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Cydori
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
And now supers are nerfed back into the oblivion from whence they came. And no, I don't own or fly a super and never have.
I'm not opposed to nerfing supers or any other ship in need of balance as there should never be an "I win" button in EVE. However, I do object to the trend of turning every ship in the game into a super specialized tool which does one thing well and is absolute rubbish for everything else. That line of reasoning eventually leads to a game design where there is a "right" way and "wrong" way to use every ship as well as a predetermined way to play the game.
If I wanted to play rock, paper, scissors I wouldn't be playing EVE.
Seriously, CCP, what's the point of having hundreds of ships and modules to choose from if all of them are predestined to be fitted and flown in with an identical template? Can you spell 'boring.' |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1713
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
I dare say you have never seen the Caracal, Hurricane, Tengu or a whole slew of other ships with versatile fittings. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1713
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:10:00 -
[3] - Quote
My point here is that just because there are popular fits for a thing does not mean that other fits are not possible and viable. |
Di Mulle
18
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Apparently making it in not predertermined way, which leads to the pretty predetermined situation of "fly one ship or why bother", is less boring and justifies existence of hundreds of ships better. CCP is unable to implement simpliest things. Like settting to hide signatures. So they sweep it under a rug . Children do that in their pre-shool years, CCP does it being adults. Probably because it is fearless enough. |
Cydori
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:12:00 -
[5] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:I dare say you have never seen the Caracal, Hurricane, Tengu or a whole slew of other ships with versatile fittings.
Yes, that's true. For a handful of ships. For everything else the ships might as well come pre-built with fittings because they are rubbish for everything other than one single specialized role. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1713
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
I don't think you have much experience in this game. Name me a ship, and I'll give you some fittings for it. |
Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
281
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:17:00 -
[7] - Quote
Cydori wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:I dare say you have never seen the Caracal, Hurricane, Tengu or a whole slew of other ships with versatile fittings. Yes, that's true. For a handful of ships. For everything else the ships might as well come pre-built with fittings because they are rubbish for everything other than one single specialized role.
Oh? Pick one, post the fitting, and then post how absolutely no other fittings for that ship are worthwhile or valid.
I'll wait.
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stoicfaux
281
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:I don't think you have much experience in this game. Name me a ship, and I'll give you some fittings for it.
Charon.
Tinfoil. It should be at the top of everyone's food pyramid.
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
281
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:I don't think you have much experience in this game. Name me a ship, and I'll give you some fittings for it. Charon.
That's cheating |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1713
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:20:00 -
[10] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:I don't think you have much experience in this game. Name me a ship, and I'll give you some fittings for it. Charon. [Charon, New Setup 1]
[Charon, New Setup 2]
[Charon, New Setup 3]
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Igualmentedos
Shadow Veil Industrial Shadow Directive
0
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:I don't think you have much experience in this game. Name me a ship, and I'll give you some fittings for it. Charon. [Charon, New Setup 1] [Charon, New Setup 2] [Charon, New Setup 3]
^this. I personally prefer the first set up, but all three are solid fits IMO. |
Palovana
Inner Fire Inc.
10
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:I don't think you have much experience in this game. Name me a ship, and I'll give you some fittings for it. Charon. 981250 m-¦ cargo space, largest of all freighters.
Can haul two fitted Ravens in a courier contract if you have Caldari Freighter V.
But haul is all it can do. If we had line-of-sight firing, it could be a pretty decent "meatal" shield for frigs and stuff. Your stuff goes here. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1713
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
Igualmentedos wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:I don't think you have much experience in this game. Name me a ship, and I'll give you some fittings for it. Charon. [Charon, New Setup 1] [Charon, New Setup 2] [Charon, New Setup 3] ^this. I personally prefer the first set up, but all three are solid fits IMO. I actually keep all three in station. The first one is my usual Jita-haulting setup, but I use the third one for managing my Planetary Interaction empire and the second one is comparatively preferable for trips through Niarja and other high-security choke systems where ganking is a concern. |
Gealbhan
39
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:27:00 -
[14] - Quote
I always thought of the Minmatar as the "jack-of-all-trades-wacky-fit-club".
I do think some specialisation ships are not a bad thing per say, oversaturation of them would be a bad thing. |
Kitty McKitty
In Praise Of Shadows
357
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Please refrain from making dumb supers whine threads. GÖÑ Haviing your portrait painted here helps INTAKI Disabled Children GÖÑ |
stoicfaux
281
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:32:00 -
[16] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:stoicfaux wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:I don't think you have much experience in this game. Name me a ship, and I'll give you some fittings for it. Charon. [Charon, New Setup 1] [Charon, New Setup 2] [Charon, New Setup 3]
I forget the details, but wouldn't a freighter full of shuttles be a viable setup?
Tinfoil. It should be at the top of everyone's food pyramid.
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Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
12
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:33:00 -
[17] - Quote
Quote:what's the point of having hundreds of ships and modules to choose from if all of them are predestined to be fitted and flown in with an identical template?
Most everyone agrees with your statement and that's essentially why the supercap changes are coming. There is quite a bit of versatility with most ships in the game, however none of that matters if you can just field a couple handfuls of supercaps and destroy any subcap fleet in the game. These changes are being made for the sake of versatility as well as balance.
It's a good set of changes imo. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1714
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:35:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gealbhan wrote:I always thought of the Minmatar as the "jack-of-all-trades-wacky-fit-club".
I do think some specialisation ships are not a bad thing per say, oversaturation of them would be a bad thing. The only ship I can think of offhand that has clarity of purpose and elegance of design is the Brutix; but, I am predisposed to believe that by virtue of Dear Leader endorsing its use in that regard. For the information of those unaware, I am referring to the use of the Brutix as an all-out gank platform with blasters. But even the Brutix can be put to alternative uses: I am told it makes a fine mission or ratting boat with railguns, etc. |
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
175
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:37:00 -
[19] - Quote
Artillery hurricanes hurt. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1714
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Posted - 2011.10.12 18:41:00 -
[20] - Quote
So do Artillery thrashers, and AML Caracals. |
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Ladie Harlot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
471
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Posted - 2011.10.12 19:33:00 -
[21] - Quote
Kitty McKitty wrote:Please refrain from making dumb supers whine threads. Perish the though! Supercap nerf tears are the best thing ever
The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
79
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Posted - 2011.10.12 19:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:So do Artillery thrashers, and AML Caracals.
AML navy caracal hurts even more [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Rocky Deadshot
In The Goo EVE Trade Alliance
9
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Posted - 2011.10.12 19:41:00 -
[23] - Quote
I'd have to disagree that this game is marching toward rock, paper, scissors. Now rock, paper, scissors, lizard, spock ... maybe
From the dev posts I've seen, I think come winter we are going to see an increase in diversity on the battle field. With hybrids getting a re balance and the supers nerf... seems like fleet diversity might be on the rise. Also i've seen devs on multiple occasions talk about wanting to explore diversifying the roles of current sub-cap ships that may or may not be of major use right now, especially in pvp.
I would love to see black ops re worked so that it was used for something more than just AFK cloaky, and hot drops. I'd love to see marauders re worked so they were something more than a mission runners wet dream. I'd love to see new ship t2 classes introduced, especially for destroyer and battlecruisers and i'd really like to see the tier 2 BCs and tier 3 BSs hull used in future ships. There is alot of cool/fun stuff FiS can do... and I feel most of its current projects are just a stepping stone into a diversified Eve.
After all.... Internet Spaceships are serious business. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1731
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Posted - 2011.10.12 19:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ladie Harlot wrote:Kitty McKitty wrote:Please refrain from making dumb supers whine threads. Perish the though! Supercap nerf tears are the best thing ever Every time I see a goon use the word "tears" I question which side really won the culture war. |
Ladie Harlot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
471
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Posted - 2011.10.12 19:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:Ladie Harlot wrote:Kitty McKitty wrote:Please refrain from making dumb supers whine threads. Perish the though! Supercap nerf tears are the best thing ever Every time I see a goon use the word "tears" I question which side really won the culture war. Using pubbie memes against them is proof that we won.
The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1731
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Posted - 2011.10.12 19:45:00 -
[26] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:So do Artillery thrashers, and AML Caracals. AML navy caracal hurts even more I have been tossing around the idea of an AML Drake to bait and kill Dramiels. I figure it would be viable because the AML Caracal is a fairly well-known thing to be avoided by frigates, but a Drake is almost exclusively presumed to be fitted with HMLs and therefore presents a much more inviting target. What do you think about this? I am thinking of a dual-web fit with a scram and a medium neutralizer in the utility high slot, but I am torn between an afterburner or a microwarpdrive.
Suggestions? |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1731
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 19:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
Ladie Harlot wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:Ladie Harlot wrote:Kitty McKitty wrote:Please refrain from making dumb supers whine threads. Perish the though! Supercap nerf tears are the best thing ever Every time I see a goon use the word "tears" I question which side really won the culture war. Using pubbie memes against them is proof that we won. One of these days we're going to get blind-sided by some random ass pubbie telling us to kill our are selves. |
Cydori
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2011.10.13 17:27:00 -
[28] - Quote
Covert Kitty wrote:Most everyone agrees with your statement and that's essentially why the supercap changes are coming. There is quite a bit of versatility with most ships in the game, however none of that matters if you can just field a couple handfuls of supercaps and destroy any subcap fleet in the game. These changes are being made for the sake of versatility as well as balance.
I get that. As I said in my original post, supers do need to be changed and no ship in the game ought to be an "I win" button. So I fully understand the reasoning behind this particular nerf and I generally support it.
But what I don't want to see happen is one ship after another be nerfed to the point where it serves one single purpose and nothing else, because there are already far too many ships in EVE which fit that description. Is it possible to fit ships in different ways? Of course it is, as almost any ship in EVE can fit multiple modules. However, in far too many cases the majority of fits are pure rubbish. And even in those cases where multiple fits are possible, nearly all of them are geared toward the same basic purpose. So while different fits are possible, that doesn't necessarily equate to a whole lot of real flexibility.
We need more ships that can be utilized in a wide variety of roles. Tech 3 was supposed to bring exactly that, but...
What I'm really asking for is that changes to ships be part of a cohesive, well thought out plan to bring balance and flexibility to combat in EVE instead of just a giant nerf which hammers down whatever the ship of the month happens to be. This month it's supers, next month some other ship will get nerfed into irrelevance. CCP really ought to have figured out this process by now. |
Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2339
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 17:30:00 -
[29] - Quote
Large and cohesive changes will never happen in this MMO, any other MMO, or any other business. Changes occur in increments so that they can individually be documented and analysed by the numbers guys whose job it is to make charts and graphs about things to do with the company's income and how any changes to income reflect changes in business model. |
Cydori
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2011.10.13 17:37:00 -
[30] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:Large and cohesive changes will never happen in this MMO, any other MMO, or any other business. Changes occur in increments so that they can individually be documented and analysed by the numbers guys whose job it is to make charts and graphs about things to do with the company's income and how any changes to income reflect changes in business model.
Large changes never happen in EVE? Since when?
On a more serious note, I know changes are generally going to happen in iterations, which is a good thing. But that still doens't mean they can't be part of a cohesive plan. And if changes aren't part of a cohesive plan, then no wonder parts of the game are so f***ed up. |
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Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2339
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Posted - 2011.10.13 17:46:00 -
[31] - Quote
Cydori wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:Large and cohesive changes will never happen in this MMO, any other MMO, or any other business. Changes occur in increments so that they can individually be documented and analysed by the numbers guys whose job it is to make charts and graphs about things to do with the company's income and how any changes to income reflect changes in business model. Large changes never happen in EVE? Since when? On a more serious note, I know changes are generally going to happen in iterations, which is a good thing. It is entirely possible for a cohesive planGÇölet's call it Situation BGÇöto be theoretically and demonstrably superior to the initial scenario in which one finds oneself. Let's call that initial state Situation A. For the sake of a clear point, let us presume that fully implementing Situation B will result in a 25% increase to total subscriptions for your MMO. It is also entirely possible for Situation B to be composed of several elements: let's call those, for the sake of brevity, Component A, Component B, Component C, and Component D. Also for the sake of simplicity, let us assume that these components of Situation B shall be introduced in increments according to alphabetical order, over the course of a proposed one-year deployment rather than all at once.
T = 0 : Situation A GÇö Subscription Numbers = 100%
T + 90 : Deploy Component A GÇö Subscription Numbers = 110%
T + 180 : Deploy Component B GÇö Subscription Numbers = 95%
T + 270 : Deploy Component C GÇö Subscription Numbers = 85%
T + 360 : Deploy Component D GÇö Subscription Numbers = 120%
Sounds all well and good, yes? Well, no. Because the plan is being deployed in increments, Component D never gets deployed because at T + 270 it is very obvious that the roll-out of Situation B is a flop. It gets abandoned in lieu of trying some other thing that won't cut revenues by 15% with a clear trend towards losing even more income. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2011.10.13 18:02:00 -
[32] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:I don't think you have much experience in this game. Name me a ship, and I'll give you some fittings for it.
Diemost - armor fit OC
Tell me how much you guys love those in your fleets
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
503
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Posted - 2011.10.13 18:03:00 -
[33] - Quote
mmm rocks
/c
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Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2344
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Posted - 2011.10.13 18:03:00 -
[34] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:I don't think you have much experience in this game. Name me a ship, and I'll give you some fittings for it. Diemost - armor fit OC Tell me how much you guys love those in your fleets Deimos is unironically very useful in certain "activities" which are sometimes very "profitable". |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2011.10.13 18:12:00 -
[35] - Quote
Lyris Nairn wrote:Tanya Powers wrote:Lyris Nairn wrote:I don't think you have much experience in this game. Name me a ship, and I'll give you some fittings for it. Diemost - armor fit OC Tell me how much you guys love those in your fleets Deimos is unironically very useful in certain "activities" which are sometimes very "profitable". e: Besides, even if the Deimos was useless there is a difference between "not useful at all" and "one trick pony".
Ho you loved my pony huh?
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Lyris Nairn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2350
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Posted - 2011.10.13 18:33:00 -
[36] - Quote
I absolutely adore Rainbow Dash. |
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