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Arronicus
Vintas Industries Mistakes Were Made.
259
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Posted - 2013.02.23 03:46:00 -
[31] - Quote
The solution here is simple: Ditch the lacklustre rep bonus and replace it with a resistance bonus on all ships with the rep bonus. Let the players decide if they want to buffer, or active. |
Rain6637
Team Evil
514
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 03:49:00 -
[32] - Quote
lacklustre oh you fancy, huh http://themittani.com/ | http://evenews24.com/ || Vincent Athena-á||-áflycatcher waaaaat |
Pr1ncess Alia
Perkone Caldari State
270
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Posted - 2013.02.23 08:46:00 -
[33] - Quote
I'm sure CCP will address this imbalance the way they do all imbalances.
Wait 2-3years until they can sell the fix as part of a themed expansion,
then rework the entire system into something that increases the imbalance and introduces new problems.
Seriously? I think they were on the right track, but somewhere along the line they wandered off the path and just kept walking like "whatev, I got this"
So much work and so many good ideas come out of CCP, when you look at AAR vs ASB, two modules recently balanced with each other in mind.... it hurts the brain to wonder how they could have missed the mark by SO MUCH. |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
267
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Posted - 2013.02.23 09:29:00 -
[34] - Quote
Nomad I wrote:@Fozzie: There is a world outside one versus one.
Without resistences med sized fights with triage carriers are not doable. Logistics is always more effective with more resistences. This, local reps will NEVER be able to stop 100 people shooting you without breaking small gang PVP. "Don't count on others for help. In the end each of us is in this alone. The survivors are those who know how to look out for themselves." |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
46
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Posted - 2013.02.23 11:53:00 -
[35] - Quote
WTF is this from?
Also listening to it all the way through atm, wtf is TACK? |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
324
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Posted - 2013.02.23 12:25:00 -
[36] - Quote
ITTigerClawIK wrote: ...then you got the AAR that not only needs the charges but still uses cap, still has a WAY longer Cycle time for what is still a very modest rep amount boost.
An ASB is limited by cargo space while AAR are not. So thankfully they DO use cap, becaues otherwise it would just be cheated.
And for the "modest rep amount boost", T2 large armor repair repairs 800, while T1 (remember this is T1 module) Large AAR repairs 1350. You armor guys are never satisfied aren't ya ?
G££ <= Me |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
391
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Posted - 2013.02.23 13:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
Altrue wrote:An ASB is limited by cargo space while AAR are not. So thankfully they DO use cap, becaues otherwise it would just be cheated.
And for the "modest rep amount boost", T2 large armor repair repairs 800, while T1 (remember this is T1 module) Large AAR repairs 1350. You armor guys are never satisfied aren't ya ?
A medium AAR repairs 45 HP/s An L-ASB boosts 97,8 HP/s An XL-ASB boosts 196 HP/s
You shield guys never want balance do ya? |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
799
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Posted - 2013.02.23 14:53:00 -
[38] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:La Nariz wrote:The solution here is simple increase the repair bonus to bring it inline with the resistance bonus. Except that it is in line. The EHP pr cycle is almost completely the same on a ship with 5% resist and a ship with 7.5% repair amount. The problem is that the ship with resist bonus also get a lot more EHP from remote repairing and a lot bigger buffer tank. Not sure if your statement was serious....
Then obviously it is not inline otherwise we wouldn't be having that issue. I don't why your bringing that up in your first statement, if they are considered equal yet the active tank bonuses are still bad then its time to try increasing the active tank bonus. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
799
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 14:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:La Nariz wrote:The solution here is simple increase the repair bonus to bring it inline with the resistance bonus. Welp, if you increase that rep amount, I can still fit them to my resist bonused hull, making it exponentially better. Resists in this case would be even better.
Not the repair amount of the module, the repair bonus on the hull. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
391
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Posted - 2013.02.23 14:58:00 -
[40] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:La Nariz wrote:The solution here is simple increase the repair bonus to bring it inline with the resistance bonus. Welp, if you increase that rep amount, I can still fit them to my resist bonused hull, making it exponentially better. Resists in this case would be even better. Not the repair amount of the module, the repair bonus on the hull. To what? Fozzie said that even a 10% bonus is still inferior to the 5% resist bonus. In what world do you think they would ever increase the bonus to 15%? |
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La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
800
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Posted - 2013.02.23 15:03:00 -
[41] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:La Nariz wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:La Nariz wrote:The solution here is simple increase the repair bonus to bring it inline with the resistance bonus. Welp, if you increase that rep amount, I can still fit them to my resist bonused hull, making it exponentially better. Resists in this case would be even better. Not the repair amount of the module, the repair bonus on the hull. To what? Fozzie said that even a 10% bonus is still inferior to the 5% resist bonus. In what world do you think they would ever increase the bonus to 15%?
The world where they want both tanking systems to be viable and equal. Another idea is giving them a cap reduction to local repair bonus in addition to their increase in repair amount. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
844
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Posted - 2013.02.23 15:35:00 -
[42] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Hannott Thanos wrote:La Nariz wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:La Nariz wrote:The solution here is simple increase the repair bonus to bring it inline with the resistance bonus. Welp, if you increase that rep amount, I can still fit them to my resist bonused hull, making it exponentially better. Resists in this case would be even better. Not the repair amount of the module, the repair bonus on the hull. To what? Fozzie said that even a 10% bonus is still inferior to the 5% resist bonus. In what world do you think they would ever increase the bonus to 15%? The world where they want both tanking systems to be viable and equal. Another idea is giving them a cap reduction to local repair bonus in addition to their increase in repair amount.
i like that idea!
no really i do. one of the problems with active tanks is the cap consumption... reducing the cap by 37.5% will greatly reduce the amount of either cap rechargers i need for pve or cap boosters for pvp plus wont hurt hybrid setups that much.
that with reworking the 5% to resist bonus to being a 5% to effectivness of passive resist mods will bring balance to the two respective bonus.
At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
fukier
RISE of LEGION
844
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 16:12:00 -
[43] - Quote
I think another way to bring balance to armor is to rework armor plates...
fozz did this kinda by reducing mass on some of the plates but even him said that plates like 50 mm are useless...
so how about rebalance all the plates then?
what i would do is turn the plates into small medium and large versions (i would change the fittings so you cant fit a medium on a small ship and a large on a medium ship)
i would also get rid of the 50 mm 100 mm and so on names and replace with ligh and heavy variates for the three fittings levels
i would first make the light plates 800mm, 200mm and 50mm and increase thier base hp increase to 75% of thier current heavy versions so a 50mm or small light would add 141 armor
and for the heavy versions i would increase the hp boost by 25% so for 100mm, 400mm and 1600mm and then increase mass by 25% so the new small heavy armor plate would give you 235 armour and mass adition of 46875 kg
This would make the honeycomb skill usefull for light plates. At the end of the game both the pawn and the Queen go in the same box. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3172
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Posted - 2013.02.23 18:29:00 -
[44] - Quote
fukier wrote: fozz did this kinda by reducing mass on some of the plates but even him said that plates like 50 mm are useless...
so how about rebalance all the plates then?
what i would do is turn the plates into small medium and large versions (i would change the fittings so you cant fit a medium on a small ship and a large on a medium ship)
i would also get rid of the 50 mm 100 mm and so on names and replace with ligh and heavy variates for the three fittings levels
There's pretty much nothing he can do to make 50mm and 100mm plates useful. His first inclination is to delete them outright.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Roime
Shiva Furnace
2059
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 20:25:00 -
[45] - Quote
Hannott Thanos wrote:La Nariz wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:La Nariz wrote:The solution here is simple increase the repair bonus to bring it inline with the resistance bonus. Welp, if you increase that rep amount, I can still fit them to my resist bonused hull, making it exponentially better. Resists in this case would be even better. Not the repair amount of the module, the repair bonus on the hull. To what? Fozzie said that even a 10% bonus is still inferior to the 5% resist bonus. In what world do you think they would ever increase the bonus to 15%?
Fozzie means that in general context, rep bonus is only useful in solo/micro gang pvp, resist bonus helps in everything. However 10% rep amount bonus would be clearly superior to 5% resists when using local reps, the 7.5% already is better but by a very, very thin margin and only when you pile on the reppers.
-á- All I really wanted was to build a castle among the stars - |
DJWiggles
Eve Radio Corporation
48
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Posted - 2013.02.23 20:49:00 -
[46] - Quote
Caldari 5 wrote:WTF is this from?
Also listening to it all the way through atm, wtf is TACK?
Its from the radio show I do EVERY week. We had Fozzie on this week to talk about 1.1 and how good CCP think it has gone Live on Eve Radio Wednesdays 20:00 GMT with me & friends blabbering on about Eve and stuff-áFollow me on twitter http://twitter.com/WigglesGRN, like me on facebook http://facebook.com/wigglesGRN or check out my blog http://wiggles.gamingradio.net/blog
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Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
906
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 21:03:00 -
[47] - Quote
What's this all about? Just reduce the resist bonus from 5 to 4% and see what happens. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008. |
Saul Elsyn
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
60
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Posted - 2013.02.23 21:08:00 -
[48] - Quote
Well... it's always been like this in some ways. Resist bonuses are ideal for large scale PvP with fleets and so forth since reps can almost never keep up and resists will therefore keep you from popping in the alpha of that first volley and hopefully get a couple more shots off. Even if they upped the rep bonus to 10% the 5% bonus to resist would have a role in large scale pvp between buffer fitted fleets of battleships.
Still the biggest problem with active reps in pvp in small gangs is their cost in cap. It's why the ASB and AAR will be the main modules for 'tanking' in small scale gang combat for a long time to come I'd wager. The idea of a cap stable tanking ships is almost exclusive to PvE... but maybe reducing the cap cost for local reps would encourage more variety in fittings. |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
396
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 21:14:00 -
[49] - Quote
Replace "5% local rep bonus per level" with "10% bonus to EHP and local rep per level".
Problem solved? |
Lapine Davion
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
542
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 21:30:00 -
[50] - Quote
I really need to focus. I thought the thread title said "Racist Bonuses", despite having seen this thread all day. Don't worry about posting with your main! -áPost with your brain! "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." |
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Mr Ignitious
Aperture Harmonics K162
9
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Posted - 2013.02.23 22:29:00 -
[51] - Quote
Nomad I wrote:@Fozzie: There is a world outside one versus one.
Without resistences med sized fights with triage carriers are not doable. Logistics is always more effective with more resistences.
A lot of people are entirely missing the point of ASB and AARs: They are NOT SUPPOSED TO BE FOR FLEETS. They are supposed to better for small engagements, and LSE's and plates for fleets to keep you from getting blapped.
In fact, it's becoming a problem how frequently people are using ASB's as superior buffer tanks to LSE's. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7814
|
Posted - 2013.02.23 22:39:00 -
[52] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:fukier wrote: fozz did this kinda by reducing mass on some of the plates but even him said that plates like 50 mm are useless...
so how about rebalance all the plates then?
what i would do is turn the plates into small medium and large versions (i would change the fittings so you cant fit a medium on a small ship and a large on a medium ship)
i would also get rid of the 50 mm 100 mm and so on names and replace with ligh and heavy variates for the three fittings levels
There's pretty much nothing he can do to make 50mm and 100mm plates useful. His first inclination is to delete them outright. -Liang
On a related note, what about small shield extenders? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Caldari 5
The Element Syndicate
46
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Posted - 2013.02.24 05:29:00 -
[53] - Quote
DJWiggles wrote:Caldari 5 wrote:WTF is this from?
Also listening to it all the way through atm, wtf is TACK? Its from the radio show I do EVERY week. We had Fozzie on this week to talk about 1.1 and how good CCP think it has gone
Radio Show? which station and where is it?
I re-listened to the show again, I think I figured out what the TACK was, it is a "-" Hyphen/Dash/Minus sign, I've never heard it called TACK before. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
617
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 13:22:00 -
[54] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:La Nariz wrote:The solution here is simple increase the repair bonus to bring it inline with the resistance bonus. Welp, if you increase that rep amount, I can still fit them to my resist bonused hull, making it exponentially better. Resists in this case would be even better. Not the repair amount of the module, the repair bonus on the hull.
Exactly. The reason why I think this active repair bonus should be a little better and should be slightly increased without touching the current AAR modules. (at frigate size rep is already balanced imho) *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
617
|
Posted - 2013.02.24 13:29:00 -
[55] - Quote
DJWiggles wrote:Caldari 5 wrote:WTF is this from?
Also listening to it all the way through atm, wtf is TACK? Its from the radio show I do EVERY week. We had Fozzie on this week to talk about 1.1 and how good CCP think it has gone
Excellent work by the way, thank you.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Tribal Band
405
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 06:25:00 -
[56] - Quote
ITTigerClawIK wrote:that and the fact that the ASB not only uses no cap with boosters, but also makes amuch better rep burst tank, then you got the AAR that not only needs the charges but still uses cap, still has a WAY longer Cycle time for what is still a very modest rep amount boost. I haven't used the AAR yet but I'm thinking that if it were to be able to run a lot more cycles than the ASB before needing to reload and if it reloaded quickly, it would be balanced just fine. It makes shields great for burst tanking and armor great for sustained tank. When you want armor for burst tank, you buffer tank. When you want shields for sustained tank, you buffer tank. Mittani, where have you gone to? I miss you :( |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1021
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 08:21:00 -
[57] - Quote
Does Fozzie have like a yearly nerf quota or something? EvE Forum Bingo |
Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
398
|
Posted - 2013.02.25 08:25:00 -
[58] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:ITTigerClawIK wrote:that and the fact that the ASB not only uses no cap with boosters, but also makes amuch better rep burst tank, then you got the AAR that not only needs the charges but still uses cap, still has a WAY longer Cycle time for what is still a very modest rep amount boost. I haven't used the AAR yet but I'm thinking that if it were to be able to run a lot more cycles than the ASB before needing to reload and if it reloaded quickly, it would be balanced just fine. It makes shields great for burst tanking and armor great for sustained tank. When you want armor for burst tank, you buffer tank. When you want shields for sustained tank, you buffer tank. Agree. They are very clear on the "armor should not be equal to shield." and "armor is supposed to be a more sustained type of tank."
And yet, the AAR has all the downsides and none of the benefits of the ASB*
*Ok, you can run it after it's out of charges for a stupidly small amount of rep. |
DJWiggles
Eve Radio Corporation
49
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Posted - 2013.02.25 17:17:00 -
[59] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:DJWiggles wrote:Caldari 5 wrote:WTF is this from?
Also listening to it all the way through atm, wtf is TACK? Its from the radio show I do EVERY week. We had Fozzie on this week to talk about 1.1 and how good CCP think it has gone Excellent work by the way, thank you.
Your welcome, catch it every week :) Live on Eve Radio Wednesdays 20:00 GMT with me & friends blabbering on about Eve and stuff-áFollow me on twitter http://twitter.com/WigglesGRN, like me on facebook http://facebook.com/wigglesGRN or check out my blog http://wiggles.gamingradio.net/blog
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