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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Whitehound
927
   |
Posted - 2013.02.22 11:53:00 -
[31] - Quote
OldWolf69 wrote:Whitehound wrote:Something is OP when after careful consideration and all reasoning it remains as the only choice for having success and its alternatives lead to failure. lol, rly? succes is OP, might be... 
I see you prefer to fail.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
24
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 12:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
A bit off the topic ..........Il be straight forward with you lot ...for me ONE OF THE BIGGEST OPGÇÖS OUT THERE (forget ship balancing) IS BLOBS ...that in a nutshell imo is the biggest cancer and game breaking aspect of Eve. If CCP is really serious about cause and effect ... I would institute a separate indicator, called reputation. If your in a fleet of 10 pilots and you go and gank a lone pilot somewhere out there then you should get a negative reputation over time. Not even mentioning the word honourable, what is so special on your kill board if you outnumber your enemy 5-1 on every engagement?
If you have a negative rep then you should have a difficult time getting along anywhere in New Eden. I mean letGÇÖs bring honour back to Eve and really start sorting balancing aspects out.....!
I mean do a back ground formula ..on every engagement ...(Ships value + members sp in fleet) vs (Ships Value + members sp in fleet ) = reputation build up. ...pos or neg with a little message that says this engagement will influence your reputation negative or positive , do you want to continue?... It shouldnt be huge ...but enough over a long period of time to pretty much describe your reputation as a pilot.
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OldWolf69
IR0N.
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
21
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Posted - 2013.02.22 12:33:00 -
[33] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:OldWolf69 wrote:Whitehound wrote:Something is OP when after careful consideration and all reasoning it remains as the only choice for having success and its alternatives lead to failure. lol, rly? succes is OP, might be... I see you prefer to fail.
...now maybe you care to explain how did you get to this conclusion? |
Whitehound
929
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 12:45:00 -
[34] - Quote
OldWolf69 wrote:Whitehound wrote:OldWolf69 wrote:Whitehound wrote:Something is OP when after careful consideration and all reasoning it remains as the only choice for having success and its alternatives lead to failure. lol, rly? succes is OP, might be... I see you prefer to fail. ...now maybe you care to explain how did you get to this conclusion?
You seem to be making no connection between your choices and your success.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
OldWolf69
IR0N.
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
21
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 12:51:00 -
[35] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:OldWolf69 wrote:Whitehound wrote:OldWolf69 wrote:Whitehound wrote:Something is OP when after careful consideration and all reasoning it remains as the only choice for having success and its alternatives lead to failure. lol, rly? succes is OP, might be... I see you prefer to fail. ...now maybe you care to explain how did you get to this conclusion? You seem to be making no connection between your choices and your success.
...just because i suggested that things leading to succes might be OP, considering what YOU said upper?
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Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
24
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Posted - 2013.02.22 12:54:00 -
[36] - Quote
Wolf just leave it ...the man is old and berridled ...! Not even I know wtf hes point is, but is sounded intellegent. |
Whitehound
929
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 13:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
OldWolf69 wrote:...just because i suggested that things leading to succes might be OP, considering what YOU said upper?
Do you believe something could be OP when choosing it meant that it did not lead to success?
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Black Cadelanne
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 13:21:00 -
[38] - Quote
Over Played resp. 42 |
OldWolf69
IR0N.
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
22
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Posted - 2013.02.22 13:24:00 -
[39] - Quote
Whitehound wrote:OldWolf69 wrote:...just because i suggested that things leading to succes might be OP, considering what YOU said upper?
Maybe not the succes-giver is OP, just the alteratives are too fail to be considered? And maybe working at the alternatives might be not as fail as a continuous nerf on the good things? Maybe WORK should be a alternative for the 70% of items, wich are pretty useless, and need a buff? Lol, i love the broken-toys lovers! ... I see your edit now! I did not think an "old wolf" would be capable of rolling over. I learn new every day.
...then you not a lost cause. |
Jame Jarl Retief
Murientor Tribe
Defiant Legacy
1044
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 14:09:00 -
[40] - Quote
Well, usually whatever is overpowered is overrepresented. That's how you spot something overpowered - people go with what works, not with something that works half the time or only works when you do everything right.
Case in point, look at Drakes and Hurricanes. Look at their usage statistics published by CCP. You don't need to be a rocket surgeon to see that Drake, for what it was, was grossly overpowered. It was cheap, very effective, didn't require a long skill-up (since T2 HMS did not require T2 of every smaller missile type, unlike guns), and didn't require much skill (since missiles hit regardless of transversal and don't have a falloff, don't need cap and aren't affected by EWAR (FFs)).
This can be observed in other games as well. For instance, if you look at Guild Wars 2, shortly after release it became obvious to everyone that a Thief could kill any other class in under 3 seconds. No other class in the game could do that. And though this could only be done once every 2 minutes, and you had to do everything right to pull it off, it was just far too one-sided and decisive not to use. Similarly, some classes, when tanked up, were nary-unkillable, even by thieves. As a result, within two months of launch, most random PvP games were chock-full of just those 2-3 classes. And you were lucky to see the underdog classes once every 10 games.
Going further back in time, take a look at WoW. Where out of 100 top-rated 5v5 Arena teams, 90%+ had a shaman in them. But only 7% had a druid. Guess why that is? Simple, Shaman provided a huge force multiplier in form of Bloodlust/Heroism buff (30% damage increase for everyone on your team for 40 seconds). NOTHING any other class could bring provided such a huge boon to the team. Hence, everyone and their grandma had a shammy on their team. It was a grossly overpowered ability. But since Blizzard sucks at balancing almost as much as CCP, they turned a blind eye to it for years. As far as I know, it's still there, and a shaman in a 5v5 is practically mandatory. Similarly, in the first arena season, rogue/mage/priest combination in 3v3 provided such synergy that it handily beat most other combos, pretty much regardless of skill. Just because their damage and control abilities did not overlap to cause diminishing returns, like for example a team with a priest/warlock would. As such, most high rated teams were, predictably, rogue/mage/priest, or "RMP" as they were lovingly known.
That's pretty much it in a nutshell. As it relates to EVE, just see what most people fly. And make your own conclusions. You can explain some of it away, like "it's a fleet doctrine!" Well, in a balanced game, there should be more than an even chance of any other race's ship being chosen for a fleet doctrine. And if it's not, then the balance is not where it should be. |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
2258
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 14:12:00 -
[41] - Quote
I THOUGHT BECAUSE THE TOPIC WAS IN CAPS AND HAD A GM TAG THIS WAS A REALLY IMPORTANT THREAD
But no. |
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CCP Prism X
C C P
C C P Alliance
1140
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 14:20:00 -
[42] - Quote
Jake Warbird wrote:I THOUGHT BECAUSE THE TOPIC WAS IN CAPS AND HAD A GM TAG THIS WAS A REALLY IMPORTANT THREAD
But no.
Dev tag.. not GM tag!
@CCP_PrismX
EVE Database Developer and Expert Ranter
Member of Team Pony Express |
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Aren Madigan
EVE University
Ivy League
89
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 14:33:00 -
[43] - Quote
For me OP is pretty simple. If there is only one accepted way of doing something despite other methods being provided, there is something wrong. For example, if there are four ships that are built as sniper ships, all of them doing a good job at it, but one does such a great job at it to the point you're insulted if you don't use that ship over the others, then its probably OP. |
OldWolf69
IR0N.
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
22
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 14:39:00 -
[44] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Well, usually whatever is overpowered is overrepresented. That's how you spot something overpowered - people go with what works, not with something that works half the time or only works when you do everything right.
.
In a game in wich we have racial tanks, damage and ships, and we also supposed to crosstrain...we can talk about overpowered stuff? For me, personally, the solution looks exactly like what the commies did to all their slaves. They did improve nothing, they just made them all poor. Why have a hard time to evoluate when you can do it easy, and involuate? And also have a good laugh about people trying to do it right with improper stuff?
We didn't get a real explaination, a valid one, for what OP means, related to this game, yet... |
OldWolf69
IR0N.
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
22
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 14:48:00 -
[45] - Quote
Aren Madigan wrote:For me OP is pretty simple. If there is only one accepted way of doing something despite other methods being provided, there is something wrong. For example, if there are four ships that are built as sniper ships, all of them doing a good job at it, but one does such a great job at it to the point you're insulted if you don't use that ship over the others, then its probably OP.
This.
Sadly, this won't apply to nothing. Let's say we pick cruisers. Every race has a cruiser wich is best, or at least decent, to a precise task. Other races are for that task useless. There's no 4 race cruisers good at the same thing. We have one able to do the task, and rest of 3 are trash. Correct solution is to kill the good one, and leave the rest being also ****** as they were before?
Eve's ships are meant to be oportunistic and task oriented. |
Zimmy Zeta
RvB - RED Federation
8577
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 14:51:00 -
[46] - Quote
Jake Warbird wrote:I THOUGHT BECAUSE THE TOPIC WAS IN CAPS AND HAD A GM DEV TAG THIS WAS A REALLY IMPORTANT THREAD
But no.
e:dohhhh
My thoughts exactly.
CAPSLOCK IS OP
Please don't feed me. |
Whitehound
931
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 15:27:00 -
[47] - Quote
OldWolf69 wrote:Aren Madigan wrote:For me OP is pretty simple. If there is only one accepted way of doing something despite other methods being provided, there is something wrong. For example, if there are four ships that are built as sniper ships, all of them doing a good job at it, but one does such a great job at it to the point you're insulted if you don't use that ship over the others, then its probably OP. This. Sadly, this won't apply to nothing. Let's say we pick cruisers. Every race has a cruiser wich is best, or at least decent, to a precise task. Other races are for that task useless. There's no 4 race cruisers good at the same thing. We have one able to do the task, and rest of 3 are trash. Correct solution is to kill the good one, and leave the rest being also ****** as they were before? Eve's ships are meant to be oportunistic and task oriented.
You assume that the ships are required to copy a task, which is wrong. They do not need to copy it, but they need to act as a counter to it. Being able to copy another ship can then be the counter, but it does not necessarily have to be.
When then one ship stands out, because the other ships fail to counter its success is it OP.
Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling. |
Joran Dravius
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
126
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 16:04:00 -
[48] - Quote
Captain Africa wrote:With the ship rebalancing program well on its way, pruning legendary ships to mere metal scraps all in the name of GÇ£Ship BalanceGÇ¥ makes you wonder where that very thin line between overpower and just right lies.
Considering the following :
-Your training time vs. your capabilities & survivability.
-The cost of a ship vs. capabilities & survivability.
-Fun factor
I find this quite difficult to grasp let alone answer, can you make any sense of this?
Nobody should be at a disadvantage because they trained the wrong race. The ships should be different, but equal. Screw anyone who thinks people shouldn't use anything but minmatar in PvP and caldari in PvE. |
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
438
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 16:45:00 -
[49] - Quote
OP to me: Something that is SIGNIFICANTLY better at doing something than a ship that is suppose to be about equal level with it.
OP to the community: Any ship that is good is OP.
I accidentally my assets, is this bad?-á |
Takseen
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
266
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 16:47:00 -
[50] - Quote
The battlecruisers, obviously. You've already established that there's not a huge difference in the ISK investment on either side. Two years is plenty of time to get to grips with pvp. 80mil combat sp, majority of that is likely not being utilised in any particular fight.
Bringing an extra player with 100million in ships+fittings should ALWAYS be better than slapping 100m more ISK onto your own ship+fittings. |
Takseen
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
266
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 16:53:00 -
[51] - Quote
Captain Africa wrote:A bit off the topic ..........Il be straight forward with you lot ...for me ONE OF THE BIGGEST OPGÇÖS OUT THERE (forget ship balancing) IS BLOBS ...that in a nutshell imo is the biggest cancer and game breaking aspect of Eve. If CCP is really serious about cause and effect ... I would institute a separate indicator, called reputation. If your in a fleet of 10 pilots and you go and gank a lone pilot somewhere out there then you should get a negative reputation over time. Not even mentioning the word honourable, what is so special on your kill board if you outnumber your enemy 5-1 on every engagement?
Since there's a time honoured Eve tradition of finding a way to subvert any attempt at using game mechanics to influence behaviour, I give you...rep griefing.
Get a rookie ship, fit some warp scrams and webs, find a slow ship in a big fleet and tackle it. If anyone shoots you, they all take a reputation hit. |
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
24
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 17:45:00 -
[52] - Quote
Zimmy Zeta wrote:Jake Warbird wrote:I THOUGHT BECAUSE THE TOPIC WAS IN CAPS AND HAD A GM DEV TAG THIS WAS A REALLY IMPORTANT THREAD
But no.
e:dohhhh My thoughts exactly. CAPSLOCK IS OP
Dont blame the OP if this post is not about the Op but really all about the OP............Now put that in your milk shake and suck it up your nose! |
Captain Africa
GRIM MARCH
SpaceMonkey's Alliance
24
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 17:56:00 -
[53] - Quote
Takseen wrote:Captain Africa wrote:A bit off the topic ..........Il be straight forward with you lot ...for me ONE OF THE BIGGEST OPGÇÖS OUT THERE (forget ship balancing) IS BLOBS ...that in a nutshell imo is the biggest cancer and game breaking aspect of Eve. If CCP is really serious about cause and effect ... I would institute a separate indicator, called reputation. If your in a fleet of 10 pilots and you go and gank a lone pilot somewhere out there then you should get a negative reputation over time. Not even mentioning the word honourable, what is so special on your kill board if you outnumber your enemy 5-1 on every engagement?
Since there's a time honoured Eve tradition of finding a way to subvert any attempt at using game mechanics to influence behaviour, I give you...rep griefing. Get a rookie ship, fit some warp scrams and webs, find a slow ship in a big fleet and tackle it. If anyone shoots you, they all take a reputation hit.
Takseen is that the best you can do ....Eve is a bit more complex than that ,dont you think ? Its an idea stage ... you want to start a little chess game of "game mechaniks"...we can go there  |
Lord Fudo
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
8
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 18:44:00 -
[54] - Quote
Overpowered to me means people are either too lazy or just not creative enough to create a counter measure. So a ship/module is then deemed OP, because its easier to just say something is OP than to do something to counter it. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
1736
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 19:00:00 -
[55] - Quote
Captain Africa wrote:With the ship rebalancing program well on its way, pruning legendary ships to mere metal scraps all in the name of GÇ£Ship BalanceGÇ¥ makes you wonder where that very thin line between overpower and just right lies.
Considering the following :
-Your training time vs. your capabilities & survivability.
-The cost of a ship vs. capabilities & survivability.
-Fun factor
I find this quite difficult to grasp let alone answer, can you make any sense of this?
I would troll you and accuse you of being a drake or hurricane pilot, but page 3 isn't worth the effort.
Instead I'll just call CCP Prism X a youngin' and say OP was a hip brand of clothing before there were any megalomanac egomaniacs who could, and would, kick you out of chat channels.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
2404
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 19:18:00 -
[56] - Quote
If there is a blob of 50+ of a single ship, that ship is OP.
If there is a blob of 100+ of a single ship, that ship is superOP.
If there is a blob of 500+ of a single ship, that ship is OMGNERFTHESHITOUTTADATSHIPBECAUSEITSWTFBBQOP!!!!!!!!!
Also, according to highsec, anything the goons fly is OP.
Also, according to goons, anything highsec flys that can tank the goons, is OP.
According to Chuck Norris, nothing is OP.
Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings? |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
2875
|
Posted - 2013.02.22 19:24:00 -
[57] - Quote
A ship is OP if it significantly outperforms other ships in its own class.
A game feature is OP if it yields excessive rewards relative the risk and effort required.
A player is OP if his name is Rareden.
Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement. |
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