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Naverin
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Posted - 2005.07.26 23:53:00 -
[1]
I have been thinking very heavily on the barge line of ships recently and have come to really dislike them.
A. On an industrial site you see huge Earth moving bulldozers and dump trucks.. Made of the hardest materials possible so they can withstand the riggors of Extended use under heavy operating conditions.. literally the Giant Dumptrucks you see on construction sites could probably Run over a military tank and crush it..
Now.. This is probably the extreme of an industrial Vech..
Now.. take for example the Covetor the biggest baddest industrial Vech we have ingame atm.
My question is. Why is it made of aluminum? I mean literally.. a rat in 0.0 looks at it.. and it dies.
The reason im asking. For such an amazing peice of industrial equipment.. why is it so weak?. Shouldnt it have the PG/Cpu of a Battleship with the Armor/slots to accomodate 0.0 armor tanking for industrial operations?.
Yes 0.0 mining should be a group effort. But.. take today for example. A tanked Bship was tanking a cruiser/cepter spawn today while mining.. He CTD and 4 cepters rushed the 4 barges on site... 2 of us got out of the belt by luckily not being targeted.
now Im not asking to be able to tank Bships with my Barge.. but being able to tank small cruiser spawns would be nice.
I would like others to post their Thoughts on the Idea behind barges and whther or not you would like them to be able to mine in 0.0 via "tanking" The spawn.
Ps. I understand people are going to say They need protection blah blah dont use them without it.. Well what if for example like above.. the protection CTD or goes Link dead or has to leave...
Barges should have to some extent the ability to survive in 0.0 spawns IE.. cepters/frigs/cruiser npcs..
Please post your thoughts and Try not to post unless making a point for or against Barges being turned into Industrial Barges and being tough as nails for 0.0 mining.
Thanks for taking the time to read.
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Tallena Curie
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Posted - 2005.07.27 00:02:00 -
[2]
No bulldozer or piece of heavy industrial equipment would survive a rocket propelled grenade, or a shot from a 102mm gun. You might have to fire twice, though. Maybe.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.07.27 00:50:00 -
[3]
What you're describing may come alone sometime (after all, we now have heavy-duty industrials like the Gallente's Occator and Viator, which can operate under a lot more danger than any Iteron) ... but the barges that are out now are Tech 1, so from a game-balancing point of view, it makes sense that they make great rock hoovers but have armor made out of wet ricepaper.
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I tried strip mining, but I lost and it's cold flying around in space naked. |
Vaaliant
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Posted - 2005.07.27 00:57:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Tallena Curie
No bulldozer or piece of heavy industrial equipment would survive a rocket propelled grenade, or a shot from a 102mm gun. You might have to fire twice, though. Maybe.
Obviously you've never seen a D-9. 
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Tallena Curie
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Posted - 2005.07.27 01:07:00 -
[5]
Oh, those military dozers? Yeah, but those are specifically military modifications, and this guy is talking about making vanilla barges hardened.
I'm all for another barge that's got a tradeoff of protection vs. production, but messing with the current ships is a Bad Idea(tm).
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Allen Deckard
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Posted - 2005.07.27 01:22:00 -
[6]
sorry a d-9 is not military.
Nor is the d-12 that I drive. Not unlike may of the military vehicles I drove during my service in 2 wars.
Except maybe that my d-12 is much tougher. Not as fast but then again much tougher. 
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Rayisa
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Posted - 2005.07.27 01:38:00 -
[7]
Ever seen a barge hit a bridge? Bridge usually wins. A RL (hey, real life comparisons were already made :) barge is nothing but a shell for hauling stuff. Most of the time they can't even move by themselves. Multi-Ton container ship on the other hand... bridges tend to move out of their way. That all being said... T1 not being sturdy was already mentioned, maybe a T2 barge could be the "Military Conversion" Hauler, Industrial, Large (Mk. 2 Mod. 1). Or even, T2 could be equal to the huge container ships out there.
"Big, Strong, WOW!" |
Tallena Curie
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Posted - 2005.07.27 01:38:00 -
[8]
The D-9 is used by the IDF, the US Marines and the US Army. They buy them from Caterpillar and heavily modify them to be very difficult to stop (reactive armor, bulletproof glass, machine gun nests..etc.). I know it has a civilian role, but if we're talking about how functional a dozer or other industrial vehicle is under fire, the vanilla D-9 won't cut it.
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Derron Bel
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Posted - 2005.07.27 01:40:00 -
[9]
Perhaps the light mining barge can be upgraded into a armored mining barge, bumping its cost up but giving it an actual role.
-==-
Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise!
LooseCannoN> ahh!
LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled! |
Noriath
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Posted - 2005.07.27 01:55:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Noriath on 27/07/2005 01:58:12
If you are building the ultimate mining ship for a universe where you're constantly being shot at, you wouldn't just leave out a certain measure of armor...
In general in Eve, you can't defend ships that simply have no HP, because if they get aggro thei're gone before you can do anything. Especially when defending something against players it's completly pointless if they can just blow up whatever you're trying to defend in a second so the escorts pose hardly any real danger...
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Tallena Curie
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Posted - 2005.07.27 02:13:00 -
[11]
What I don't understand is why you would only bring one person along for an escort in a place that dangerous? Especially 1 BS guarding 4 Covetors...How did you think that you could get away with that? What if a couple PC pirates came along? The whole op would have been toast instead of just two of you.
I'm kind of in "Told ya so" mode here, but I don't think poor planning for an op should automatically mean there's something wrong with the ship that got blasted.
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Lickity Split
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Posted - 2005.07.27 02:55:00 -
[12]
I agree with Naverin they should be tougher.
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Rafein
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Posted - 2005.07.27 02:59:00 -
[13]
I do agree, all Barges should get some armor added on, most Industrials have a decent amount.
And definatly need tech 2, "0.0" miner ships, with more PG/CPU, few more med/low slots, and a lot more armor, at the cost of ship speed.
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Wreckage
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Posted - 2005.07.27 04:11:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Wreckage on 27/07/2005 04:13:08
Edited by: Wreckage on 27/07/2005 04:11:58
Signed.
I fly my barges in .5, .4 and 0.0 and I do it with no defenders and 2 warp core stabs on the barge. The point that if someone comes in to kill a barge they'll kill it is accurate. Doesn't matter if you have defenders. You can't tell me that the people who design ships in eve don't have some idea that maybe they might need to do their job under fire. Honestly a barge can't put up a fight, at least make it able to live/escape. In my opinion crank the low slots, PG, and CPU up. Let us armor tank the heck out of em. Who's that really gonna hurt? It's not like there's gonna be damage mods in those lows.
Edits: Apparently I can't spell at this time of night.
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Naverin
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Posted - 2005.07.27 04:12:00 -
[15]
Quote:
What I don't understand is why you would only bring one person along for an escort in a place that dangerous? Especially 1 BS guarding 4 Covetors...How did you think that you could get away with that? What if a couple PC pirates came along? The whole op would have been toast instead of just two of you.
The 1 Bship wasnt for escort.. it was simply for "Tanking the spawn" Had he not CTD.. we wouldnt have had a problem but we cant always predict that kinda stuff.. now Even if we had a 2nd Bships there.. THe odds are with 5 more ships in the belts.. 4 barges 1 bship... a barge will have been targetd by the cepters and warp scrambled. so thats not a valid arguement.
Now for the PC Pirate ... ill give you a little secrit... when your 60 jumps from empire space... you dont get Pirates =)
Again id like to reiterate.. Not asking for Bship tanking ability... but surly cruiser ability.. I mean.. I can tank 0.0 cruiser/frig spawns in an omen with ease.. I feel a Huge barge such as the covetor Should have the same Tanking ability of at least a cruiser.
but then again thats why i made the thread.. To hear peoples opinions on barges and their 0.0 usefullness as well as what they would like to see out of them.
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Naverin
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Posted - 2005.07.27 17:14:00 -
[16]
to page 1 for views and input
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Astarte Nosferatu
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Posted - 2005.07.27 17:29:00 -
[17]
When you are mining in 0.0, you always align your ship to a planet or moon. When you fly something like a barge, you warp out when npc's spawn and let your support handle it.
Having 1 bs tank while 4 Covetors mine is cheap, and I hope next time you do it all your ships get destroyed.
Barges are fine, no need to mess with them, and that's coming from someone that flies a Covetor with 3 modulated strip miners II fitted.
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Member of the [23]
Follower of the Blood Revolution.
Sani Sabik. |
Ikvar
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Posted - 2005.07.27 17:31:00 -
[18]
Maybe they could make Heavy Assault Mining Barges 
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EvilSyKOSkitzo
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Posted - 2005.07.27 18:14:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Ikvar
Maybe they could make Heavy Assault Mining Barges
Hahaha..
Umm, looking at the D-12..
Maybe it could survive a rocket propelled grenade but not a 102mm round.
The guy inside the cabin would be a human form of jelly after one round.
- Evil
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Jack Brimstone
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Posted - 2005.07.27 18:17:00 -
[20]
I do agree that either t2 barges - not neccessarily with more ore extraction capability, but with better resists/armour are required for low sec / 0.0 operation as the existing barges are just paper thin.
If t2 barges arent planned, then the t1 versions need an armour buff imo. You can't effectively defend something that fragile if an attacker is just out to cause damage and flee (or in the npc situation Naverin describes, they shouldn't die immediately to npc ceptors). No amount of remote reppers will really help when there is not much to rep in the first place.
I understand why the devs made them weakish - to promote teamwork and possibly to prevent an situation where players make ingenious and unforseen use of them (nossing gank barges anyone? ) , but really they need to be defensible long enough for escorts to step in or for them to align and warp out.
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Magunus
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Posted - 2005.07.27 18:32:00 -
[21]
Capital Barges! 10 or 20m3, 6 high slots for strip miners or ice harvesters, maybe a couple lows, and a couple mids. Just give them 2k shields and 30k armor and 30k hull. Put some WCS in the lows so you always (er, usually) warp out, and resists wont matter so much. Give them a decent drone bay so they can swap 10 mining drones for 10 scout drones if they need to kill of something scrambling them. Add in a bonus for mining laser ranges as well as amounts, so they don't have to move so much. They'd probably cost a bil, though.  Probably be worth it though. If you put a 50% per level bonus on mining laser ranges, you'd be able to mine out to, what?, 65km? That'd be nice for the haulers.
Oh, and I would NEVER fly this. 
---
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-- Douglas Adams, 'The Restaurant at the End of the Universe' |
Ronzap
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Posted - 2005.07.27 18:57:00 -
[22]
You get what you pay for, want a mining barge that has the resilience of a battleship, expect to pay 250mil for it.
Made me think though, for building things, what if I could choose to put 20% more minerals in and get better options, e.g. more armor etc..
Might make the game more interesting, as there'd be a lot more granularity on what a ship was capable of, and it might not be easily spotted that my megathron was built with double the minerals and so had a 20% bonus to armor & 20% bonus to hull (as an example).
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Sumica
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Posted - 2005.07.27 19:35:00 -
[23]
In that situtiton it would't have matterd if he had 4Bs'es flying escort for the op, The new rats have the tendincay to target the weakist ships they see so as soon as the ship that had all the agro left they would start looking for targets and the barges would be it. How ever I fly a barge in ops and defenatly you need to be ready for the warp out. Normaly you should be mineing on the far side of the belt from the NPC's, 40+km and always watch for you tank to CTD.
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Eva Cenlentay
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Posted - 2005.07.27 19:47:00 -
[24]
An armored mining barge would be good. Dont mess with the current ones, just some nice Tech 2 ones...
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Freada
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Posted - 2005.07.27 21:12:00 -
[25]
Remember, in Eve everything is about balance. The barge mines better so has less defense. A BS mines a bit less but can take much better care of itself. In order to make barges tuff you would have to nerf thier mining ability as the trade off. I can live with the barges flimsy excuse for a defense if it means I can mine more ore. I'll just use a BS to mine in harder areas.
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Miri Tirzan
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Posted - 2005.07.27 21:43:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Freada
Remember, in Eve everything is about balance. The barge mines better so has less defense. A BS mines a bit less but can take much better care of itself. In order to make barges tuff you would have to nerf thier mining ability as the trade off. I can live with the barges flimsy excuse for a defense if it means I can mine more ore. I'll just use a BS to mine in harder areas.
Where do you come up with this stuff? If CCP want people to move towards 0.0 then the barges need to be revamped so that they can survive. There is nothing in the game that says if you are going to be good at mining you must be poor at defending. An apoc is nearly is an effective a miner as a large barge... so it gets nerfed?
svetlana - "whining gets you stuff. that is why humans got to the top of the food chain and all the other animals got nerfed."
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Drosssk
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Posted - 2005.07.27 22:09:00 -
[27]
go buy a Moros, problem solved.
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Derron Bel
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Posted - 2005.07.27 22:42:00 -
[28]
Noo, I don't think they should be able to tank, just able to take hits.
-==-
Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise!
LooseCannoN> ahh!
LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled! |
Naverin
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Posted - 2005.07.29 01:57:00 -
[29]
So yeah guess barge talks wasnt that popular...
Shame.. was hoping to ralley the community into helping the barge be changed for the better of all 0.0 industrialists
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Gigi Barbagrigia
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Posted - 2005.07.29 07:29:00 -
[30]
Sorry mate but have to agree with majority. T2 ones with good res's and some shield buff; I'd even grant you built in WCS or two but with lower yield, yes. Present ones no. It's already bit much you can mine solo in 0.6.
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