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Poetic Stanziel
Fweddit
I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
1704
   |
Posted - 2013.02.19 10:02:00 -
[1] - Quote
from http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.ca/2013/02/the-highsec-big-picture.html
If CCP wants to make a big overall change to highsec, they'd best do it at a trickle. Small changes that are easily accepted as no big deal, because it's, after all, just a small change.
What do all the small changes add up to though?
Mining barge buffs? No big deal. It's just a small change, you can still gank miners, it's just a little harder now, a little more expensive.
Removing insurance on highsec ganks? No big deal. It's just a small change. Gankers should only be profiting on their kills, not the loss of their ships.
CONCORD warp disrupting you from across a system, the moment you open fire. No big deal. It's just a small change. Gankers should only be able to kill on a single grid.
The Crimewatch suspect flag. No big deal. It's just a small change, sure it's harder to make a living on highsec PvP due to suspect flagging when looting the booty. Nobody liked freighter ganking anyhow.
The killright system? No big deal. It's just a small change. Dirty pirates deserve to be free-for-alled by everyone in a system. Their life should be tougher.
The dueling system? No big deal. Sure it's consensual PvP, but it's a small change, and outside parties can still get involved.
Hell, I'm guilty of accepting some of these small changes. Mining barge buffs. Removal of insurance payouts. Even I said of those things "No big deal." Small changes can be deceptive.
What little changes are on the way, new little things that will be no big deal, because they're minor changes when viewed in the moment? Perhaps next up will be the inability to drag CONCORD from one grid to another. Perhaps miners will be able to call CONCORD to their grid at the first sign of suspicious activity? Who knows? But there are still lots of small changes that can be made that give the illusion of being able to engage in the old activities, while effectively neutering them forever. Ask Suddenly Ninjas or Ministry of Love about this.
Every little change that comes is no big deal, because every previous little change has already been accepted. Add up all the little changes, and what has highsec become? Is the risk still in line with the reward? Is there any point in doing certain activities outside of highsec now? Mining? Industry? Missioning and other forms of PvE?
I once had a dev tell me "If there was an overall policy to create a near-PvP-free highsec, I would know." Pre-2011, perhaps a dev would know. Post-2011, would a dev have any more of a clue than the players? The leak of the Fearless newsletter and Hilmar's email was from inside the company, after all. It wouldn't be surprising if that event alone changed a lot about CCP corporate culture. Do the people at the top of the pyramid still trust the people in the middle and at the bottom of the pyramid? After summer 2011, do the higher-ups still trust those down the ladder with information on the future direction of their premiere title?
Now, I don't blame devs for any of these small changes. They don't set future policy. Their job is to code the features as decided by the producers. That's it. They do a bang-on job of releasing their features. Devs are not to blame for the initial crappiness of war declarations or faction warfare, they coded those puppies as they were instructed to. Those features were released as the producers wanted. Devs are the foot soldiers, you don't blame the foot soldiers for the machinations of the generals.
Hell, the current producers can tell us, until they are blue in the face, that they aren't going to carebear highsec more than they already have. And we should probably believe them. But that means nothing three, four, five years down the line when some new producer is in place. (Producers don't tend to stick long in the role at CCP.) No particular direction is guaranteed, and the promises of one producer are forgotten with the next. And once all these new little things are in place and accepted, they're an invitation to anyone coming later to expand and develop them further.
So now we have a dueling system coming tomorrow. On the face of it, it really is no big deal. It's net effect will probably be to increase PvP in highsec (even if all that increase is of a consensual variety.) But one step back, is no big deal, if you're already planning the two steps forward. This is a consensual PvP system. The first for EVE Online. Once players accept this new system, is this where it stops? Or does acceptance breed more of the same down the line? Expansions to the system? Perhaps new developments in consensual PvP result in less PvP down the line. So more PvP now results in less non-consensual PvP down the line, a fair trade off if the eventual highsec goal is the illusion of non-consensual, while consensual is the norm.
I have no idea if there's an overall company vision to carebear up highsec, to develop more consensual PvP systems down the line. I don't know these things. You don't know these things. But better to remain vigilant on each and every new little thing that changes the non-consensual balance in highsec. Best to call attention to it now. Make people think about what's happening to their game now, because doing so down the line will be too late.
What is highsec going to look like two years from now? Will it be recognizable? Perhaps, if we start telling CCP "enough is enough" now. Or perhaps it will be completely unrecognizable if we continue to accept all these small changes as no big deal.
Amarr Militia - Fweddit - http://fweddit.com
Poetic Discourse - http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com |
March rabbit
player corp n1
549
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Posted - 2013.02.19 10:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
while i accept your fears i don't mind changes i see.
after all high-sec isn't a place you would visit should you be real pvper. it doesn't matter if high-sec is safe haven or not. but this is not place where you can have 100% pvp anyway. pvp in high-sec was always and will always be limited to n00b baiting, suicide ganking and all this sort of bottom line pvp. Nothing to speak about.
And what about reasons to do any activity outside of high-sec. Eve Online is live system. low-sec and 0.0 provide high-level minerals. If less minerals are mined they grow in price. kill your bots and (after some years) you will see mining of ABC rewarding (as it was 2 years ago when i have been happily mining in 0.0).
Deadspace modules can be obtained in 0.0 too.
Add here moons, T3 and you have lots of activities to do outside of high-sec. |
Schmata Bastanold
Serene Vendetta
Li3 Federation
596
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 10:24:00 -
[3] - Quote
Highsec is where money is, no wonder it gets love from masters of Excel. Today duels, tomorrow arenas and magic bullets stopping damage at hull.
Meanwhile CCP eviscerated lowsec pvp with semi-stealth removal of static 2/10 DED sites and turned it into staging area for null alliances. Same mythical metrics that showed a lot of farming in those sites now apparently show good amount of pvp in lowsec so no problem there. Except of Molden Heath being dead while it was thriving on small gangs action few months ago.
And POS fixes would serve only few people so nothing worth doing about it.
And no need for new content either, nor anything substantial about WiS/avatar gameplay.
Let's make 3rd rate shooter instead to farm console monkeys with 10 seconds attention span.
Oh, let's not forget about miner bumping "problem" which apparently is so huge issue it deserves dedicated thread on forums started by CCP dev (or was it GM?).
I am not my skills but...
http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
260
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 10:27:00 -
[4] - Quote
Dont care.
The game goes where the game goes. CCP have made the last huge change they will ever make, and after the resulting golden bullets fiasco they will never go that way again.
Ultimately I either want to log in and play or I dont. When I dont I will stop playing. This has always been the yardstick which is used to measure if the game is working.
If CCP have a million online but EvE is a complete carebear world then many of us will be gone.
EvE will carry on.
So play, or dont play.
Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits? |
Steve Spooner
Divine Spirit DSM
Strategic Operations Brigade
0
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Posted - 2013.02.19 10:43:00 -
[5] - Quote
Aren't you a bit paranoid? "What is highsec going to look like two years from now?" Uh....a place where newbies DON'T have to be worried about being baited or suicide ganked and can pewpew against their buddies without fear of everyone joining in? |
Joran Dravius
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
85
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 11:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
As someone who started in beta and has taken several extended breaks from the game this is all the more clear to me. High sec now bears little to no resemblance to what it started out as. It's orders of magnitude safer and it's gone from being a place for newbies to a place where you can stay forever.
Steve Spooner wrote:Aren't you a bit paranoid? "What is highsec going to look like two years from now?" Uh....a place where newbies DON'T have to be worried about being baited or suicide ganked and can pewpew against their buddies without fear of everyone joining in?
It's not the newbies we're worried about, it's the 3 year old characters that have never left and never plan to. It would still serve the role of protecting newbies while they learned the game if it was only a few systems with level 1 and 2 agents. |
Ptraci
Militaris Industries
Northern Coalition.
1268
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 13:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
PvP free high sec? There's more PvP in high sec than ever. You're just mad because you can't trick people into shooting you by flipping their can anymore. Go take some of those cans on the undock and you'll get more high sec PvP than you can handle. |
Haedonism Bot
Revolutionary Front
New Creation Collective
191
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Posted - 2013.02.19 13:51:00 -
[8] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:PvP free high sec? There's more PvP in high sec than ever. You're just mad because you can't trick people into shooting you by flipping their can anymore. Go take some of those cans on the undock and you'll get more high sec PvP than you can handle.
Agreed. Highsec PvP is alive and well. What Poetic is representing here is the perspective of those bittervets who are unable or unwilling to adapt to changes in game mechanics. Crimewatch buffed non-consensual highsec PvP. Most of us realized that about two and a half months ago. The dueling system is meant to replace the old can-flip method for initiating a consensual 1v1, which was a silly mechanic to begin with. And duals are almost as vulnerable to the use of sneaky tactics and unfair advantages as they ever were.
Join the Revolutionary Front and liberate New Eden from it's stuff.
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SoOza N'GasZ
Geese Jugglers
28
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Posted - 2013.02.19 14:10:00 -
[9] - Quote
Steve Spooner wrote:Aren't you a bit paranoid? "What is highsec going to look like two years from now?" Uh....a place where newbies DON'T have to be worried about being baited or suicide ganked and can pewpew against their buddies without fear of everyone joining in?
seems nice in theory... would probaly be cool to play too.... but kinda goes against the concept of : A REAL PLACE, AN OPEN WORLD SANDBOX.......soooo if ccp wants to make real what you just said they should restrict it to noob systems only. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
1217
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 14:16:00 -
[10] - Quote
High sec is like most cities. You are relatively safe, but you can still be mugged or killed. The difference is anyone can help you kill your mugger, and the cops always kill your killer.
The people crying about high sec are generally the people that liked having every advantage of high sec, while also abusing the mechanics to grief other people. Now that there are actual consequences to their actions, they cry about a slippery slope leading to a pvp-free high sec, while knowing that it would never happen.
With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
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Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
2474
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Posted - 2013.02.19 14:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Haedonism Bot wrote:What Poetic is representing here is the perspective of those bittervets who are unable or unwilling to adapt to changes in game mechanics.
On the contrary, we adapt to changes well in advance, but that doesn't mean we like or agree with them.
Apparently booking your flight & accomodation to Iceland BEFORE you buy the tickets for the convention which is pretty much the only reason you wanted to go there in the first place is popular. |
Felicity Love
STARKRAFT
268
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 14:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
Let's simplify this: EVE is changing to suit the mass market.
It's an ongoing business decision that drives game mechanics, not the other way around. Grasp that reality, and you'll be better off.
You may now return to your "special places" of pixels and light. 
Proud Beta Tester for "Bumping Uglies for Dummies" |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
374
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 14:34:00 -
[13] - Quote
What if for wars, you were given a 1 week le tag to the target corp.
The only way to lose the tag is to wait 1 week.
Would you be ok with this? |
Agent Eunoli
The Scope
Gallente Federation
62
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Posted - 2013.02.19 14:43:00 -
[14] - Quote
Felicity Love wrote:Let's simplify this: EVE is changing to suit the mass market. It's an ongoing business decision that drives game mechanics, not the other way around. Grasp that reality, and you'll be better off. You may now return to your "special places" of pixels and light.
Please define the "mass market" for EVE Online.
There is significant interest in the gaming community as a large percentage of players who want PvP in online games. Look at the success of all FPS games, MOBA games, and, essentially, every single multiplayer game with the bizarre exception of some MMOs.
Logging into EVE is logging into a PvP game. That's what it is was and that is what it should be.
PvP can happen at any time and anywhere. When you log in that is what you are accepting. Just like when you log into DUST 514 and exit a "station" into a map - you expect for PvP to happen.
Cinematic HD EVE Movies: http://www.youtube.com/user/EveEunoli/ |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
315
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 15:03:00 -
[15] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Mining barge buffs? No big deal. It's just a small change, you can still gank miners, it's just a little harder now, a little more expensive.
Destroyer buff? t3 BCs? No big deal, mining barges were buffed, yet people still don't fit a tank, irrelevant change really.
Quote:
Removing insurance on highsec ganks? No big deal. It's just a small change. Gankers should only be profiting on their kills, not the loss of their ships.
Pretty much offset by the introduction to t3 BC's. No longer will you sacrifice a battleship to gank someone, when you can simply throw a 80 mil BC to the fire.
Quote:
CONCORD warp disrupting you from across a system, the moment you open fire. No big deal. It's just a small change. Gankers should only be able to kill on a single grid.
This could be viewed as a nerf to non-consensual pvp. Or maybe CCP just doesn't want concord to be irrelevant as teh faction navies.
"The Crimewatch suspect flag. No big deal. It's just a small change, sure it's harder to make a living on highsec PvP due to suspect flagging when looting the booty. Nobody liked freighter ganking anyhow."
Crimewatch changes are awesome to me. Sorry gankers, I understand its' painful to risk a suspect flag on your alt when your commiting a crime...
"The killright system? No big deal."
Kill-rights in theory could promote non-consensual pvp. Althought from what I've seen, they aren't used very often.
Quote:
The dueling system? No big deal. Sure it's consensual PvP, but it's a small change, and outside parties can still get involved.
Dueling system is a replacement for can flip pvp of the past. I don't see why anyone would care this exists unless they are actually using it, and if they are using it it's probably a welcomed feature. |
EI Digin
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
486
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 15:05:00 -
[16] - Quote
Wardecs are practically a non-factor for most highsec players because they are skirting the rules via wardec evasion, which de facto eliminates them from the game, and the GMs and developers are turning a blind eye because of the poor, poor "new" players. Why should you be allowed to change the way highsec was intended to be? Why should you be able to force your style of play onto other players?
The raison d'etre for highsec PvP is backed into a corner, resulting it in being declared a "griefing tool", and players and developers alike are asking for it to be eliminated because it is "non-consensual". Are you kidding me?
Steve Spooner wrote:Aren't you a bit paranoid? "What is highsec going to look like two years from now?" Uh....a place where newbies DON'T have to be worried about being baited or suicide ganked and can pewpew against their buddies without fear of everyone joining in?
If you teach players that they will never have to deal with PvP no matter what, they will get mad and leave the first time something bad happens to them because of another player. Is this the kind of environment we want to encourage? In a game about piracy and war? |
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
187
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 15:30:00 -
[17] - Quote
Posting in a tinfoil hat thread.
Dueling was put in b/c of the suspect flag messing up what players were already doing to duel.
If you read anymore into it than that then you are officialy a Seriousface Mcfancypants.
Not today spaghetti. |
Solomar Espersei
Quality Assurance
The Marmite Collective
340
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 15:59:00 -
[18] - Quote
The very idea that dueling somehow "replaces" the old can flipping mechanic is laughable. Why would a miner ever accept a dual vs your condor or merlin now? In the old days, the miner was faced with the loss of his ore (since he foolishly jettisoned it into the cold void of space) and would often fight back to get it, or do the very exciting snatch and scoot, making off with it to the station while trolling the sad pirate. This was all well and good and provided a harmless way for young toons to get shot at, blow up some retrievers, make a solid chunk of ISK, etc. Hell, a lot of the miners even enjoyed the occasional excitement as a change from the monotonous hum of the mining lasers. Le sigh...
Dueling is a different thing and unlike can flipping, there is no risk of loss involved for the other person when he just ignores you. E honor buys you very little, unlike that old 27k can of veld did back in the day. 
Quality Assurance
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Karrl Tian
Exiled Assassins
194
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 16:26:00 -
[19] - Quote
Rellik B00n wrote:
The game goes where the game goes. CCP have made the last huge change they will ever make, and after the resulting golden bullets fiasco they will never go that way again.
So play, or dont play.
Ironically, the golden bullet fiasco boiled down to complaints that CCP was wasting their dev time on small superfluous additions like WIS and the Aurum store and not taking a stronger hand to balance the game. Also, there was talk about Pay to Win happening in a manner other than buying PLEX.
Well, they're taking a stronger hand now, be careful what you wish for. |
Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
173
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 16:50:00 -
[20] - Quote
If only these people would shed their tears over sov and moon goo in null sec we could see real change to an area of the game that is of far more concern.
Instead its the chorus of usual suspects chillin in their null sec alliances with blue from one horizon to the next complaining about High Sec.
Stop the hypocrisy.
Librarian and Exotic Dancer Extraordinaire
Champion of the Working Men and Women of Empire Space
Anti-Null Sec Opium Den Movement *President*
Not the woman high sec wants but the Woman high sec needs.
A modern girl for a modern world. |
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Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
2242
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 16:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Posting in a Poetic wall of text thread.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
331
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 17:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
Felicity Love wrote:Let's simplify this: EVE is changing to suit the mass market.
It's an ongoing business decision that drives game mechanics, not the other way around. Grasp that reality, and you'll be better off.
EXACTLY!!!
Rather than catering to a few tens of thousands hard-core PVPers that would get pretty tired of teh same old fights over and over again pretty quickly, CCP decided to embrace other play styles, INCLUDING carebears.
CONCORD, NPC corps, no insurance for CORDED losses, no escaping concord, exhumer buffs, the new bounty system and ability to transfer kill rights, on and on and on. ALL designed to support multiple play styles.
The problem is not that CCP is trying to attract players with various play styles. The problem is that the PVPers still think of these carebears as potential targets. IF you begin killing carebears at a pace that makes the carebears quit the game, then CCP will bring in more buffs, nerfs, mechanics or other rules as necessary to ensure you do not succeed in driving the carebears away.
Accept that, and go back to figuring out how to PVP against other PVPers instead of lamenting that it is not profitable to gank carebears. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Air
3156
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Posted - 2013.02.19 17:13:00 -
[23] - Quote
"Multiple playstyles" in this case meaning "isk farm so i can play for free" and "grind isk and quit 3 months later" playstyles.
Carebear catering has been the closest thing to bring CCP to financial ruin - undoing the damage this has caused will take patience and work. |
Irongut
Sex Money Guns
Unprovoked Aggression
6
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Posted - 2013.02.19 17:23:00 -
[24] - Quote
EI Digin wrote:If you teach players that they will never have to deal with PvP no matter what, they will get mad and leave the first time something bad happens to them because of another player. Is this the kind of environment we want to encourage? In a game about piracy and war?
Like many of the problems I've seen in this game that have caused me to quit before and probably will again in the future it boils down to CCP making things easier. I'm sure their reasoning is to make it easier for a new player to compete against an old vet like myself and that they think that is a noble act. But, in the end they just make it easier for the lazy to get fat chewing the cud in high sec and never exerience the joys of low sec or the agony and ecstasy of holding space in 0.0.
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
332
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 17:26:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:"Multiple playstyles" in this case meaning "isk farm so i can play for free" and "grind isk and quit 3 months later" playstyles.
Carebear catering has been the closest thing to bring CCP to financial ruin - undoing the damage this has caused will take patience and work.
Play for free is only possible if someone else is paying extra for it. Every subscribed account ( after the first 51 free days) is paid for by someone. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
332
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 17:33:00 -
[26] - Quote
Irongut wrote:EI Digin wrote:If you teach players that they will never have to deal with PvP no matter what, they will get mad and leave the first time something bad happens to them because of another player. Is this the kind of environment we want to encourage? In a game about piracy and war? Like many of the problems I've seen in this game that have caused me to quit before and probably will again in the future it boils down to CCP making things easier. I'm sure their reasoning is to make it easier for a new player to compete against an old vet like myself and that they think that is a noble act. But, in the end they just make it easier for the lazy to get fat chewing the cud in high sec and never exerience the joys of low sec or the agony and ecstasy of holding space in 0.0.
This is a 2-fer!
A lie inside a lie.....
"In a game about piracy and war"
Maybe that is what EVE is about to you. It is not about those things to me, which is why CCP has created mechanisms that largely allow me to avoid privacy and way. EVE is a sandbox that is about whatever you want it to be about for you.
"easier for the lazy to get fat chewing the cud in high sec and never exerience the joys of low sec or the agony and ecstasy of holding space in 0.0. "
You call lazy, I call playing how I enjoy playing. I've been to low and null, and let others dictate when I could play and how I had to play. Screw that. I'll quit a game where I'm forced to let one AFK cloaker block me from playing for weeks on end. Oh.. so much joy... NOT!!!!!
CCP has two choices... make the game appeal to a broad range of play styles, and profit... or keep the game cold and harsh and appealing to a narrow market that will doom them to financial hardship.
They've chosen the first option. Accept it and move on.
EVE is about whatever each individual player wants it to be about for them. No play style is more "valid" than any other. |
Wescro
Tash-Murkon Amalgamated Security
255
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 17:41:00 -
[27] - Quote
An intelligent player is always safe, in high sec, low or null. At the moment high sec is the place for lazier players who either don't want to be attentive or don't want to adapt to their circumstances by fitting properly, or not autopiloting, or scouting their freighters route for possible gankers. The gankers/bumpers et all have to play actively, and CCP nerfs their rewards while buffing the rewards of the lazy and the afk. What do they expect this will do? You can only imagine more afk and less active play. That's a pretty disastrous future in my opinion. No wonder miner ganking is at historic lows.
James 315-á-áis the only pro-sandbox candidate running for CSM 8. Resist the theme-park invasion from dying MMOs like WoW! Keep the only sandbox MMO alive! Vote 315 4 CSM8!!! |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
924
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 17:46:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ptraci wrote:PvP free high sec? There's more PvP in high sec than ever. You're just mad because you can't trick people into shooting you by flipping their can anymore. Go take some of those cans on the undock and you'll get more high sec PvP than you can handle.
Exactly, and the new dueling system will make can baiting something only done for the truly douchearrific. Want your 1 vs 1 PvP fights without everyone and their dog jumping in and ruining it? Now you can do exactly that! And I look forward to grabbing popcorn and watching "Hi-sec Fight Club" outside of the newbie stations because it will be an all-you-can-eat PvP show 23/7.
EvE Forum Bingo |
Lascivit Mercator
17
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 17:46:00 -
[29] - Quote
if the added risk to high sec ganking reduces high sec crime, it doesn't say very much towards the testicular fortitude of those involved
I like to multiply with sheep |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
773
|
Posted - 2013.02.19 17:47:00 -
[30] - Quote
Irongut wrote:Like many of the problems I've seen in this game that have caused me to quit before and probably will again in the future it boils down to CCP making things easier. I'm sure their reasoning is to make it easier for a new player to compete against an old vet like myself and that they think that is a noble act. But, in the end they just make it easier for the lazy to get fat chewing the cud in high sec and never exerience the joys of low sec or the agony and ecstasy of holding space in 0.0.
Making the game easier for newbies to learn and understand is a laudable goal. Unfortunately most people think this means making highsec safe and easy. That is simply not the case for example what's one thing you always see newbies mention, they mention that it takes so long to do something moderately well. No increase in highsec safety will fix that, instead reducing training times and making T1 ships more forgiving would be the solution to that. Thankfully they've already started on improving T1 ships. Fixing the UI and making it intuitive would be a huge leap in newbie accessibility as well.
This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
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