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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Mark A
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Posted - 2005.07.25 20:13:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Mark A on 25/07/2005 20:14:49
Last night's fiasco in M-M really highlighted that some of the perennial problems with the game are getting worse rather than better. We tried to have a fleet battle, and instead got insane lag followed by the whole system choking followed by either the node crashing or being manually rebooted. Recent server problems notwithstanding, this is really unacceptable.
IMHO it's time that CCP throttled back on some of the new features and instead concentrated on getting what's already there to actually work. New (and not so new) features are still very buggy (POSs and sovereignty spring to mind) and the basic ability of the game to handle a couple of hundred objects simultaneously still just isn't there. CCP has stated before that server load generally isn't that high, so personally I suspect it's the client that needs the most attention.
I'm a games programmer by day, so I know what I'm talking about. Most games can run a few thousand objects, AI, physics, FX, etc. and still maintain 30 fps, ie everything gets processed in <33ms. On the whole space games are considered particularly easy, as the rendering, physics and dynamics are all much simpler than say a first-person shooter. There's very little overdraw in the renderer, there's no need for any sort of PVS/vis system, most objects can be simple meshes or short-chain scene graphs, there's not much animation, no skinning, physics can be sphere-based collisions rather than complex poly-to-poly, there's no resting contact, there's not a lot of AI, no route finding to contend with, etc.
Take for example the turret FX, which you can (thankfully) now disable. In some cases like when a bunch of people are shooting a station this takes my frame rate from 5fps (ie 200ms/frame) to ~25fps (ie 40ms/fr). So the question is what on earth is the turret FX code doing that takes 160ms/fr? That is enough time for most games to run their entire processing load for 5 whole frames. If someone working for me wrote code that slow I'd probably fire them, or at least move them onto something they were better suited to.
I know most of CCP aren't games programmers, and in a way that's been a good thing, but client performance is where that lack of experience in code optimisation is really hurting you. Yes, the base frame rate has improved provided nothing's going on, but the scalability is still terrible, which points to both inefficient code and poor algoritmic time-complexity in some cases. My advice would be to bite the bullet and pay for someone good, even if you have to ship them in from the UK or wherever. Personally I'd start by getting a copy of VTune and running that over it, then fixing the most ridiculous hotspots. As a general strategy I think the more of the Stackless Python you can replace with C++ the better.
I think most people would put up with a feature freeze (or at least slowdown) if it meant the basics of the game, and the lag in particular, saw significant improvement.
/sign if you agree...
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Killmail wh÷re. |
Arbet Klallam
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Posted - 2005.07.25 20:45:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Arbet Klallam on 25/07/2005 20:45:56 Edited by: Arbet Klallam on 25/07/2005 20:45:31 /Signed
Ah dammit alt (main is Marrius Ritran)
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Xavier Zyrae
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Posted - 2005.07.25 20:46:00 -
[3]
Any improvement in FPS would be good. It's improved already since Exodus, but is still far from what it should be.
Signed.
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.07.25 20:48:00 -
[4]
I agree, but i think the main problem isn't client-side, but server side.
A good start would be to remove this incredibly arrogant line on the www.eve-online.com frontpage though:
Quote: New Online Record Yesterday, Sunday, you set a new online player record when 12.895 of you were playing at the same time! No reports of lag were reported, the 'cold war edition' seems to have yet again lessened the server load.
/Elve
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Deros
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Posted - 2005.07.25 21:31:00 -
[5]
i agree
D
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Zagum Darkfin
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Posted - 2005.07.25 21:36:00 -
[6]
/SIGNED
~~~~watches the devs fingers hover over this topic and then think "hey whats the point" and clicks the next topic down in the sea of issues.~~~~~
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JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2005.07.25 22:07:00 -
[7]
agree in general (fix existing stuff before moving on). Client is horrible! Very user-unfriendly and buggy... sorting, selection and other operations on lists of things (items in hangar for instance) handled very poorly. Dimensions of objects in space are bugged to the friggin hell - i sometimes simply can not find a spot to click without bringin up menu for a gate, planet or some other ship (while clearly clickin on empty space). Dont event get me started on alt-tab issue
____ When flying by Concord Customs Commander's Dominix I distinctly heard him saying "... world domination..." |
DJTheBaron
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Posted - 2005.07.25 23:01:00 -
[8]
as needed as the new features were, and to be honest as good as the last patch day was, despite breaking the petition system, the game runs like crap, i'd like to be able to run 2 accounts with ease again, otherwise the purpose of an alt to run online at the same time isnt worth paying for, and game mechanics and player stragety has turned into all out blob war, destroy blobs or acomodate them, simple
good game, great ideas, poor implimentation, soon tm just wont cut it anymore __________________________________________________
Scum, your all scum. |
LadyScarlet
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Posted - 2005.07.26 00:25:00 -
[9]
yup sign rather have my money spent on a working product not one loaded with bugs ( i know soemtiems they cant be helped) but we shoudl not be adding new stuff till the old stuff is fixed
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xOm3gAx
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Posted - 2005.07.26 01:02:00 -
[10]
/signed ----------------- *Decloaks and starts blasting your sig* Applesauce Biotch
~~~My Banner got nerfed~~~ But I still love the mods anyway
Succumb to your nightmares Darkness shall embrace you |
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Caeden Nicomachean
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Posted - 2005.07.26 02:53:00 -
[11]
/signed
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Clay101
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Posted - 2005.07.26 05:37:00 -
[12]
i hear alot about lag being decreased since Cold War ... well, yes ... and no.
yes, most are experiencing higher FPS - mine is approx 7-10 FPS higher than before ... but, that's only when i'm solo or in a small fleet.
i have read somewhere that CCP has stated that they want smaller engagements to be happening in-game - whoa whoa whoa - why should someone pay for a game where something (fleet battles) is possible, but, since the creators don't feel like fixing the issue, they (force) you to do otherwise by not fixing the problem? i'm paying for this game, the option for Large Fleets was their, and worked, now all of a sudden you decide you don't want it in the game anymore so i still have to pay to play, just i pay to play the game YOU want me to play, not the game i am paying for ...
this is the first MMOG i've played that is as kick-@ss as this - i would like to continue the fleet battles ...
in other words ... ... ... SIGNED Smacktalk Specialization Lvl 5
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Pegas
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Posted - 2005.07.26 07:51:00 -
[13]
I wasn`t there but heared that everything loaded up 10 min afterthe jump in .... /signed
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Trevize dk
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Posted - 2005.07.26 08:06:00 -
[14]
/Signed.
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Maule
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Posted - 2005.07.26 08:20:00 -
[15]
/signed
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aggro
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Posted - 2005.07.26 11:00:00 -
[16]
signed
fix things first and then add new features.
mark A was right sort out soveriegnty and things first
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
aggro
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Posted - 2005.07.26 11:00:00 -
[17]
signed
fix things first and then add new features.
mark A was right sort out soveriegnty and things first
Where there is trouble you will always find AGGRO |
Blitz0r
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Posted - 2005.07.26 11:12:00 -
[18]
Good post...
/Signed
M.Corp BPC Packages |
Caesar Avgvsta
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Posted - 2005.07.26 11:15:00 -
[19]
/Signed
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Schani Kratnorr
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Posted - 2005.07.26 11:19:00 -
[20]
I agree that something has to be done about the performance.
//signed -- "I am an expert in not caring. The trick is to stop giving a rat's ass about anyone else and start thinking about what YOU want, what YOU diserve, what the world ows YOU!" - Bender |
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.07.26 11:26:00 -
[21]
The flaw in this post is that it assumes that new content = coding, which is not the case.
I agree that there are some basic bugs that need fixing, and more optimisations are required.
However, content and coding are seperate issues, and I am sure that the programmers are working just as hard as the content guys ... but, at the end of the day, adding some stuff to a DB is always going to be faster than recoding parts of the software. This is why content seems to dominate, simply because it is quicker and more obvious. ______________________________________________
Pay or pray..er..prey..yeah, pray you aren't prey. Er, just pay. |
Cloned Mark
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Posted - 2005.07.26 11:45:00 -
[22]
S I G N E D -----------------------------
M. Corp |
ManOfHonor
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Posted - 2005.07.26 13:36:00 -
[23]
/signed _____________________________ Honor Glory And Strength! Honor Above Self Glory For Self Strength Of Self
(\_/)<- This Bunny Hates The Other Bunnies (^.^) (> <) |
10 Bears
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Posted - 2005.07.26 15:28:00 -
[24]
CCP -
Optimize your code!!!
Your 280mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes Serpentis Defender, wrecking for 230.4 damage. |
Mark A
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Posted - 2005.07.26 15:40:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Mark A on 26/07/2005 15:43:47
Good response - hopefully this thread might filter up to the people that matter...
Originally by: Avon The flaw in this post is that it assumes that new content = coding, which is not the case.
I agree that there are some basic bugs that need fixing, and more optimisations are required.
However, content and coding are seperate issues, and I am sure that the programmers are working just as hard as the content guys ... but, at the end of the day, adding some stuff to a DB is always going to be faster than recoding parts of the software. This is why content seems to dominate, simply because it is quicker and more obvious.
You're right up to a point. Content isn't all about coding, and generally you put your mid-grade programmers on that sort of stuff while your top guys work on the hard parts. However I've run development teams larger than CCP's entire staff base so trust me when I say these things are fixable, even if it means rebalancing staff requirements. Don't have enough uber-coders? Hire some more, even if you have to throw money at them. Can't find someone really good at code optimisation in Iceland? Ship someone in from the UK.
In the long term that's going to be much more cost-effective than losing users due to increasing frustration, or running the risk of "code rot" as the project continues to grow unabated without enough emphasis on maintenance and code correctness. Hell for enough cash I'd move to Reykjavik and sort it out for them... ____________________________________
Killmail wh÷re. |
Gunship
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Posted - 2005.07.26 16:56:00 -
[26]
signed
PS: Oustanding post ..lets hope it gets noticed
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BIRDofPREY
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Posted - 2005.07.26 17:34:00 -
[27]
Lag is not caused by the server, but by the game graphics...
Lag and Model post on EVE forums
They haven't done a thing about it since then, so they are not going to any time son Your 650mm Artillery Cannon I perfectly strikes Serpentis Guard, wrecking for 340.0 damage |
Fox'Ray
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Posted - 2005.07.26 21:49:00 -
[28]
/signed
Fox
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lolz0rb
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Posted - 2005.07.26 21:51:00 -
[29]
/Sighned
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Galliana Foresta
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Posted - 2005.07.26 22:02:00 -
[30]
/signed.
Seriously, EVE usually 4t3hw1n, but this is starting to get ridiculous.
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