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Uh, did my crew just go squish?

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Faulx Brother Fox Corp 123	Posted - 2013.02.17 03:15:00 - [1] - Quote So, it occurred to me, while I was re-reading about pod goo and ship crews. We capsuleers are protected against high G-Force by immersion in thick fluid, but what's protecting the crew (and passengers)? So I decided to crunch some numbers... obviously interceptors and super fast accelerating frigates would have be made to be pod only (despite the guidelines). So I decided to look at the next level up, a very fast cruiser. Enter the Stabber. Stabber (min crew, 10 GÇô 50) 11,400,000 kg mass 0.48 agi 3 low slots 3 mid slots 231 m/sec base speed timeToWarp=7.586 seconds Now we need something to guide our G-Force calculations... let's use align time to warp: Algn Time Formula TimeToWarp = -ln(0.25) +ù Mass_kg +ù Agility / 1000000 There are, of course, a world of modules and skills to modify these numbers (let's ignore rigs, just cause I hate diminishing returns past 3) : Ship Modules: Nanofiber Internal Structure II -15.8 % agi (-13.746% 1 dim) (-9.006% 2 dim) (-0.3391481767208% cumulative 3 modules) 9.4 % velc (8.178% 1 dim) (5.358% 2 dim) (24.68774990056% cumulative 3 modules) 10MN Afterburner II 135% max velc (168.75% w/skills) 5,000,000 kg mass addition (changes 3.76 sec TTW to 5.41 sec) 50% overload speed bonus (total 253.125% speed bonus w/skills) (total 335.00% with max fleet boost) (502.49% with Overload) Skills: Acceleration Control 5% per level to AB (and mwd) speed Navigation 5% per level to ship speed Evasive Maneuvering -5% per level to agi Skirmish Warfare -2% per level to agi (or flat 15% with mind link) Warfare Link Specialist 10% per level to links Skirmish Warfare Specialist 100% per level to link modules Fleet Boosting: Claymore 3% per commandship level to skrim links Skirmish Warfare Mindlink Effect: 50% increase to the command bonus of Skirmish Warfare Link modules. Replaces skirmish warfare skill bonus with fixed 15% agility bonus. Skirmish Warfare Link II - Rapid Deployment (no link?) base 2.5% to afterburner (and mwd) speed (12.5% with skirm spec > 18.75% with link spec > 21.5625% with claymore > 32.34375% with mindlink) As a quick aside to theoretical physics... I don't use a MWD here because by bending space "warp" does not cause acceleration in the same way as thrust does... theoretically anyway. So then... the base stats on our Stabber change a bit with all these modifications: 231 m/sec base speed (361.0 w/skills) (450.1 w/skills + 3x NISII) (2,261.71 m/s, w/skills + max OL a/b + max fleet boost to a/b) timeToWarp=7.586 seconds (5.689 w/skills) (3.76 w/skills+ 3x NISII) (5.41 s with a/b online) (4.5985 sec with mindlinked fleet bonus) Thus, during our Stabbers acceleration from 0 m/s to warp speed (i.e. 75% of max) we have: 0 to 75% of 2261.71 = 1,696.28 m/s in 4.5985 seconds... This is an average acceleration of 1,696.2806175 / 4.5985 = 368.88 m/s/s.... which is roughly 37.6 Gs. Note that this is an underestimate of the maximum acceleration since, in Eve, speed accumulates logarithmically (due to "forth dimensional drag" or some such nonsense), thus the acceleration in the first second is quite a lot higher than in the remaining few. *Edit: Ugh... I just remembered some weirdness with the effects of AB mass vs. thrust.. I suspect I've flubbed the max speed a bit,... still, it should be ballpark.
Faulx Brother Fox Corp 123	Posted - 2013.02.17 03:15:00 - [2] - Quote But how would this affect a crew? Let's take a glancing look at some contemporary !!!science!!!. Enter John Paul Stapp. In order to understand how pulling G's in an airplane affected pilots, this fine Air Force physician strapped himself to a rocket chair and subjected himself to dozens of incrementally higher accelerations up to a maximum of 46.2 Gs (squish... belted to a chair). In the course of the experiments he broke wrists, ribs, and suffered detached retinas along with other injuries. The most important thing he and his fellow scientists learned was the importance of being strapped in (thus came car seat belts): "By riding the decelerator sled himself, Stapp demonstrated that a human can withstand at least 45 g (440 m/s-¦) in the forward position, with adequate harness. This is the highest known acceleration voluntarily encountered by a human. Stapp believed that the tolerance of humans to acceleration had not yet been reached in tests, and is much greater than ordinarily thought possible." The key words here being, "with adequate harness". They also decided that facing backwards while decelerating was far better than forwards... they told the Airlines about this... yet we all still ride forwards boggle. Anyway... it's clear that a 37.6 G deceleration would be... "bad'... for any crew that wasn't strapped down... and, given how capricious capsuleers can be about when they want to accelerate,... that crew had better be always strapped down. Even then, I suspect injuries,... and vomit would be plentiful. God forbid you should have crew aboard an interceptor or the like, I suspect they would be jelly before long. Obviously there is some kind of "inertial dampening at work if the crews are able to survive these types of accelerations." So my question with all this is.... "Given that accleration doesn't seem to be a problem for ship crews, then, aside from the whole Immortal bit and the enhanced ship function, is there really any reason for pilots to be required to rely on a "hardline" connection to their ship." Surely they could exert some remote control with the right implant/transmitter?"
Kalanaja Dog Nation United Relativity Alliance 34	Posted - 2013.02.17 06:55:00 - [3] - Quote It would have to be artificial gravity fields. Though earlier ships would not have had it.
Tavin Aikisen Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive 137	Posted - 2013.02.17 09:56:00 - [4] - Quote Intertial Dampers? #StarTrek #seatbeltsonthebridge In all seriousness a lot of these numbers won't make sense. Neither will the actual acceleration of these vehicles given the engine placement. Looking at those asymmetrical ships in particular. But as far as justification as already pointed out, artificial gravity fields and other sci-fi gadgets are the best explanation you can really get. Remember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home. -Cold Wind
Saede Riordan Alexylva Paradox 3266	Posted - 2013.02.17 13:23:00 - [5] - Quote Quote: So my question with all this is.... "Given that acceleration doesn't seem to be a problem for ship crews, then, aside from the whole Immortal bit and the enhanced ship function, is there really any reason for pilots to be required to rely on a 'hardline' connection to their ship? Surely they could walk around on-board exerting some remote control with the right implant/transmitter?" To a very very rough degree a capsuleer could control their ship from outside of the pod (I generally will RP this as turning the autopilot on and off and nothing else.) However, when a capsuleer is in the pod to a certain degree they become the ship. The hull becomes their skin, the camera drones become their eyes, the ship becomes their body. Its this that allows the capsuleer the huge amount of tactical flexibility as compared to baseliner ships. Your pilot is the ship itself. Torn from grace, gotta find your faith or the devils gonna claim your soul
Marcion Cravik Phoibe Enterprises Project Wildfire 7	Posted - 2013.02.17 14:44:00 - [6] - Quote I'm no physicist, but I'm sure you can't apply standard acceleration calculations to propulsion techniques surpassing the speed of light with warpspace stuff that let's you fly through planets.
Faulx Brother Fox Corp 124	Posted - 2013.02.17 15:07:00 - [7] - Quote Heh, I didn't. This was all afterburner.
Saul Elsyn Sturmvogel Squadron 58	Posted - 2013.02.17 19:22:00 - [8] - Quote Inertial compensation is your friend... considering that New Eden has ground troops that can leap out of a deployment craft a couple hundred meters up and land unharmed, you don't need to worry about that.
Esna Pitoojee Wolfsbrigade Lost Obsession 246	Posted - 2013.02.17 20:14:00 - [9] - Quote At one point there was a bug which could cause your ships to do a spontaneous 360 degree spin "horizontally". I did some calculations for amusement and found that a crewmember at either end of my Apocalypse was probably experiencing about 50 Gs of acceleration the moment the thing started to spin, and another 50 Gs when it stopped. But yes - inertial dampeners are your friend.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen Unicorn Enterprise 63	Posted - 2013.02.18 01:59:00 - [10] - Quote The main reason for why capsuleers can execute maneuvers unthinkable by the conventional crews is the lack of person-to-person and sensors-to-brain-to-hand-to-interface-to-ship communications. With capsule it is, how Saede Riordan duly noted, much quicker - brain-to-ship directly - bypassing the many levels that can and do introduce a lag between the brain commands and ship's responses, hance a lot of new maneuvers become possible, especially for larger ships where commander and pilot are different persons and actually commanding a ship involves a lot of person-to-person communications. As for the g-forces, :artificial gravity fields: my inquisitive friend. If Caldari can manufacture torpedoes with graviton pulse generators to cause massive gravitational shockwaves, why can't gravity fields be generated inside the ships as well?
YuuKnow boom-town 651	Posted - 2013.02.19 05:37:00 - [11] - Quote Faulx wrote: So, it occurred to me, while I was re-reading about pod goo and ship crews. Who wrote that silly Eve crew article? IMHO the lore is better if there were no crew at all... only the goo, onboard robots, and armies of nanites. yk
Faulx Brother Fox Corp 125	Posted - 2013.02.19 07:27:00 - [12] - Quote Heh, they left the whole "crew aboard ship" debate up in the air for years before coming down definitively on it. From a storytelling-in-space perspective it's really quite necessary. But from a "damsel in distress" perspective any passengers you pick up in really fast ships are likely to become fatalities if they're not cryonicly frozen as soon as they board (without "inertial dampeners". If Eve is ever going to go beyond space ships (which it should) walking on ships is a good thing.
Stitcher Re-Awakened Technologies Inc 908	Posted - 2013.02.19 14:42:00 - [13] - Quote Inertial stabilisers are a module in the game that increase your ship's agility. I think it's safe to assume that your ships are fitted with some version of them by default anyway otherwise accelerating to warp speeds in excess of 2,000 times the speed of light in less than 20 seconds would not only crush the crew, it'd rip the ship apart as the warp engine accelerated right out of it and left the rest of the vessel behind to become a cloud of metal shards, with some of those shards moving a good few thousand kilometers per second. So: EVE ships have inertial compensation fields. Probably, even the most violent combat maneuvers don't even produce enough G-forces to spill a cup of water. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
Faulx Brother Fox Corp 125	Posted - 2013.02.19 14:50:00 - [14] - Quote Theoretically, warp is a whole 'nother drink of water. Warp changes the tensor metric of the space around your ship so that your normal ion/propellent based "thrusters" will more drastically alter your speed. Thus the inertial mechanics of warp are no worse than non-afterburner propulsion. The warp corridor is not unlike going through a wormhole, so, because the space around you has been (for lack of a better word) "depleted", a small "thrust" moves you through a large swath of space, while still only feeling like a small thrust.
Stitcher Re-Awakened Technologies Inc 908	Posted - 2013.02.19 14:53:00 - [15] - Quote so there's your inertial compensator right there. It's established that the reason ships in EVE have a maximum speed is because their warp drive is always turned on (on the grounds that the field implodes and results in a big-ass bang that destroys the ship when the warp field generator loses power) and the warp field produces "drag" against the curvature of spacetime. So, the ship isn't accelerating through space so much as remaining stationary and uniformly aligned inside its own little private bubble of space/time which it then scoots around in the old fashioned way by chucking reaction mass out the back. Yay for applied phlebotinum! An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
Faulx Brother Fox Corp 125	Posted - 2013.02.19 15:10:00 - [16] - Quote The only problem with that is the 0 point: having a 0 speed retaliative to... what? You're being dragged to a "halt" sure, but dragged against what and who says that it's not moving? There is no absolute reference frame. Groping for explanations we might guess you're speed is being dragged to a halt relative to the largest gravitational source in the system: the local star (not that jump gates, wormholes, and Amarrian graviton drives wouldn't confuse that). But what if you're closer to a planet? Then it would be "larger", from your perspective. But, again once you're "halted", wouldn't you fall down the gravitational gradient? Drag would be very, very bad then for maintaining orbit... of course things like that would be a lot more convincing if the planets/moons were actually moving in their orbits (would make for nicer views too.. but the technical challenges of implementing it in-game are apparently... large).
Montevius Williams Eclipse Industrial Inc 397	Posted - 2013.02.21 02:56:00 - [17] - Quote I've always thought it was due to inertia dampners. I'm sure there is some tecnobabble to explain it. "The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Stitcher Re-Awakened Technologies Inc 931	Posted - 2013.02.21 15:13:00 - [18] - Quote There is a thing, it does good stuff to stop the bad stuff from happening. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
YuuKnow Boom-Town 657	Posted - 2013.02.22 00:09:00 - [19] - Quote Faulx wrote: If Eve is ever going to go beyond space ships (which it should) walking on ships is a good thing. Meh. Too much of a Star Trek, Star Wars cliche with 'walking on ships'. Hard fiction is more interesting. CCP got it right with camera drones and pod goo. Go the way of the 'cruise liner in space' and it becomes just another rehash of the same old space operas. Better to stay unique and try hugging the unique rather than overdone and rehashed. yk
Agustice Arterius Couch Athletics 17	Posted - 2013.02.22 02:23:00 - [20] - Quote You lost me at the first number. I'll just say: CCP
LOL56 Galactic Express 37	Posted - 2013.02.22 10:27:00 - [21] - Quote The ships with the highest accelerations and lowest turning times are frigates and most (but not all) frigates are operated solely by the pilot, and since the stats in-game only apply to ships flow by us, pod pilots, they take into account the cushioning effects of the pod goo on it's occupant.
Eija-Riitta Veitonen Unicorn Enterprise 63	Posted - 2013.02.22 14:07:00 - [22] - Quote Even frigates have crew, according to the official sources...
LOL56 Galactic Express 37	Posted - 2013.02.22 17:47:00 - [23] - Quote I assumed the 1-3 man crew requirement was inclusive of the pilot, and that the most agile frigates were those without non-pilot crew. Those 2 and 3 man crews are probably for EAFs, Bombers, Cov Ops and the T1 Logi line, which are relatively slow and have complex or unusual equipment regularly fitted, whereas the relatively agile and simplistic attack and interceptor type ships are solo jobs. Then again, I'm just shooting form the hip hear, could be totally wrong.
Faulx Brother Fox Corp 126	Posted - 2013.02.23 08:07:00 - [24] - Quote That's precisely why I did my analysis with a very fast cruiser: the minimum crew is 10-50 people (and lets not forget passengers in the cargo bay: Damsel in Distress).... And in the worst case scenario they're pulling enough G's to fracture bones while strapped in.
Vraela Estidal Future Faction Miners 0	Posted - 2013.03.11 03:39:00 - [25] - Quote Faulx wrote: Heh, they left the whole "crew aboard ship" debate up in the air for years before coming down definitively on it. From a storytelling-in-space perspective it's really quite necessary. But from a "damsel in distress" perspective any passengers you pick up in really fast ships are likely to become fatalities if they're not cryonicly frozen as soon as they board (without "inertial dampeners". If Eve is ever going to go beyond space ships (which it should) walking on ships is a good thing. Amen.
Sonkut Network Gel Strategic Alliance 2	Posted - 2013.03.15 14:25:00 - [26] - Quote I would like to point out some perceptions i've made of eve, and that is, the ships we use are actually very slow. Consider a basic interceptor is doing 5000M/s.... The speed of the space shuttle's escape velocity is 10,000m/s just to reach escape velocity. Most of our ships operate in the 100m/s - 1000m/s.... slow. If we have astronauts able to handle getting off this planet on the top of a large explosive device, i can bet you in the future with inertial dampeners and anti-grav fields etc, there wouldn't be a problem Pod goo: it's a ship not much larger than a person, it's most likely a lot easier to use goo to dampen inertia than to make a device small enough for a ship like that. Or at least cross that with a small device that's not quite effective enough. The fittings to this ship are most likely irrelevant whilst it's held within another ship. Also, i didn't read most of the other posts so i expect my post is already covered.
Stegas Tyrano GLU CANU Open Space Consultancy 264	Posted - 2013.03.15 16:21:00 - [27] - Quote What do crews do? I doubt they'd be walking corridors delivering memo's :P. I assume everything like heavy loading and checking components is automated or done remotely. Crews are strapped in to monitor specific situations that even a computer AI couldn't handle. Crewman aboard ship's are expected to have short life expectancy and it'd also be easy to assume they've undergone some extreme , thetraining and drilling to prepare them for spaceship work. For example when a ship is expected to accelerate, the quick flash of a red LED notifies them to brace in their 4 point seat belted chairs. Also according to EVE: The Empyrean Age the effects of warp make people on ships that arn't capsuleers, really sick, also take into account the fact that they were in a lynx class frigate which is supposedly really bad. [PROPOSAL] INGAME ADVERTS FOR PLAYERS
Katran Luftschreck Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps 1118	Posted - 2013.03.15 19:50:00 - [28] - Quote This is normally when an ISD comes over and says the words "Fluidic Space" ... which is CCP-speak for "It's magic! Ooooh!" EvE is like prison.-á It's a place when bad people go to learn how to become even worse people.
Pieter Tuulinen Pyre Falcon Defence Cadre XV-01A Pyre Falcon Defence Combine 513	Posted - 2013.03.17 06:51:00 - [29] - Quote Usually I just wave a hand and say in a spooky voice "It is Joooooooooooooovian Technoooooooooology."
Keitunen Eto Uchusen Technologies 0	Posted - 2013.03.17 07:12:00 - [30] - Quote If I recall the crews are baseline crews. The Modules themselves also add crew. Weapons add firing teams to reload and maintain the guns. Warp stabilizers and Afterburners bring aboard extra engineers and things. That is if I recall reading correctly.

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