities respond. There does not seem to be any reason for using such methods, when a simple question could perform the same results.
I do realize the intentions for this situation may have been harmless, but it is going to extremes to expect the system to be able to know the intended reasons for individual acts performed by the players.
I will admit, because not all players may read the patch notes or be able to easily identify the classification of modules, there should be a simple method marking implemented. Perhaps it could be in the attribute listing of a module or just a color ring surrounding a module to identify (Red Offensive, Blue Supportive, etc).
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Oxide Hera
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Posted - 2003.07.21 07:54:00 -
[16]
>>>I do realize the intentions for this situation may have been harmless, but it is going to extremes to expect the system to be able to know the intended reasons for individual acts performed by the players.<<<
The system didn't grow out of the ground like mushrooms after the rain. Someone wrote it, knowing full well what its purpose would be. If the system is punishing players for innocent acts, the problem doesn't lie in the players, it lies in the design. You're apologizing for a faulty heuristic by blaming the player for violating your "right to privacy". The system should very well punish the genuinely guilty and not punish the innocent because that's it's job. If it's hard to think of a way to make a logical system that does that, I guess that's why we pay money to play this game and the developers draw salaries. They'd better be very clever fellows and think of an answer, or I quit.
If there is a hostile act, there needs to be a big red flag before the game kills you, and the game in general needs a better way to deal with hostility than spawning in a bunch of police ships and capping you whenever it thinks you might be making trouble. In my case, I dinged a friendly in a fight because I ended up locked to him by accident, and was jumped about a half-hour later by the police while docking at a space station, much to my surprise. As I see it, the problem is not mine for dinging my friend's ship, the problem is the algorithm that's driving the bad decisions.
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Jojin
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Posted - 2003.07.21 09:11:00 -
[17]
The points you make are somewhat valid. I still reaffirm the system, because it cannot discern the intention of an act, should act as if the intention was used for hostile or malicious purposes. Ignorance of the rules is not a reason to change the system.
The game does allow for methods to test out equipment and devices without interference. This would be 0.0 sectors which have not been claimed by any of the various governments.
For acts which were accidental, as the situation to which you referred with your friend, the system can only react to what is knows. It knows you fired upon your friend and thus it followed the policies in place for dealing with such an act. Also, the game never attempts to take your characters life. It will however destroy equipment, which you can just consider a fine of sorts.
The concept of putting up red flags and other signs before an act is, I believe in place. Most people, just select OK and put a little check in the box stating donÆt show me this message again. Even though, as I stated before a subtle marking on the equipment or in the description would be of help.
The idea the programmers need to come up with an algorithm to determine a playerÆs motive or intent is a bit far fetched. If they could do such, then wouldnÆt think they would be using it for a game. In fact after their fame and notoriety for creating an artificial intelligence with such abilities, I believe they would be shuffled off by some huge corporation or government to pursue more productive applications.
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Gavilan
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Posted - 2003.07.21 09:23:00 -
[18]
I think the police should give you the option of perhaps paying a fine before they attack you. The fine could depend on the act you committed and your security status. That way if you make a mistake you're punished by having to pay a fine, or if you want to blast it out with the cops feel free to tell them what to do with their fine. It may not be a perfect solution but it would stop newbies being blasted for experimenting in game.
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Lysander
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Posted - 2003.07.21 22:23:00 -
[19]
I had a similar experience. Play-fight in a corp in a 1.0 system and you're OK, but do it in a gang with mates from another corp and you get jumped on by Concord. Happened to me in a 0.5 system too, which sucks. Sec rating dropped to -0.4, but recovered +0.1 each day.
There's also the issue re: stealing the contents of a can. Someone does that to you, how are you supposed to stick up for yourself without the police jumping on you?
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Trixxy
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Posted - 2003.07.22 14:08:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Trixxy on 22/07/2003 14:10:23
how are you supposed to stick up for yourself without the police jumping on you?
If you're in a corp, and it's happening a lot, you can threaten the perp's corp with a nice little war.
If you're on your own, the only option that remains is to put a contract out on the perp.
Otherwise, it's take yer chances with the police. Think of it as the Wild West all over again. This is a new frontier we live in - and the policing cannot be relied upon. So the only solution is for players to dispense their own justice. 
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- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
...and remember - No pain, no pain. |
Azyala
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Posted - 2003.07.22 16:34:00 -
[21]
Same thing happened to me....I learned my lesson the hard way. Also, learned to read. 
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Mitra
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Posted - 2003.07.23 11:11:00 -
[22]
The system as it is at the moment is far from usable:
getting jumped by concord for damaging a gang mates drones in a fight against NPC-pirates just sucks... if you shoot them on purpose its fine, but getting aggroed for splash damage....
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slothe
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Posted - 2003.07.23 14:50:00 -
[23]
for all new members tired of bugs and mining.
persevere.
ive been there done that and come out the otherside and its cool.
everyone has to do mining initiation. but this helps you get accustomed to the game / skills / equipment etc as you do this - so spend the time wisely and youll learn from it.
the bugs are irritating to but are gradually being addressed. so be patient.
this is not a game where you can have everything quick - but that is in the long term good. if you have everything quickly you lose interest.
you want to join a good corp (like ours btw we are recruiting) for support and guidance.
then you will enjoy, trust me..
Say hello on our forum @www.aserea.com
or join our public channel ingame "MLM Public"
http://www.khainestar.com/eve |
Marcus Grisbius
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Posted - 2003.07.23 16:41:00 -
[24]
I had a similar situation with the pirates. I was fighting some pirates near a stargate and didn't realize that I was as close to the gate as I was. Anyway, I have learned two things: 1.) Smartbombs are only as smart as the person using them. 2.) Sentry guns hurt.
Luckily I managed to jump without losing a ship but it sure scared me.
Truth is, you can go through life in ignorance but it doesn't excuse you from your actions. They don't post traffic laws on the side of the road. They give you a book that most people don't ***** open during or after driving school. After that the laws change and they don't send you another book. But I can tell you the real cops don't care if you did or didn't know the law, they're going to ticket you regardless.
I do like the isk fine or sec status fine idea. That would be a neat addition. May be too easy to exploit seeing that the cops are NPC's but it's still interesting.
Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn |
Pran Thea
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Posted - 2003.07.24 12:10:00 -
[25]
I would like to return this thread back to its original comment about the police reaction to cargo scanning.
The devs are starting to put significant quantities of illegal cargos into the game. The lastest news from CONCORD is that they detest the increase in slave trade and are killing the traders. BUT, WHERE ARE THE PLAYERS??? We are just sitting on the side lines reading about it!
How can I assist with halting the slave trade? I have to scan peoples cargos, then "stop" those pilots with illegal cargo! HOWEVER, if I scan their cargo, the police kill me. If I attempt to "stop" them, the police kill me.
Therefore, one of two things are true.
1) The Security/Police AI is very badly designed and will need a major overhaul to allow REAL role playing; or
2) ALL of CONCORD has been corrupted by the lure of isk and illegal substances and are now siding with the Blood Raiders, Guristas, etc.
As for which is true, when was the last time you saw a CONCORD officer, 1 km away, come to your aide when you were attacked by NPC pirates? Hmmmm?
==========================================
The only good slave is an ex-slave trader. |
Oxide Hera
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Posted - 2003.07.24 14:47:00 -
[26]
Thanks devs!
I saw the patch notes. Good job responding to this issue.
In response to the people defending the system -- keep in mind thsi system is written for god, integrated into the plan of god's world, and has access to god's infallible notebooks about the world. When you your system has access to the fundamental data underpinning reality, it is your problem as a designer if you cannot meet the demands of the situation. I mean, of course you can't blame the system, it's an automation, but you can certain blame the systems architect, which I did, and they seem to have fixed it, which is good, and to the general benefit of all.
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Miranda
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Posted - 2003.07.25 11:46:00 -
[27]
If u want to scan someone then do it the sneaky way. Passive targetting so they dont know you have targeted them, I have not tried it in high sec space yet as i dont have the time, But as the use of the passive targeting system dosnt show up as a threat you should be ok.
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Muvas
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Posted - 2003.08.02 09:33:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Muvas on 02/08/2003 09:34:57
Okay any everquest buffs here what happens when u select a guard and hit "a" .... bet u never did that 2x. just like real life u have some hard lessons but once u find out you rarely make the same mistake 2 times suck it up and drive on
In Service of the Dream
Muvas Vaga
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Skaroth
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Posted - 2003.08.04 09:55:00 -
[29]
personally i think that a "graded response" system by concord could work.
eg.
for a none violent target lock and/or cargo scan, the cops show up, issue a warning and tail the offender(s) around for a while.
any further acts could result in an attack by police.
for something more agressive like a webify or scramble the cops could show up no warnings and fire warning shots.
any shots fired should obviously result in the cops shooting first and asking questions later.
on the subject of friendly fire causing the cops to destroy ships i think this is totally unrealistic. if u are ganged and get splash damage from a gang mate, the cops should NOT come in shooting. there should be a check when u take damage that goes "if ganged=true then no cops". if u are stupid enough to gang with some one u cant trust then THAT should be your fault. not friendly fire.
skaroth
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Sara Trenton
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Posted - 2003.08.06 23:18:00 -
[30]
Wouldn't it make sense to allow the affected party (the one who was scanned) to decide whether or not they want to press charges?
Scanning someone is a hostile act, but not punishable by death, surely?
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