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Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
57
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Posted - 2013.02.21 19:00:00 -
[31] - Quote
It is true, mister Murn. Even if the government and many Minmatar capsuleers are united and respectful of their religion and background, there are many extremists who aren't (like the Murientor Tribe).
I do agree that shuttle fare would be a better option than weapons, since I doubt the latter would even make it past Republic customs. Though it would also require additional money to get started in whatever empire they wished to settle in. |
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
57
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Posted - 2013.02.21 19:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
Tabor Murn wrote:Katran Luftschreck wrote:
So with one option... you may buy them some time spent living in fear & terror before they are eventually massacred. .
If it is true that such people live in fear & terror in Republic space, they enjoy the freedom to leave. Can the fearful oppressed of the Empire claim the same? Maybe instead of armaments, Mr. Crow should be distributing InterBus fare.
Faithful within the Republic also enjoy freedom to choose their religion, as per Republic law. They enjoy the right to self-defence . I am merely seeking to improve their preparedness to defend those rights and freedoms Minmatar Republic affords them. Whether that be against a bigoted mob intent on violating their personal safety for excersicing those rights or a slew of illegal slavers caring one whit who they take in order to profit.
Quite frankly. suggesting that those of Amarrian faith should refrain from excersising their rights because someone might break Republics laws if they do? Unseemly blaming of those who would be the victims of criminals in such a scenario.
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Tabor Murn
Gradient
Electus Matari
14
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Posted - 2013.02.21 19:20:00 -
[33] - Quote
I never claimed anything of the sort Mr. Crow.
I pointed out that the people you are attempting to aid are free to travel elsewhere if they do not like their current environment. A freedom that cannot be claimed by many within the Empire.
Yes they are also free to believe whatever they wish. A freedom that cannot be claimed by any within the Empire. They are also free to arm themselves in self defense. I believe small arms are illegal in the Empire, so that would be another freedom that this supposedly at risk community enjoys in Republic space that similar communities could not claim within the Empire.
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Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
57
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Posted - 2013.02.21 19:35:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tabor Murn wrote:I never claimed anything of the sort Mr. Crow.
I pointed out that the people you are attempting to aid are free to travel elsewhere if they do not like their current environment. A freedom that cannot be claimed by many within the Empire.
Yes they are also free to believe whatever they wish. A freedom that cannot be claimed by any within the Empire. They are also free to arm themselves in self defense. I believe small arms are illegal in the Empire, so that would be another freedom that this supposedly at risk community enjoys in Republic space that similar communities could not claim within the Empire.
And this charitable event is intended to aid those who choose to live and practice the Amarrian faith within the Republic, as you have agreed is perfectly within their rights under Republic law. Your opinions on the societies of Greater Amarrian Empire are not relevant for this discussion.
Perhaps you could seek your alliances support for these law-abiding inhabitants of the Republic, as I have stated I am not turning away any helpful donations. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
420
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Posted - 2013.02.21 20:34:00 -
[35] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Natalcya Katla wrote:Anabella Rella wrote:I think you're confusing the Republic for somewhere else, pilot. We Matari have never set ourselves up as the "chosen" of mankind or the arbiters of all morality. We've never glassed a planet from orbit in order to prove a point. We've never invaded peaceful planets and enslaved billions of people. We've never rounded up entire groups and marched them off to be murdered because of their beliefs or ethnicity. Such short memories you Central Empires have. To be fair, Natalcya, they never expected us to retain things within living memory.
It does not only applies to Stain.
Sarum Prime, Kor Azor Prime, Jarizza... For the invading bit, at least, since the enslavement was more akin of a genocide than anything else.
Pots and kettles. |
Alizabeth Vea
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
244
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Posted - 2013.02.21 22:49:00 -
[36] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Natalcya Katla wrote:Anabella Rella wrote:I think you're confusing the Republic for somewhere else, pilot. We Matari have never set ourselves up as the "chosen" of mankind or the arbiters of all morality. We've never glassed a planet from orbit in order to prove a point. We've never invaded peaceful planets and enslaved billions of people. We've never rounded up entire groups and marched them off to be murdered because of their beliefs or ethnicity. Such short memories you Central Empires have. To be fair, Natalcya, they never expected us to retain things within living memory.
Killing a Nationite has the same moral implication as stepping on a bug. When the combined empires fought against Nation the first time, they had to glass planets to eliminate an infestation, not to prove a point, as the Amarr did at Starkman Prime.
Staff Writer: themittani.com -á
If you are going anywhere else to get your Eve News, you are wrong.
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Natalcya Katla
Naqam
Shaktipat Revelators
95
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Posted - 2013.02.21 23:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
Alizabeth Vea wrote:Killing a Nationite has the same moral implication as stepping on a bug. When the combined empires fought against Nation the first time, they had to glass planets to eliminate an infestation, not to prove a point, as the Amarr did at Starkman Prime.
Watch the bee calling others bugs. |
Gosakumori Noh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
104
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Posted - 2013.02.22 00:52:00 -
[38] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote:I believe someone once said, Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. I support your initiative and will make contributions to it when I am able.
Huh. Well, she doesn't have the plumbing I had in mind... and she's not on the ground.... but she is a Sebiestor, and so I think it must be Heaven's will that I make good on my second pledge. Best wishes!
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Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
980
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Posted - 2013.02.22 01:14:00 -
[39] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:I think you're confusing the Republic for somewhere else, pilot.
Actually, no I'm not. You don't read the news much, do you?
"A Brutor Tribe-owned Minmatar refugee settlement in Abudban endured a violent riot last night, during which visiting Starkmanir Sage Uldas Dreeter was killed by anti-theists who were protesting his public services"
"PATOR - The Minmatar People's Theatre's main stage was bombed this morning, only a few short hours after the opening night of controversial play GÇÿPlantation.GÇÖ "
"Pashanai - The Bloody Hands of Matar, one of the most notorious terrorist organizations in New Eden, has come forward to claim responsibility for the massive explosion on a Ministry of War station at Pashanai III earlier today which claimed the lives of just under 5600 people and destroyed several billion ISK's worth of infrastructure."
"Pator GÇô Abel Jarek, the leader of the Salvation Crusade, a movement of former slaves preaching the Amarrian faith, died yesterday during an attack by masked vigilantes in the township he founded for his followers in the Tronhadar Valley region of Matar."
"Illuin - Scope News has just obtained confirmation of the mass-murder of hundreds of municipal and regional government officials and throughout the Minmatar Republic. The assassins, believed to be aligned with the same Minmatar-Thukker strike force invading the Amarr Empire, are allegedly leaving evidence of the victim's complicity with Amarrian intelligence services with each corpse. This "purge", as the attackers have allegedly described, was clearly timed to coincide with the invasion. Police detectives have remarked that the Minmatar-Thukker operation was "flawless", leaving "no opportunity for police forces to react."
"Yulai - *** This is a breaking news story *** Scope News has confirmed that CONCORD Bureau Station in Yulai has been destroyed, and that all rapid-reaction defense capabilities of the police agency have been disabled."
The day that the Amarr decided that brute force conquest of New Eden was no longer our goal was the day that the Republic decided it would become theirs.
Oh, and a bit of historical trivia that you types love to forget: The Amarr Empire never conquered the Minmatar Republic. We conquered the Minmatar Empire. That's right, kids - the Minmatar were once an Empire, same as us. Oh no, truth seeping into skulls... quick, grab the memory erase pills!
EvE Forum Bingo |
Karmilla Strife
Utopian Research I.E.L.
Suddenly Spaceships.
36
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Posted - 2013.02.22 05:46:00 -
[40] - Quote
I find it deliciously ironic that you quote news articles in one IGS thread while failing completely to comprehend a concurrent IGS thread regarding a news article. |
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Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
458
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Posted - 2013.02.22 06:02:00 -
[41] - Quote
I read the news constantly, pilot.
Be as condescending, pedantic and snarky as you please Luftshreck but the news items you posted are isolated incidents and not some kind of widespread, organized persecution as you keep attempting to portray. Sorry but, you can't erase 1000 years of history just like that. Our people, just like your Amarrian masters, have long memories. It will take time for relations between traditional Matari and those practicing your religion to normalize. It's only been a little over a century since the founding of the Republic. Freedom of speech, assembly and religion were enshrined in the Republic's original constitution. The fact that some, perhaps most, Matari aren't ready to accept your Amarrian religion with open arms doesn't change the fact that the practice of said religion is protected by our laws. That's a damned sight more freedom than anyone has in your masters' monolithic Empire.
You really need to find a new thing to rail against. Your constant attempts to discredit the Republic only serve to make you appear foolish and biased. We get that you had a hard time but honestly, the vast majority who are in the Republic are quite happy to be here. If they're not, they're free to leave for the Federation, State, Empire, Mandate, Kuvakei's Nation or wherever they feel they'd be happy. The fact that there is no mass exodus, even among your Amarrian faithful, puts the lie to your assertions.
What you want is irrelevant, what you've chosen is at hand. |
Koronakesh
Seekers of a Silent Paradise
108
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Posted - 2013.02.22 06:39:00 -
[42] - Quote
I find this idea of arming and training individuals who are placed within a crowded, hostile environment quite laudable and will be making appropriate donations to that effect.
SASPR Amir al-Mu'minin and Eve Online Hold'Em Management |
Samira Kernher
Praetorian Auxiliary Force
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
58
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Posted - 2013.02.22 09:41:00 -
[43] - Quote
Anabella Rella wrote:You really need to find a new thing to rail against. Your constant attempts to discredit the Republic only serve to make you appear foolish and biased. We get that you had a hard time but honestly, the vast majority who are in the Republic are quite happy to be here. If they're not, they're free to leave for the Federation, State, Empire, Mandate, Kuvakei's Nation or wherever they feel they'd be happy. The fact that there is no mass exodus, even among your Amarrian faithful, puts the lie to your assertions.
To be fair, many who might wish to leave are unable to do so due to low incomes. Afterall, many had to rely on aid from the Sisters of EVE just to get transport to the Republic in the first place. It can be especially hard if your family does not support your desire to leave, as individual family members will certainly not have the income necessary for that kind of relocation on their own.
It is true though that the situation is certainly not as... apocalyptic as miss Luftschreck seems to believe, and Amarrian-delivered weapons are just as likely to escalate the situation as they are to protect the victims. While greater security for those that are targeted for their faith is needed, I feel that transport and startup fare for those who wish to leave but lack the income would be a superior option to pursue. |
Gosakumori Noh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
104
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Posted - 2013.02.22 14:31:00 -
[44] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:While greater security for those that are targeted for their faith is needed, I feel that transport and startup fare for those who wish to leave but lack the income would be a superior option to pursue.
Why live under the tyranny of "or" when you can exult in the bounteous magnanimity of "and?"
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Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
3296
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Posted - 2013.02.22 14:53:00 -
[45] - Quote
Samira Kernher wrote:While greater security for those that are targeted for their faith is needed, I feel that transport and startup fare for those who wish to leave but lack the income would be a superior option to pursue.
I tend to agree. I believe Crow's goal here is that he's actually trying to increase the volatility of the situation without breaking Republic law. I don't think it will work as well as he thinks it will. Yes, people get scooped up in slave raids who might have wanted to stay in the Empire (and that in and of itself is a problem that needs to be dealt with) but its not like the republic is kidnapping people in order to persecute them like Luftshreck seems to believe. Its a messy situation but its not that big of a problem overall, and its not like its the republic's fault either. Its the fault of the those tribes who decided it would be a good idea to launch 'rescue missions' in violation of international treaties and grab entire slave villages in the middle of the night. That needs to stop. Spirits, its no wonder the Empire calls the republic a Rebel state.
Torn from grace, gotta find your faith
or the devils gonna claim your soul
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Lunarisse Aspenstar
Beaumonte Exploration and Foundry Consolidated
7
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Posted - 2013.02.22 15:10:00 -
[46] - Quote
*flickers in wearing a long ankle length dress, seated on a wooden chair at a simple dormitory desk that is otherwise bare except for a datapad. Through the window can be seen the spires and domes of the Amarr Legio Basilica.*
Lord Crow with all due respect and deference to one of your station, I would humbly urge you to consult with the Imperial ministries dealing with foreign affairs to ensure that you are not interfering with or causing complications for long-time plans of the Empire. While I applaud your efforts to help the Faithful, I worry that your unilateral efforts may complicate Her Majesties' management of the Minmitar "problem". While you are of course free to and will probably disegard the thoughts of a mere commoner, like me, I urge you to exercise prudence and caution. I am willing to send you non-military supplies to the extent the Faithful in the regions concerned may need humanitarian aid.
*closes the book, puches a button on her datapad, and ends the feed* |
Aldrith Shutaq
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
283
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 18:26:00 -
[47] - Quote
Koronakesh wrote:I find this idea of arming and training individuals who are placed within a crowded, hostile environment quite laudable and will be making appropriate donations to that effect.
No, you won't be. |
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
61
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Posted - 2013.02.22 18:29:00 -
[48] - Quote
How often need I warn people away from attempting, or claiming capacity, to reading my mind? I have stated what is happening and the reasons for it. If as Electus Matari member Annabella Rella claims these news are independent, individual cases. Then the only results from this is few people more within the Republic with a capacity to resist raids by any pirates. If she speaks truth, then there is little harm done to and possible respect to gain by the Faithful by protecting their neighbours against illegal slave raids.
Ms. Aspenstar, it is not my habit to disregard what people say. So while I may disagree or hold my own counsel your words will get measured I assure you. Capitulizing to demands to relocate law-abiding Republic inhabitants of Faith, based on minmatar claims that even though all of Amarr Faith are perfectly safe, increasing their ability to self-defence will somehow escalate things? No, I think not.
House Murder assisting some other Amarrian outreach programs helping those disillusioned with the freedoms of minmatar Republic? Possibly, however such discussion does not touch upon this particular effort.
As empyrean Noh stated we are not in a situation where we are forced to choose between one or the other. |
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
3332
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Posted - 2013.02.22 19:47:00 -
[49] - Quote
Gosakumori Noh wrote:Saede Riordan wrote:I believe someone once said, Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. I support your initiative and will make contributions to it when I am able. Huh. Well, she doesn't have the plumbing I had in mind... and she's not on the ground.... but she is a Sebiestor, and so I think it must be Heaven's will that I make good on my second pledge. Best wishes!
wat.
Torn from grace, gotta find your faith
or the devils gonna claim your soul
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Gosakumori Noh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
106
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 00:29:00 -
[50] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote:Gosakumori Noh wrote:Saede Riordan wrote:I believe someone once said, Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. I support your initiative and will make contributions to it when I am able. Huh. Well, she doesn't have the plumbing I had in mind... and she's not on the ground.... but she is a Sebiestor, and so I think it must be Heaven's will that I make good on my second pledge. Best wishes! wat.
I had suggested previously that if His Excellency were ever to expand his program to include recruiting members of the Sebiestor Tribe to his noble cause, I should happily match my initial contribution. Although I prefer my Sebiestor in a different package, your statement struck me as Close Enough For Serendipity, and so I forwarded my second pledge - may it help those most in need.
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King Moroni
Men of Wealth and Taste
Legio Damnata
2
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Posted - 2013.02.23 01:48:00 -
[51] - Quote
Mr. Crow
I'm trying to honestly find a more productive advance of your casue. Surely my father (as of late) wouldn't approve of, or the rise of, potential conflict. Granted there are alot of hate crimes. But our God is bevelonet and knows the individual crysis's of our hearts. perhaps a more local building of protective services? I'm sure funding for that would well be quite easy to get. and you can use those small arms to army the protective services. that sounds like a win win to me...
Frankly i don't understant why amarr citizens would even go into a questionable places to temporarly live if the threat is high. Don't we have levels of dangers for travel to certain places? |
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