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Cerberus, is it worth wasting time training assault ship skills to get

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Detshni	Posted - 2005.08.10 06:47:00 - [1] Cerberus, is it worth wasting time training assault ship skills to get? I like the Caracal, but everybody says the Raven is better. But isn't speed also paramount?
Aliksr	Posted - 2005.08.10 07:49:00 - [2] Edited by: Aliksr on 10/08/2005 07:50:32 It's different, and you have to really like missiles. Plus i feel personally that by training skills that make this ship better i've gotten a unique specialisation, something my main is very good at that few other players are, which i find more rewarding than if i had gone for, say, tempest or arma skills. Cerb is nothing like the raven. Especially with a nanofiber. About speed, i havent found a good cerb fitting that uses a MWD. It ruins the tank, and the higher sig radius makes you really fragile. With AB it goes about 520m/s which is enough. There must be a reason why this ship is so talked about on these forums... not sure what it is though
Russo	Posted - 2005.08.10 08:04:00 - [3] the cerberus lacks, by far, the firepower of other HACs like the zealot or diemos...thats the problem. It needs a mini torpedo which will give it that sort of damage, but to balance that out they would need to gimp the speed on it, or range, or ammo capacity. please support my "small diameter torpedo" idea in the features and ideas forum. It is under the missile fix/new bomber thread. Then we can get the cerberus more like a mini raven instead of a long range caracal. Russo - CEO Amarria Auxilia XL pod for an XL personality 'Russo, what exactly do you feed your ego to keep it that big?.'
Drosssk	Posted - 2005.08.10 08:11:00 - [4] A cerberus drops the sheilds on my vagabond in 2 volley if im mwding and 3 w/o. It still goes GOOD damage its just not GREAT damage. Its beauty is its crazy damage from miles and miles away (150km). And it can still easily compete with other hacs 1v1 if you abuse its range. __________________ Enemies strengthen you. Allies weaken.
Russo	Posted - 2005.08.10 08:19:00 - [5] Well I understand the abilities it has, I flew it alot at one time. Had this cool speed set up. Went 3km/sec almost and abused that range like crazy. But back then the missiles were too slow....pft The problem with it is that it cant go into gank mode like a raven can with torpedoes. It cant break most battleship tanks, like a diemos/zealot/vegabond can. It just takes too long to kill anything bigger than a cruiser, if it can kill it at all to begin with. I would call it an assault cruiser....not a Heavy assault cruiser. I really support the introduction of medium sized torpedoes which will balance them out with other HACS by giving them an almost comprable DoT, but at the sacrifice of range and missile velocity. Russo - CEO Amarria Auxilia XL pod for an XL personality 'Russo, what exactly do you feed your ego to keep it that big?.'
Elektra Storm	Posted - 2005.08.10 08:25:00 - [6] I think its flight time bonus with the HAC skill should be replaced by a Damage bonus, problem solved.
DayVV4lkEr	Posted - 2005.08.10 09:48:00 - [7] Edited by: DayVV4lkEr on 10/08/2005 09:48:35 The problem why u can't compare the cerberus to other HACs is simple. The pilots of HACs like deimos or zealot do have high skills in gunnery and the cerberus pilots are still training their skills (guess cerberus can do some really good damage if u learn the new skills). The second point is, that there are no tech II damage mods for the cerberus yet (a zealot can go ganka the cerberus not). The only problems i have with the cerberus (i'm a cerberus pilot myself) might be the small cap and the small CPU (escpecially with the new tech II launchers) but like with every other ship u have to find the best fitting for yourself and i guess u will love that ship. Btw a cerberus can tank quite well (ok ok not against lasers).
Aliksr	Posted - 2005.08.10 10:09:00 - [8] Oveur has stated in a past dev chat that T2 ammo (incl missiles i assume) will not simply be higher damage. They will do different kinds of damage, and/or involve tradeoffs of some kind. Based on that statement, it's not too much of a stretch to assume there will be T2 heavy missiles which trade on the range in return for more damage, possibly of multiple kinds. We've yet to see how well seeded T2 ammo BPOs will be, but if they're tactical items then i imagine they'll be well seeded and fairly cheap. Having said that, a new missile class between heavies and cruises would be awesome too. Detshni, did you know that with full skills (HAC, bombardment and projection V, rank 12 in all so about 55-65 days training) light missiles go 92km and heavy missiles 184km. That's from base ranges of 18 and 36 resp!! There arent many times when doing 220 dps (80dps min vs ceptors) with 12s flight time at 200km (150 with all IVs) is a useful feature (any battleship can do better, really), but it's still fun as hell.
Russo	Posted - 2005.08.10 10:12:00 - [9] Yeah you can see the cerberus hits like a girl compared to the zealot or diemos, but there is nothing cooler than seeing a line of glowy missiles flying 120km to their target :) Russo - CEO Amarria Auxilia XL pod for an XL personality 'Russo, what exactly do you feed your ego to keep it that big?.'
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.08.10 10:26:00 - [10] Edited by: j0sephine on 10/08/2005 10:26:43 "Its beauty is its crazy damage from miles and miles away (150km). And it can still easily compete with other hacs 1v1 if you abuse its range." Should have the description updated... "NPC-operated tackler not included."
Seramis	Posted - 2005.08.10 10:35:00 - [11] An advantage of the Cerberus is the variable attacking range. You can select the range. If your opponent has a close range fitting go to long range and kill him from 100km, if he is in sniper go close and he will not hit you as often. This in my opinion is the most advantage of cerberus.
ELECTR0FREAK	Posted - 2005.08.10 12:01:00 - [12] Edited by: ELECTR0FREAK on 10/08/2005 12:02:03 At 8km/second missile speeds, firing at ranges over 100km, its going to take over 12 seconds for the missiles to impact the target. A full gank setup with good skills can manage around 350 damage per Scourge. 1750 is a nice dose of kinetic damage, but if you take into account the average resistance of kinetic (32.5%) thats 1181 damage. That won't kill a cruiser in one volley. And then its another 7 seconds or so before the next volley hits. I don't know any cruiser that takes 19 seconds to warp out. I'm pretty sure they can be out of there before even the first volley hits. Now versus frigs, theres a similar problem. Say a frig has a signature radius of 40. If it's sitting still (somehow oblivious to the fact that 5 missiles are taking 12 seconds to reach it), it's going to get hit by 5 Scourges for 583 raw damage. Again factoring in average kinetic resistances, they will hit for 394 damage. Still not enough to kill the ship in one volley, and it has 7 seconds before the next set arrives. So, do we see the problem here? A Cerberus can NOT PVP solo at range. Besides, if an Interceptor tackles a target for the Cerberus, by the time the missiles get there, the Interceptor will have probably killed the target on it's own. Sure, Cerb looks great on paper, but you REALLY can't pass judgement on it until you've flown one. It's alright for NPCing, but MOST of us HAC pilots don't train up for Heavy Assault Ships to use on NPCs. -Electrofreak Discoverer of the Missile Damage Formula
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.08.10 14:26:00 - [13] Cerberus has insane range, you can easily achieve 150km range with heavy missiles, question is, does it really need that much range? The damage output of this ship is pretty poor compared to other HAC. Missile skills are new and take time to max out, but I don't think that would balance it out much. I think the Cerberus needs better bonuses, the kinetic only bonus is trash, make it all either a double kinetic dmg bonus (swap flight time bonus) or make it a +5% dmg for all missiles. I really think this ships DMG/Range needs to be balanced out, its all range and no damage, crappy. If CCP would ever add BCUII to the game, that would be damn nice too, T1 BCU are pretty horrible.. ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.08.10 14:39:00 - [14] Cerberus with Heavies is at best, average. Drop down to all assault launchers and use it as a support ship on level 4's, and just watch those frigates disintegrate. That's about the only use I have found for it. And to get that, I am having to use four BCU's in the low slots. ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
GrendelPrime	Posted - 2005.08.10 14:44:00 - [15] Well as its been stated already, the Cerberus has ability to Spam missiles, and insane range for those missiles. That said however, I still think it needs some love. I fly one, and with my skills and current ship kit... my Hvy missile range is 165km (in a ship that can only target to 100km) and Scourge missiles do 257.xxx damage <base damage>, oh and a RoF of 6.72sec using Arb Hvy launchers. Sounds cool... but really it falls way behind in DoT compared to other HAC's. So IMO, it either needs a 6th Launcher slot, or the range bonus needs to be swapped for another damage bonus\ Explosion radius bonus\Sig radius bonus\etc.... Hell while I'm at it, how about giving it a 6th launcher slot, and changing the range<flight time> bonus. I mean, all the other races HAC's got Hi-slot increases compared to their T1 counterparts, but the Caldari ones have the exact same hi-slot layout. "Though you may die, do not give up your honor" -- Miyamoto Musashi
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2005.08.10 14:55:00 - [16] We need missile launcher implants too like gunnery gets. :\| ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
DarK	Posted - 2005.08.10 15:07:00 - [17] /whinge Just give me a medium sized short range/high damage missile type and launcher seeing as cruisers don't have one like BS and frigs do. Have heavies as the cruise missile equivelant. Cerb gets to choose from 2 launcher types whereas turret ships have like 6 of the same type. When you only have 5 launcher hardpoints and nothing else there isn't alot of flexibility. Also, the flighttime bonus needs to go, as mentioned before. If they did introduce a short range medium missile then another velocity bonus instead of the flight time wouldn't be too bad if they wanted to preserve the high range of heavies. I'd cream my pants if they did this:\
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.08.10 15:19:00 - [18] Edited by: j0sephine on 10/08/2005 15:20:20 "Just give me a medium sized short range/high damage missile type and launcher seeing as cruisers don't have one like BS and frigs do. Have heavies as the cruise missile equivelant." Or make a low slot module and let people configure ship as they see fit... "increases missile payload at the cost of fuel amount" * reduces flight time by 75% * increases damage by 20% with one of these installed you'd then have a mid-range ship (~45 km max range on heavies) and with 2 of them -- short range (below 10 km) ... such module would add friggin' 5% or so more to damage than ballistic control I does, and actually less than tech.2 ballistic control... so hardly overpowering.
Grey Area	Posted - 2005.08.10 15:23:00 - [19] Originally by: j0sephine Edited by: j0sephine on 10/08/2005 15:20:20 "Just give me a medium sized short range/high damage missile type and launcher seeing as cruisers don't have one like BS and frigs do. Have heavies as the cruise missile equivelant." Or make a low slot module and let people configure ship as they see fit... "increases missile payload at the cost of fuel amount" * reduces flight time by 75% * increases damage by 20% with one of these installed you'd then have a mid-range ship (~45 km max range on heavies) and with 2 of them -- short range (below 10 km) ... such module would add friggin' 5% or so more to damage than ballistic control I does, and actually less than tech.2 ballistic control... so hardly overpowering. "Explosive Fuel Injector I" WTB. Put me down for twenty. ========================================= * I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. * =========================================
Istvaan Shogaatsu	Posted - 2005.08.10 15:27:00 - [20] Originally by: Russo I really support the introduction of medium sized torpedoes which will balance them out with other HACS by giving them an almost comprable DoT, but at the sacrifice of range and missile velocity. Sounds like a good idea. While we're on it, WTB: cruiser sized Tachyon Beam Laser.
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.08.10 15:31:00 - [21] Originally by: Istvaan Shogaatsu Originally by: Russo I really support the introduction of medium sized torpedoes which will balance them out with other HACS by giving them an almost comprable DoT, but at the sacrifice of range and missile velocity. Sounds like a good idea. While we're on it, WTB: cruiser sized Tachyon Beam Laser. I'd like 1400s on my muninn, might actually make it not worthless. And I thought cerbs were completely terrible until I fought p1rate dave's (aka dave tel... whatever his main's name is) and a harpy yesterday. He was hitting my vaga's shields w/ explosive for about 160 per missile, aka 800/volley, from 35km away. I abed to 20km and in that time he had me in 1/2 armor (this was on a shield tanked vaga). I got out of range and warped out. And the harpy was hitting me for crap damage so it didnt really factor in. I Die A lot in this vid
Russo	Posted - 2005.08.10 15:32:00 - [22] You fly a zealot, which is a mini gankgeddon pretty much. So why shouldnt the cerberus be able to act like a mini raven, with its own version of torps for close range? There is no reason why not. Russo - CEO Amarria Auxilia XL pod for an XL personality 'Russo, what exactly do you feed your ego to keep it that big?.'
Motec	Posted - 2005.08.10 15:33:00 - [23] The only thing that would get me to fly a missleboat is switching missle type fast, comparable to lasers. Then the cerberus might actually look itimidating on the battlefeild.
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.08.10 15:36:00 - [24] "And I thought cerbs were completely terrible until I fought p1rate dave's (aka dave tel... whatever his main's name is) and a harpy yesterday. He was hitting my vaga's shields w/ explosive for about 160 per missile, aka 800/volley, from 35km away. I abed to 20km and in that time he had me in 1/2 armor (this was on a shield tanked vaga). I got out of range and warped out. And the harpy was hitting me for crap damage so it didnt really factor in." 800 per volley translates into ~115 dps and medium shield booster cuts 30+ hp from that... suspect that Harpy was actually doing far more work you're giving her credit for... -.o
Russo	Posted - 2005.08.10 15:40:00 - [25] Ok it seems like people think I want normal torpedos for the cerberus. I was suggesting a smaller torpedo that does less damage. For an analogy A mini torpedo is to a heavy missile as A torpedo is to a cruise missile If you really think thats a terrible idea, then I dont think I will be able to change your mind, but as someone who has flown the cerberus, I know that unless your enemy chooses to fly through your hail of missiles from long range and get into scramble range, already damaged from the trip to get to you....he will normally just fly off and without a tackler wingman you dont get the kill. Cerberus needs some punch so it can get close and force a battle it can win. ATM it lacks the firepower to break good tanks or defeat HACs (because it cant hold them in place) Russo - CEO Amarria Auxilia XL pod for an XL personality 'Russo, what exactly do you feed your ego to keep it that big?.'
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.08.10 17:10:00 - [26] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 10/08/2005 17:14:37 Originally by: Russo You fly a zealot, which is a mini gankgeddon pretty much. So why shouldnt the cerberus be able to act like a mini raven, with its own version of torps for close range? There is no reason why not. I dont know if you are talking to me, but I don't fly a zealot. I fly a vagabond. And I dont see how a zealot fitting medium guns is different from a cerberus fitting "medium" missiles, besides the fact that the cerb has no t2 damage mods. Though personally I think there should be a mini torpedo but I and others have been saying that for a long time so its not gonna happen. Also it would be very difficult to balance, as it should only do good damage to BC+, but then everyone will whine about how their mini torps do bad damage to HACs. Originally by: j0sephine "And I thought cerbs were completely terrible until I fought p1rate dave's (aka dave tel... whatever his main's name is) and a harpy yesterday. He was hitting my vaga's shields w/ explosive for about 160 per missile, aka 800/volley, from 35km away. I abed to 20km and in that time he had me in 1/2 armor (this was on a shield tanked vaga). I got out of range and warped out. And the harpy was hitting me for crap damage so it didnt really factor in." 800 per volley translates into ~115 dps and medium shield booster cuts 30+ hp from that... suspect that Harpy was actually doing far more work you're giving her credit for... -.o cough large c56l cough . All I know is they broke my tank w/ is like 4.5k shields w/ 40% lowest resist and a large c5l I Die A lot in this vid
j0sephine	Posted - 2005.08.10 17:36:00 - [27] "cough large c56l cough . All I know is they broke my tank w/ is like 4.5k shields w/ 40% lowest resist and a large c5l " :o i ran the numbers out of curiosity and it turns out damn funny... with maxed skills and tech.2 gear if Cerberus doesn't have the option of using kinetic missiles against the Vagabond's shield, with no damage mods she can do ~67 dps with heavy missiles... while Harpy with tech.2 125 mm rails and light missile launcher against the same target will do about.. wait for it... 53 ^,^ (yup, that's maybe 25% difference in damage) even though Harpy won't hit you for more than 30 hp per shot there... she'll do that often -.^ (with kinetic missiles Cerberus goes up to ~100 dps against Vagabond shield... still, Harpy does half of that on her own. Mean lil' thing...
DayVV4lkEr	Posted - 2005.08.10 18:02:00 - [28] Frigate Class: Close Range Weapon = Rocket Long Range Weapon = Light Missile Cruiser Class: Close Range Weapon = Light Missile Long Range Weapon = Heavy Missile Battleship Class: Close Range Weapon = Torpedos Long Range Weapon = Cruise Missile What everyone can see is that the cruiser-class close ranged weapon is the frigate-class long range weapon. The close range weapons for BS and frigates deal more damage then the long range weapons, but they can't travel that far. A jammed close-range BS or frigate can't defend . The cruiser can. All the new missile skills apply for long and close range weapons at the cruiser-class. frigates and BS only use ALL new missile skills with the long range versions. to sum it up: guess something is wrong/missing there. What we need is a new "missile" for assault launchers (and only assault launchers can fit them). I know that isn't the perfect solution....
Rexthor Hammerfists	Posted - 2005.08.10 18:33:00 - [29] to the threadstarter: no. the cerb has its litle range advancement, but that such a limited use that its alot more fun to fly other hacs. litle hint: ravens are with t1 gear cheaper but u still can kill moore and use "other" setups. cruise missiles are better against small targets then heavies, too.
xenorx	Posted - 2005.08.10 20:47:00 - [30] Quote: No cruiser currently in existence can match the superiority of the CerberusÆs onboard missile system. With a well-trained pilot jacked in, this fanged horror is capable of unleashing a hail of missiles to send even the most seasoned armor tankers running for cover. IMO this is the most misleading ship discription that CCP ever put on a ship. It should read more like this... No cruiser currently in existence can match the superiority of the CerberusÆs onboard missile system. With a well-trained pilot jacked in, this toothless horror is capable of unleashing a hail of missiles to send even the most seasoned armor tankers into hystarical laughter. Perhaps back in the day when you could fit cruise and torps into heavy launchers the first statement would have been true. As it is now even with the new skills trained it fails to deliver. I vote for a bonus change. Drop the 10% flight time bonus for a 10% damage bonus to ALL missles. Then it would have a chance to live up to its description and be on par with the other HAC's.

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