projectiles kind of suck for missioning

Umm. They really don't. A well fit and flown Sleipnir, for instance, is one of the few medium ships to be vaguely competitive in L4s (and will utterly annihilate L3s).

In general, L3s are going to be heavy on cruisers and BCs with a decent number of frigates/destroyers. Anything fit to handle all that at range will do them without a problem. If you're in a Vexor now, a Myrmidon would be the next logical step up -- and yes, it's now a viable sentry boat.

use some perspective, do you really think he's capable of flying a sleipnir?

yes hypothetically you can do missions with projectiles but not with anything this particular player can use.

Best missioning attributes: tank, gank and damage projection.

Name me a projectile based BC that has any of these. Wait you can't because the only one is the cane and that has either terrible projection or terrible dps with below average tank.

I'm aware different factions of NPC have different attributes (defender missiles, TD ect.) but i dont know what factions i will meet in minmatar space lvl 3s and 4s. Can anyone tell me what I should expect to be dealing with in minmatar missions or recommend a type of ship that is well suited to the area.

Obviously not, no.



Let's look at two L3 fits. First a Drake:

[Drake, L3s]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Large Shield Extender II
Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
Shield Recharger II
EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I

234 omni defense, 361 kinetic DPS (or 241 non-kinetic which yuck). Missiles hit out to 62.9 (figure 60ish in reality). 384m/s should be enough to kite somewhat effectively, meaning the damn thing is actually overtanked.

Oh, all my skills by the by.

And let's look at this Hurricane:

[Hurricane, L3s]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Power Diagnostic System II

Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP M
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I

So first thing's first: you either need to swap the PDU for an RCU or use a 3% grid implant. PDU is nice because it helps the tank a bit, but obviously that's a tradeoff.

122 omni defense (easily bumped up by using specific hardeners), 444 DPS with any short range ammo (which makes the Hurricane much more flexible on damage type) at 19+36 (so at optimal+half falloff of 37, you're hitting for 80% damage, which comes to 355.2). 480m/s makes the cane way faster and more or less able to dictate the field.

So, assuming no issues with tracking or target signature, the Hurricane and the Drake do about the same damage at 37 with the Hurricane winning closer in and the Drake pulling ahead further out. However, the Hurricane also gets all the advantages that guns always get: instant damage, a relationship between tracking and radial velocity, etc. Oh, and it can pick damage types. Which is kind of a big deal, especially since the Drake really can't anymore.

I don't know about you, but I'd take that Hurricane any day of the week. And I'd also take it over the new Prophecy hands down simply because drone babysitting is yuck. The Myrmidon is a viable competitor if and only if it's using sentries. Harbinger is... not so good. Brutix and Ferox can both get the job done. But I'd still take the Hurricane under most circumstances.

It's ok to be wrong, but it's a bit embarrassing when you write a wall of text with such confidence and it turns out to be a bunch of garbage.
Stop trying to make out that a hurricane can mission more effectively than a drake: because it can't.

Stop making theories and try actually fly Hurricane in PVE. Hurricane with passive tank and arty was used for long time and worked perfectly for any level 3 mission.
No one here with sane mind will recommend battlecruiser for level 4 missions. And because Drake can do it (horribly, in unreasonably large amount of time) this doesn't mean that OP should do it or anybody else.

There is normal common training schedule for Minmatar pilot: Hurricane -> T2 Medium Projectiles -> Maelstrom -> T2 Large Projectiles -> Machariel
Please don't try to squeeze your stupid advices with Drake&Drone/Armor ships in it.

did the guy say he was a minmatar pilot?

The guy said he will fly in Minmatar space. And Minmatar ships with projectiles are the most effective choice for Minmatar space. Simple as that.

Not the Drake with spherical pure kinetic damage against Angels with primary hole in explosive resistance.
Not T1 gallente/amarr armor ships with initially weak armor explosive resistance.
Not Drone ships with broken AI mechanic against drones and irrelevant hybrid weapons.

ps: according to your KB losses, you either never trained T2 projectiles and not credible to say anything about their effectiveness, or you just cheap and like to be ineffective just to save couple of isks.

so much clueless in one post, where do I begin?
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/item.php?type_id=24129
primary hole in explosive correct, second lowest resist? Yeah I think you can figure that out yourself.

Initially weak explosive resistances can be easily covered with the proper fittings, you have no ground to stand on here. Prophecy and myrmidon both out tank the cane and still do more effective dps than it even while having to cover the low explosive base resist.

AI mechanics are not broken, they're just not as easy to bypass now.

Sarmatiko, you should already know that Dreak/Tengu are the answer to whatever question may be :)

prophecy if you have drone skills

myrmidon if you have T2 sentries or drone skills

primary hole in explosive correct, second lowest resist? Yeah I think you can figure that out yourself.

10% difference is more than made up by the fact the drake's damage projection is far superior to the cane's.

So you think myrmidons and prophecies use hybrid weapons? Need I go on?

My KB losses are nothing to do with PvE, why even bring that up?

Fixed it for you.

Which in turn is made up for by the fact that the Hurricane can nuke frigates at range and the Drake can't. Seriously, if you're going to be so persistent on damage projection, you at least owe a brief discussion of damage application.



I have no idea what this refers to. There are times I'd put hybrids on them. Not so much in Angel space though.



Except for this one, presumably?

So here we have a Drake in what I assume is your preferred mission fit. Unsure on why you have a damage control after lecturing me about the shield recharger. No rigors, no painter, no damage application to frigates.

So look. I get it. You prefer your Drake and you have all sorts of post hoc justifications for why. It's fine; no one is taking it away from you and there's no law against liking a ship that isn't always ideal under all circumstances. And you know what? It does have appeal. It's an exercise in brainless piloting -- like you said, just approach the next gate while spewing missiles. That can be nice.

But if we're talking about an actual actively-flown gunship the Drake loses out on efficiency. It does less paper damage and it applies it poorly (but yes, at great range!).

How poorly? Well, let's take a look at your fit with my character against a Gistum Marauder. We'll ignore resistance and fire CN Scourge (which is the best thing to use on the bastards available to a Drake). Paper damage is 322, which is ok but not anything to write home about. What happens after running it through the missile damage formula? You're only getting 231.65 DPS. Yes, at any range.

How does that compare to the actively flown Hurricane with 720s that I posted earlier? Not well. At all. Assuming you can minimize transversal, the Hurricane outdamages the Drake up to ~50km. Ok, so what if the Gistum Marauder is orbiting? Well, the 'cane still outdamages the Drake out to 50km, and down to ~9km. In fact, the only scenario where the Drake is competitive is when we maximize velocity in opposite directions -- and then the 'cane still outdamages the Drake between ~27km and ~45km.

So yeah. Another wall of text. This one also proves I don't know what I'm talking about, right?

1. Who gives a damn about frigates, they will die to my drones. If you're wasting a whole 9 second cycle on your artillery just to kill frigates they will have plenty of time to get under your guns because you can only shoot out to 40 or so. Plus you're talking as if turrets are not affected by sig radius: they are. Your guns have a signature resolution similar to how missiles have explosion radius and the damage is reduced even if the target has even at a slight transversal to you. 720s have a tracking speed of about 0.0326, that's easily obtainable by anything smaller than a bc rat and the transversal required to dodge your guns gets lower the smaller the rat is. A frigate with only need 0.01 transversal to you would be pretty much impossible for you to hit.

Also when inevitably the frigates do end up getting under your guns, you only have drones to deal with them and I can still fire missiles at them and with good guided missile precision skills they still can one hit non-elite frigates and do a good chunk to elites.

Damage application is still superior in a drake.

4. Don't know how you're doing your math but optimal+falloff is 45km on your cane fit. At optimal+falloff you drop down to 50% damage which brings you down to 226 dps while still being over 15km off the drake's maximum range. At 9km your 720s will be missing pretty much everything except battleships and glancing blows on bcs.

So yes another wall of garbage from you.

As I said before, the target in question was never a frigate, it was a cruiser. Namely, a Gistum Marauder, a very common Angel mission cruiser. We'll bracket the frigate for our next test, shall we?

Which in turn is made up for by the fact that the Hurricane can nuke frigates at range and the Drake can't. Seriously, if you're going to be so persistent on damage projection, you at least owe a brief discussion of damage application.

blablablabla

All this would be nice except I have no idea how you got a drake to do 266 dps. Mine is at 392 with CN scourge. Do your simulations again with that figure

That's applied damage, not paper damage. Paper on the Drake said 369, and I'm not including drones so drop that pretense.

Try actually reading for comprehension. A max-skilled 3 BCU Drake firing CN Scourge without painter/rigor/flare support only does 266 dps to cruisers despite posting 369 dps on paper.

I didn't include drones either. My fit does 392 with only missiles.

Also I don't understand how you calculated your damage against a 120 sig radius target. According to my calculations a CN scourge will apply full damage to it with guided missile precision V

Stop making assumptions to make yourself look like you have a clue, it just backfires.

the fit is exactly the same in terms of modules that do damage as yours. Just don't understand how you get less damage.

Also you're overestimating/calculating how much velocity is actually a factor in the damage a missile does. With 140 explosion velocity and orbit speed of 225 the damage drops by less than 1%

You can even increase the damage by sacrificing a couple of rigs and still tank better than the cane.

1 rigor 1 flare and 1 catalyst and it still out tanks the cane and bumps it's dps to 402 and bumping explosion velocity to 140.

Well, I figured that one out. HM-703 and RL-1003 take a 3 BCU Drake to exactly 392 at all 5s. Shall we discard those or implant the Hurricane? Either one works for me.

Also you're overestimating/calculating how much velocity is actually a factor in the damage a missile does. With 140 explosion velocity and orbit speed of 225 the damage drops by less than 1%

You can even increase the damage by sacrificing a couple of rigs and still tank better than the cane.

1 rigor 1 flare and 1 catalyst and it still out tanks the cane and bumps it's dps to 402 and bumping explosion velocity to 140.

Yes I know.
I just hope that Tsukino Stareine has been fed enough in this thread and will not continue to spread stupidity.

Meanwhile I have jumped to Hurricane and recorded simple video for OP featuring part of common PVE process on Angel Blockade lvl 3: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1wIdhc4PwvY
It took 20 minutes to kill everything, not caring about triggers and shield never dropped below 60%. Other lvl 3 missions should be much more easier and faster, and for the lvl 4 - Maelstrom is the ship of newbie choice. (old vid from 2.5 years ago).

ps: you can fly Drake and "tank whole room" until pirates (or you) die of boredom, or you can kill everything fast enough, so you don't need any tank at all. That's how Winmatar roll

Since I can only play on my laptop which isn't set up for gaming at all I can't fraps myself clearing level 3 blockade in under 10 minutes in my drake but believe me you just proved everything I've been talking about in this thread in your very nice video.

No. No implants, you must have an old version of EFT.

Again I think your eft is out of date. Run your tests again with my figures

Your trolling was fun for sure, but there is no reason why someone would spend their time to argue with "Drake PTSD" affected pilot. It's just not worth to knock through this thick shield of stupidity

Oh please don't embarrass yourself making video with meta 3 HML fitted Drake slowboating through Angel Blockade.
We already figured that you can't possibly contribute to any constructive discussion.

Your trolling was fun for sure, but there is no reason why someone would spend their time to argue with "Drake PTSD" affected pilot. It's just not worth to knock through this thick shield of stupidity

I just reinstalled and am running a fresh copy. With the same setups I'm seeing the Hurricane outdamaging an orbit-speed target Rupture mimicking a Gistum Marauder from 12km all the way out to 39.1km. The Drake is still 3% over on CPU (but fine, the Hurricane is 3% over on grid). In fact, 39-40km is pretty much the upper break even point under most any transversal conditions.

I'm pretty satisfied that's the final answer in any case.

Now, let's move back to damage types. As you pointed out, kin is the secondary resist hole for Angels. Resists are low enough that a Drake will want to play to its bonuses at BC 3 or higher. The Hurricane is obviously firing fusion, and since we're going with CN on the Drake, we might as well go RF on the Hurricane. A quick comparison shows that a Drake will be doing 64% of listed damage while the Hurricane will be doing 72.3% of listed damage. It's non-trivial to figure out how much that extends the Hurricane's superiority, but roughly 13% more damage after resists should translate to ~4-5km on the long end and ~1-2km on the short end. So the Hurricane is now outdamaging the Drake firing at the same Gistum Marauder flying at a right angle from the aggressor at orbit speed from 11km out to 43km, a 32km engagement window.

Turns out that my laptop can fraps eve and this will put your hurricane to shame: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8ZJUVzczeM&feature=youtu.be.

Cool story bro.
Now please re-read name of the topic and especially part about Minmatar space. Main NPC here is Angel Cartel with explosive resistance, not Serpentis. Your silly trick and "proof of Drake success" will work even better if you record video with Guristas

One last time I will post here actual numbers, because obviously you wont have anything to answer.

Fit: Drake similar to your killmail loss with BCU instead of Damage control and 2 x Invuln II + Exp hardener.
Angel Blockade full completion time: 33 minutes.
Combat log: http://pastebin.com/pi1kUiBh
Escpecially notice damage to Elite criuisers:

[ 2013.03.03 07:17:03 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:17:11 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:17:18 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:17:26 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:17:33 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:17:41 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:17:48 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:17:56 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:18:03 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:18:10 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:18:18 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:18:25 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:18:33 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:18:40 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:18:48 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:18:55 ] (combat) 336 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:19:03 ] (combat) 533 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 07:19:10 ] (combat) 1105 to Arch Gistum Marauder - Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile - Hits

Here is where your Drake missile kinetic damage meets with harsh reality.

Fit: Passive shield Hurricane with meta 3 720 Arty.
Angel Blockade full completion time: 23 minutes
Combat log: http://pastebin.com/25DH7fgs

Here is why turrets are better than missiles:

[ 2013.03.03 08:03:18 ] (combat) 840 to Arch Gistum Marauder - 720mm Prototype Siege Cannon - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 08:03:26 ] (combat) 886 to Arch Gistum Marauder - 720mm Prototype Siege Cannon - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 08:03:34 ] (combat) 1099 to Arch Gistum Marauder - 720mm Prototype Siege Cannon - Penetrates
[ 2013.03.03 08:03:43 ] (combat) 1055 to Arch Gistum Marauder - 720mm Prototype Siege Cannon - Hits
[ 2013.03.03 08:03:51 ] (combat) 1139 to Arch Gistum Marauder - 720mm Prototype Siege Cannon - Hits


Skills: turret/missile support skills 5, Medium Arty 4, HML spec 4, Battlecruisers 5.

Combat logs mean nothing. Video proof only proof please.

I'll take this answer as your surrender.

Also just saying: used regular ammo on my video. Close to 10minute clear if I used faction, under 10 minutes if I had better missile skills.
Also your numbers are dodgy, missiles should be hitting for 500 or so damage per volley.

Plus, you've shown that you're capable of making videos so therefore now you're not posting any videos makes me suspicious.

Totally different mission, different NPC faction, another resistances. Why are you trying to look stupid?


Your trolling imitation reminds me of Xenuria

drake if you got missile skills

prophecy if you have drone skills

myrmidon if you have tech 2 sentries

projectiles kind of suck for missioning

medium lasers are even worse.

You must be trolling. Macherial and Nightmare pilots would so disagree with you. Hell, I've cleared L4s faster with a Maelstrom than I ever did with a Tengu or drone boat.

You can drop one LSE to a meta 4 and it will require only a 1% implant. Still out tanks the cane. Drop both to meta 4 and you remove the need for cpu implants entirely and STILL out tanks the cane.

However for the cane to be even slightly viable you need the 3% pg implant.

I'm playing around with the DPS graph and the absolute LOWEST dps I can get the drake down to is 322 on your simulation of the rat.

All my previous assumptions about the cane were already using faction ammo. WIth max transversal the cane only out damages between 23km and 36km. With 0 transversal the cane out damages from 0km to 36km.

So basically the drake has almost 30km more effective damage range even under perfect conditions for the cane.

Your comparison link is private so I cannot see anything.

http://i.imgur.com/HcdCygt.jpg

This is 0 transversal for drake vs cane.

http://i.imgur.com/d7NGrMB.jpg

This is for max transversal

The most favourable situation for the hurricane is if it's flying directly at a target that is either sitting still or moving directly for it as well. It out damages the drake to 41km which means drake still wins for another 20km.

Thanks to everyone that took party in the topic, gave me plenty to consider. I'm guessing the absence on hybrid and laser weapons is due to their fixed damage type making them largely undesirable for missioning except against specific factions.

again, try taking into account who you're replying to instead of just spouting what might as well be chinese to this particular pilot.

While you are, indeed, correct; the op cannot pilot a nightmare or machariel and I gave him sound advice on what I estimated to be in his skill range instead of just looking at the reply which you consider to be "wrong" and bash the person who gave it.

You are assuming he cannot pilot a Nightmare of Macherial. No where has he said he can't.

Link is public now; you should have gotten the notification sometime over the weekend.

Look, I have not an earthly clue how you generated the damage graphs you did. My clean, fresh, new install of EFT with the specified fits generates data that looks nothing at all like the graphs you linked. The fact that the Hurricane is doing any vague damage on your max transveral graph is more than a little problematic; it should look absolutely pathetic for the 'cane.

The zero transveral graph should have the Drake at 339 (the Drake pretty much stays put at 339 no matter what since we didn't put a prop mod on the target ship) and the Hurricane starting at 486 at near zero, dropping off starting at 20, and finally dipping below Drake damage at 41. The graph I've been basing my statements on has the target at max velocity tangential to the attackers; in that configuration the Hurricane outdamages the Drake from 11.8 up to 40 with a peak of 437 at 24.3.

At any rate, I'm still glad you like your Drake so much. I hope you're not too disappointed when you realize that the Rattlesnake isn't all it's cracked up to be (and, by the way, that the Machariel is, though it's likely to get the hammer sooner or later).

I'll be the first to admit that missiles have appeals that guns don't, most notably not having to give a damn about tracking and being able to position your ship wherever you'd like so long as you're in range. But the idea that guns somehow don't have commensurate advantages (like being able to mitigate sig radius) is simply silly. The approaches are different, and they're skewed in such a way that an actively, competently flown gunship will almost always win out on applied damage. This is doubly true now that the Drake has effectively lost its damage selection ability.

drake if you got missile skills

prophecy if you have drone skills

myrmidon if you have tech 2 sentries

projectiles kind of suck for missioning

medium lasers are even worse.

I ran every level 3 with a Nomen, no issues.