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Sorja
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:10:00 -
[1]
We are having (or should be having) a fleet battle in V7-MID at the moment, and after 20 minutes we are still unable to activate our modules.
If the servers can't handle heavy load (and they can't) isn't time to restrict entrance to a system in a way we can actually play the game the way it is intended to?
I can't think of a fair solution at the moment, but having over 200 people spending their evening for a fleet battle and not being able to do nothing looks like a game breaking issue, isn't it?
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Balistic Void
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:11:00 -
[2]
That far north is usually sparsely populated. Maybe CCP have given that area a "weak" node? As compared to 0.0 entrypoints and empire etc.
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Blacklight
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:11:00 -
[3]
Eve = total joke.
No further comment.
Eve Blacklight Style
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Dogma2003
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:12:00 -
[4]
can someone tell me if im still in local ... omg!
*With a gun barrel between your teeth, you speak only in vowels.* |
Apoll
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:13:00 -
[5]
I face it now. 25m stuck :) don't think server can hold that many in 1 place :)
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Demor
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:13:00 -
[6]
Well CCP wanted more people in 0.0
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InosZorn
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:13:00 -
[7]
whos primary?
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ElMonoDelMar
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:14:00 -
[8]
This fleet battle is awesome. Instead of fighting, I'm using this lag time to take wicked screenies. 
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Voltex
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:14:00 -
[9]
just give the weak nodes to the empire systems with not much activty and give the strongest nodes to the 0.0s that in the past have had BIG fleet battles. Or just upgrade the server.
'Your 250mm Carbide completely misses Guristas Annihilator, Doing 0 damage'
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Blacklight
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:15:00 -
[10]
Just get some hardware that can handle the bloody game. No rocket science required here.
Eve Blacklight Style
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Leno
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:15:00 -
[11]
well considering u guys knew this before u all came up there, maybe u should have avoided making a total huge blob war?
I mean if it could handle it great, but u all knew damn well it couldnt
---------------
RIP - Smoske, My Friend
Coasterbrian > babies are good, especially raw
Coasterbrian > soft and crunchy at |
Drakma
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:16:00 -
[12]
 Originally by: Blacklight
Just get some hardware that can handle the bloody game. No rocket science required here.
Please enlighten us on how you would do it differently.
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Aryth
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:17:00 -
[13]
Anyone wanna go out drinking and come back monday when the fight starts back up again?
"We demand ridgedly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty." |
Leno
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:17:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Blacklight
Just get some hardware that can handle the bloody game. No rocket science required here.
im sure they would be happy too if it is even possible/affordable for a small icelandic company to do. I mean come on u think they are TRYING to make it crappy?
---------------
RIP - Smoske, My Friend
Coasterbrian > babies are good, especially raw
Coasterbrian > soft and crunchy at |
YodaMasterJedi
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:17:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Blacklight
Just get some hardware that can handle the bloody game. No rocket science required here.
agreed....... 
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Balistic Void
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:19:00 -
[16]
Maybe it's also a software problem?
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Aryth
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:20:00 -
[17]
OPk lets just turn this into a text based fleet fight.
Boom i just killed someone who was it?
"We demand ridgedly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty." |
Blacklight
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:22:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Aryth
OPk lets just turn this into a text based fleet fight.
Boom i just killed someone who was it?
/aims 6 T2 1400's at Yodamasterjedi and unleashes wtfpwningsinglevolleyoopsImayhavemisseddamage!
Eve Blacklight Style
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Alasse Cuthalion
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:23:00 -
[19]
/me aims at the servers...
BOOM HEADSHOT!
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Alasse Cuthalion
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:26:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Blacklight
Originally by: Aryth
OPk lets just turn this into a text based fleet fight.
Boom i just killed someone who was it?
/aims 6 T2 1400's at Yodamasterjedi and unleashes wtfpwningsinglevolleyoopsImayhavemisseddamage!
That's complete lies, we already know you lost your ship :)
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Sorja
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:26:00 -
[21]
Load handling is no trivial task.
If it is not possible to have big fleet battles, I think a system should be thought off to limit the size of fleets, while I have no idea how to do it but some brainstorming should come up with solutions.
It's not a question about who blobs who, it's a question about playability.
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Blacklight
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:30:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Alasse Cuthalion
Originally by: Blacklight
Originally by: Aryth
OPk lets just turn this into a text based fleet fight.
Boom i just killed someone who was it?
/aims 6 T2 1400's at Yodamasterjedi and unleashes wtfpwningsinglevolleyoopsImayhavemisseddamage!
That's complete lies, we already know you lost your ship :)
lol I know but I want to go buy another and go back!
Eve Blacklight Style
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Fillmeup
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:52:00 -
[23]
I thought one of the things that the new server structure introuced was dynamic load balancing or whatever .... 
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Drilla
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Posted - 2005.07.30 23:53:00 -
[24]
Blacklight wets his pants - so said my magic 8ball.
EVE System Security - Killboard (still early alpha) |
Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.07.31 00:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Sorja
If the servers can't handle heavy load (and they can't) isn't time to restrict entrance to a system in a way we can actually play the game the way it is intended to?
"You are unable to activate the jumpgate due to too many players being in the next system. Please try again later."
On TS:
Pilot: %#$% we hit the limit!
FC: we got 20 in, they still have 80! WARP WARP WARP!
Ceptor Pilot [CORPA] has started trying to warp scamble the battleship "Some Alliance FC" [CORPB]
...
"Ceptor Pilot [CORPA] has started trying to warp scamble the Capsule "FC's Capsule" [CORPB]"
Pilot: I got in!
Proud member of Elite Academy. |
Balistic Void
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Posted - 2005.07.31 00:20:00 -
[26]
When CCP talk about "dynamic load balancing" I think they mean that they can reconfigure nodes over downtime, not that it does it "on the fly". Also nodes do not correspond to individual systems. Sometimes I've been disconnected because of a node going offline but my gangmates are still working fine in system. This is all a vaguely educated guess ofc...
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Exile Devaltos
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Posted - 2005.07.31 00:29:00 -
[27]
Play SWG or WoW ffs, everytime there are more than 20 people firing at each other, the game lags crazy. EVE is heaven compared to all the other MMOs...
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Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.07.31 00:35:00 -
[28]
A limit of 10 would be perfect hehe 
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here |
YodaMasterJedi
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Posted - 2005.07.31 00:36:00 -
[29]
Edited by: YodaMasterJedi on 31/07/2005 00:38:02
Originally by: Blacklight
Originally by: Aryth
OPk lets just turn this into a text based fleet fight.
Boom i just killed someone who was it?
/aims 6 T2 1400's at Yodamasterjedi and unleashes wtfpwningsinglevolleyoopsImayhavemisseddamage!
IM ON YOUR SIDE YOU JACKASS!!! ROFL 
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Syrec
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Posted - 2005.07.31 01:12:00 -
[30]
Originally by: ElMonoDelMar
This fleet battle is awesome. Instead of fighting, I'm using this lag time to take wicked screenies.
haha
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DigitalCommunist
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Posted - 2005.07.31 01:39:00 -
[31]
This is why I as well as my entire corp prefer to stay small and independant of any huge alliance politics. When it comes down to it, you need to be able to kick ass and you can't, so why bother with stuff like this? If the game can't handle it, its not even a factor of skill or tactics, just really big luck.
What really annoys me is for the first year of retail CCP made zero attempts at resolving it (only until we got drone and missile optimizations did things change a bit). They consistently blamed it on our PCs. I mean, I study computer engineering so network archetecture isn't far beyond my understanding.. but when you have 250 people on one "node" activating in upwards of 19 modules and sending extra data like drones, orbit, approach.. the server not only has to calculate the effects of your actions, but update your positional and statistical information to 249 other people, as well as each and every one of theirs to each and every one of them.
I'm pretty sure CCP got 1000 people on one CPU in beta, during a stress test, but it was laggy even when most people were idling inside a station. 250 sending hundreds of requests each is thousand and thousands of calculations and data streams.
So it doesnt take a damn genius to see its not our computers.
What CCP need to look into is having a few super-nodes or empty/optimized nodes on constant standby so when you have situations of one large group of players jumping into another large group of players (or anything more than 50 pilots in space in one system) the entire system is switched over to that node.. or maybe just that one grid. I'll take a few seconds of "loading space" during my warp to the gate over having to fight on a crappy node thats linked to empire systems and stuff.
_____________________________________
Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning.
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Kerosene
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Posted - 2005.07.31 02:29:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Kerosene on 31/07/2005 02:30:42
NBSI hates blobbing too, I mean seriously loathe it but in order to take a region for a home, you've got to show that you can defend it. We didn't ask for a fleet of over 100 ships from many different alliances to show up to try to make us prove ourselves... Personally I'd daren't go near V7-MID at the moment because more than 50 in local tends to have an adverse affect on my connection.
__
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Kyozoku
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Posted - 2005.07.31 03:09:00 -
[33]
What about the poor noobs who need to get through systems for their agents and stuff?
Somebody please think of the nubs. 
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Branmuffin
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Posted - 2005.07.31 03:14:00 -
[34]
They could always limit fleet size based on leadership skills, say for every level of leadership you are allowed to be part of a gang with 5 people, so with leadership 5 you could have a 25 person gang.
Of course taking only the highest skilled player in the gang into account.
IF you want to use more train up Advanced leadership or GASP make two gangs and use TACTICS!
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.07.31 03:15:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Branmuffin
They could always limit fleet size based on leadership skills, say for every level of leadership you are allowed to be part of a gang with 5 people, so with leadership 5 you could have a 25 person gang.
Of course taking only the highest skilled player in the gang into account.
IF you want to use more train up Advanced leadership or GASP make two gangs and use TACTICS!
How exactly does forcing people to make 2 gangs limit the number of people fighting in a grid? Dont answer - you dont know.
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Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.07.31 03:22:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Blind Fear
Originally by: Branmuffin
They could always limit fleet size based on leadership skills, say for every level of leadership you are allowed to be part of a gang with 5 people, so with leadership 5 you could have a 25 person gang.
Of course taking only the highest skilled player in the gang into account.
IF you want to use more train up Advanced leadership or GASP make two gangs and use TACTICS!
How exactly does forcing people to make 2 gangs limit the number of people fighting in a grid? Dont answer - you dont know.
Yes, but it adds the coordination requirement. Which means things get interesting. And blobs actually have to expend more effort to stay in any form resembling cohesiveness.
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.07.31 03:26:00 -
[37]
"Yes, but it adds the coordination requirement."
They still sit on the same teamspeak listening to the same fleet leader... it might break the text communication in gang channel somewhat, but then in the end it just puts the people with no voice communication at even worse disadvantage they already had... :/
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Aadarm
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Posted - 2005.07.31 03:27:00 -
[38]
Not going to be a huge effort of coordination to use two gangs, just use TS and there wouldn't be a huge problem. War plays a big part in this game, the server should be able to handle it when they do take place on a large scale.
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2005.07.31 03:27:00 -
[39]
My understanding is that when the first player enters a system that system is assigned to the node with the lowest load at the time and started up, it then remains on that node untill such time as the system is empty, when no node runs that system till a new person enters.
I think its safe to say that by peak time all the nodes will have a moderate load on them already and as a result if you throw a few hundred people at one, it will push it past heavy and into extreme load.
Certain systems that have been identified as trouble spots (Yulai historically being the prime example, but also hot spots like Hed-gp I believe) are assigned a node purely for there own use outside of the normal load balancing.
I get the feeling that "moving" everyone to a new node would kick them all out of the game as the solar system would be closed and started up again on the new node.
With that all said, I'm not entirely sure what they could do about it without making every node a super-computer or being psychic and able to predict exactly which systems will need to be beefed up in the coming day.
.
-----
Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.07.31 03:29:00 -
[40]
Originally by: j0sephine
"Yes, but it adds the coordination requirement."
They still sit on the same teamspeak listening to the same fleet leader... it might break the text communication in gang channel somewhat, but then in the end it just puts the people with no voice communication at even worse disadvantage they already had... :/
Logistics is the key to strategy. And communication is paramount. If you dont have adequate comms...then whose fault is that.
As for current fleets, sure they could listen to the same guy, but they would suddenly find themselves without the convenience of warping the whole force to a single person, etc.
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.07.31 03:42:00 -
[41]
"I get the feeling that "moving" everyone to a new node would kick them all out of the game as the solar system would be closed and started up again on the new node.
With that all said, I'm not entirely sure what they could do about it without making every node a super-computer or being psychic and able to predict exactly which systems will need to be beefed up in the coming day."
Wonder if something like this could work...
* 2-3 'idle' nodes on standby
* if number of people in given system exceeds certain threshold, this system is marked as hotspot, one of idle nodes is assigned as its mirror, whole current content of this crowded system is copied to it and then processed on this dedicated 'emergency' node. From now on anyone jumping in the system is transparently sent to that mirror node. Anyone jumping out is sent back to 'regular' node handling the neighbour systems.
* after the number of people in 'hotspot' node falls below threshold and stays at this low level for long enough, the content is copied back to regular node, system 'hotspot' status is turned off and the emergency node is brought back to idle state ... until another large gathering of people happens somewhere in EVE.
(doesn't deal with way harder problem of keeping everyone in that large group updated fast enough, as it's something that many MMOs have problems with... but would at least limit the effect of blobs on the rest of universe? o.O;
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Kerby Lane
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Posted - 2005.07.31 03:48:00 -
[42]
Originally by: ElMonoDelMar
This fleet battle is awesome. Instead of fighting, I'm using this lag time to take wicked screenies.
Feel our pain 8)
We`ve spent some time in GW last week this way.
May be we need deathmatch arena or something ?
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2005.07.31 03:54:00 -
[43]
What you need is challenging for sovereignty, designating systems a battlefield before hand and thus assinging it a good enough node. Yes, pre-arranged agreed upon combat in a chosen battlefield.
But would you stand and fight when the option to run looks so tempting?
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Sadist
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Posted - 2005.07.31 04:02:00 -
[44]
Really, 10 is a good number for a gang. It would add some real field tactics, like squad combat, instead of blob combat.
---------------
Originally by: Dark Shikari
"One Trit to rule them all, One Trit to find them, One Trit to bring them all, and in the veldspar bind them"
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Kalened
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Posted - 2005.07.31 04:16:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Exile Devaltos
Play SWG or WoW ffs, everytime there are more than 20 people firing at each other, the game lags crazy. EVE is heaven compared to all the other MMOs...
Actually Dark Age of Camelot doesnt have this issue and they have massive realm vs realm pvp as well. Maybe CCP should place a call and see how they handle it.
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Branmuffin
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Posted - 2005.07.31 04:37:00 -
[46]
DAOC is essentially 2 dimensional as far as combat is concerned.
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.07.31 04:38:00 -
[47]
Limiting gang sizes does nothing because noone uses any feature of gangs for actual battle communication. Its only used for non-essential updates which you dont want to clutter TS with.
Shrinking gangs does nothing except make it slightly less convienent to do exactly what you always did. Its not a solution, stop being clueless.
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CmdrRat
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Posted - 2005.07.31 04:57:00 -
[48]
Linkage
Video of the fight tonight for those who where not there.
_
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_________________________________________________________
_________________________________________________________
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Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.07.31 04:59:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Blind Fear
Limiting gang sizes does nothing because noone uses any feature of gangs for actual battle communication. Its only used for non-essential updates which you dont want to clutter TS with.
Shrinking gangs does nothing except make it slightly less convienent to do exactly what you always did. Its not a solution, stop being clueless.
Warp to gang member? Leadership bonuses?
I would say those factor in...
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here |
Hllaxiu
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Posted - 2005.07.31 05:11:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
Warp to gang member? Leadership bonuses?
I would say those factor in...
Leadership bonuses are more or less irrelevant, warp problems would only basically add a little bit of extra overhead in terms of more covert ops ships. It would only **** people off and not solve anything. I mean, if you have 100 people ready to defend your territory and theres 100 people attacking, how do you resolve it? Die roll?
Proud member of Elite Academy. |
Sadist
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Posted - 2005.07.31 05:17:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Blind Fear
Limiting gang sizes does nothing because noone uses any feature of gangs for actual battle communication. Its only used for non-essential updates which you dont want to clutter TS with.
Shrinking gangs does nothing except make it slightly less convienent to do exactly what you always did. Its not a solution, stop being clueless.
Neither does removal of instas, and a myriad of pointless(and stupid, sometimes) solutions for a non-existant problem.
---------------
Originally by: Dark Shikari
"One Trit to rule them all, One Trit to find them, One Trit to bring them all, and in the veldspar bind them"
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Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.07.31 05:26:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Hllaxiu
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
Warp to gang member? Leadership bonuses?
I would say those factor in...
Leadership bonuses are more or less irrelevant, warp problems would only basically add a little bit of extra overhead in terms of more covert ops ships. It would only **** people off and not solve anything. I mean, if you have 100 people ready to defend your territory and theres 100 people attacking, how do you resolve it? Die roll?
...
The aggressor has the same limitations the defender has.
~Sobe
Captain Cutie, Razor's Kiss
Combat Pilot and looking for a corp? Check AGSYN out here |
Sorja
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Posted - 2005.07.31 05:28:00 -
[53]
I could be wrong, but after most pilots had logged off, we logged back in and actually had a very good fight with still 180+ pilots in the system, so I wonder if problems don't arise mainly when jumping in a system.
That would mean (but again it might be observer error), that if 'some code' was implemented to automatically emergency warp people near a gate when lots of people are jumping in, fleets could regroup and have rather lag-free fights later on.
Not sure it would be an ideal situation, but anything would be better than what we experienced tonight.
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Imran
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Posted - 2005.07.31 07:04:00 -
[54]
All i am going to say is...
python sucks :P ^^
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Caeden Nicomachean
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Posted - 2005.07.31 07:22:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Imran
All i am going to say is...
python sucks :P ^^
RECODE IN PERL.
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Stormfront
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Posted - 2005.07.31 07:48:00 -
[56]
Quote:
11.7.2005
New Online Record
Yesterday, Sunday, you set a new online player record when 12.895 of you were playing at the same time! No reports of lag were reported, the 'cold war edition' seems to have yet again lessened the server load.
What BS are you guys talking about.
Didn't you read CCPs post regarding "No reports of lag were reported"
Oh wait, I heard about this one fight in B-Vip that ended in absolute disaster for CCPs nodes and for the ppl in system.
CCPs response.. lock thread and provide no response
Heres another. Taking bets $5 says its locked within the next 2-3 pages.
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Elysabef Kutakis
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Posted - 2005.07.31 08:00:00 -
[57]
I'm surprised there arent Fleet Management skills and penalties to promote small scale engagements, to stop server overload.
- Fleet Management skills to give bonuses to hit, to defence etc.
- Huge combat penalties for oversized fleets of gang, corporation or alliance vessels in the same area.
Perhaps this requires a change of thinking. With corporations having a degree of etiquette in spreading same-sized fleets into neighbouring areas, to avoid the lag? Thus making battles both manageable and a test of skill? After all,, if you prove your skill in one area, you can always be called in as reinforcements to the other area. Same result, numbers wise.
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Face Lifter
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Posted - 2005.07.31 08:03:00 -
[58]
Limiting number of people in a system seems like the best solution right now
It's hard to pick a number, it's best to let the server test itself for lag, then when lag exceeds 2 seconds for period of 30 seconds, prevent more people from coming in. In case of login, teleport them out
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Harry Voyager
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Posted - 2005.07.31 08:54:00 -
[59]
You'll generate the same problems Shatter Galaxy had, with its hard caps.
Basically, you weren't allowed to participate unless you were an established Uber character, or were suddenly caught on the defensive. New players were systematically diven out of the game by vets, who actually wanted to win fights, and the game now has all of 500 people registered to play it.
Somehow, I don't think Eve really wants to start hemorrhaging players that way.
Harry Voyager
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.07.31 08:55:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Face Lifter
Limiting number of people in a system seems like the best solution right now
Yep, it's not like this can ever be abused
________________________________________________________
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.07.31 09:01:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Meridius
Originally by: Face Lifter
Limiting number of people in a system seems like the best solution right now
Yep, it's not like this can ever be abused
Yeah, no one would never just blob up their alts in a choke point to prevent a hostile force from passing through.
uh-huh, no way.
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Kar Brogan
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Posted - 2005.07.31 10:07:00 -
[62]
I think the source needs to be looked at i.e. the overwhelming tactical advantage of blobbing given current game mechanics.
Multiple smaller, easly destroyable structures that can be deployed in a claimed system and provide usefull tactical and economic bonuses/tools may be one way of doing this.Give them a relativly quick 'un-anchor' time (20 to 30 minutes) and not only do you change the goal of big fights, but you also encourage both sides to spread out across multiple systems.
Permanent, accurate longrange probes
Remote repair structures
Super-sized cans that require the system to be claimed
Structures that produce NPC goods at a steady slow rate
and thats after 30 seconds thought.... |
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