Hi,

I never flew a carrier yet and I was wondering how much use they could have in small gang PvP - as real combat ship with a support role in addition (or vice versa). Let's say a gang of 10-15 pilots. I know they're logistic ships mainly and nice to get stuff transported also. But for now, let's consider them (ISK aside) just as a BS with a lot of EHP and awesome utility. I also know they are blob magnets and all...but howsoever, after insurance a pure t2 fit carrier isn't much more expensive compared to T3s or pirate BSs.

A non-triage carrier fitted with 3 drone damage mods is able to deal BS like damage with sentries and hvy drones alone. Thanatos does 1250 DPS with fighters. Counting in tons of light and medium drones they offer some nice flexibility.

I see some issues when using them in combat:

- sitting ducks, no GTFO ability
- bad lock time without triage
- moveable with cyno only, which is not that subtle ^^

But is there more which speaks against them in small scale PvP? Is the much increased utility compared to an ordinary BS (maintenance bay, XL RR) worth using them in actual front line combat?

Thanks for any hint.

I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.

If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try.
Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support.

This is proly a dumb question but I've never been in a gang with a carrier. Can they assign their drones to another member then go triage?

I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.

If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try.
Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support.

I often wonder why people will be happy to take a faction fit T3 into battle and not a t2 fit carrier. The carrier would be cheaper.

If I did have the isk (standard eve T&C's apply... if you can't afford to replace it don't fly it) to use either I am sure I would try a sentry carrier... warp in at rep range, deploy sentries and rep fleet and pew at the same time.. you should also be far enough away to drop anything that burns to you, 2 x 500w neuts could help with this.. if things look hairy.. warp away.... or at least try.
Can drop another carrier or 2 behind the first for support.

you are clueless.

Yes it can carry tons of drones but if just a few people web and paint them they're dead in seconds

errr explain how???

errr explain how???

IAgain: I try to see carriers as oversized drone battleships. Apart from "you'll get blobbed'...is this really so wrong? If so, why?

The same reason you don't fly a drone bs the same way you fly a drone frigate, they're completely different ships. I've noticed in your theory crafting on how to counter tackles, dps, etc, you seem to assume your carrier will be the biggest fish on the field without considering what to do when the inevitable first cyno appears. A lone moros will make the carrier you're describing dead in well under 45 seconds, including lock time.

Thx for your replies. But most of them only commented the "you'll get ganked" issue.

I was on sisi a few months back, refit my moros from the tracking fit it had been using to just a straight lets-see-how-much-dps-I-can-churn-out fit.

This was the fit.

While not at all practical, it goes to show just how much DPS a dread can field( and holy **** was it fun to fly), and how easily dreads can (and will, because cap ships are a beacon for pirates) absolutely wreck your carrier time and time again. The tracking dread (which was armor tanked) version killed carriers quite well also, and could take on a carrier or 2 without actually hitting armor before they died (and this was a fit designed to blap smaller ships) so yeah, a combat carrier is going to get wrecked very, very quickly.

The same reason you don't fly a drone bs the same way you fly a drone frigate, they're completely different ships. I've noticed in your theory crafting on how to counter tackles, dps, etc, you seem to assume your carrier will be the biggest fish on the field without considering what to do when the inevitable first cyno appears. A lone moros will make the carrier you're describing dead in well under 45 seconds, including lock time.

-edit- Cambarus beat me to it, but yes, even with grid load and lock time, a well skilled lone moros can handily kill an agressed Thanny before it has time to deagress and dock.

OK give it a try and then get back to us.

You've clearly never met me, solo vindicators will catch on eventually and then I'll be seen as a visionary!

But yeah, this thread wasn't about who can throw away the most money in the name having a fun time, the Op wanted advice on the realities of dropping a solo non triage combat carrier for non exploding out of boredom reasons. The R&K vids are a great example of non traige carriers doing some great stuff, emphasis on the plural.



-edit- Cleaned up the qutoe blob

Hi,

I never flew a carrier yet and I was wondering how much use they could have in small gang PvP - as real combat ship with a support role in addition (or vice versa). Let's say a gang of 10-15 pilots. I know they're logistic ships mainly and nice to get stuff transported also. But for now, let's consider them (ISK aside) just as a BS with a lot of EHP and awesome utility. I also know they are blob magnets and all...but howsoever, after insurance a pure t2 fit carrier isn't much more expensive compared to T3s or pirate BSs.

A non-triage carrier fitted with 3 drone damage mods is able to deal BS like damage with sentries and hvy drones alone. Thanatos does 1250 DPS with fighters. Counting in tons of light and medium drones they offer some nice flexibility.

I see some issues when using them in combat:

- sitting ducks, no GTFO ability
- bad lock time without triage
- moveable with cyno only, which is not that subtle ^^

But is there more which speaks against them in small scale PvP? Is the much increased utility compared to an ordinary BS (maintenance bay, XL RR) worth using them in actual front line combat?

Thanks for any hint.

Hi,

I never flew a carrier yet and I was wondering how much use they could have in small gang PvP - as real combat ship with a support role in addition (or vice versa). Let's say a gang of 10-15 pilots. I know they're logistic ships mainly and nice to get stuff transported also. But for now, let's consider them (ISK aside) just as a BS with a lot of EHP and awesome utility. I also know they are blob magnets and all...but howsoever, after insurance a pure t2 fit carrier isn't much more expensive compared to T3s or pirate BSs.

A non-triage carrier fitted with 3 drone damage mods is able to deal BS like damage with sentries and hvy drones alone. Thanatos does 1250 DPS with fighters. Counting in tons of light and medium drones they offer some nice flexibility.

I see some issues when using them in combat:

- sitting ducks, no GTFO ability
- bad lock time without triage
- moveable with cyno only, which is not that subtle ^^

But is there more which speaks against them in small scale PvP? Is the much increased utility compared to an ordinary BS (maintenance bay, XL RR) worth using them in actual front line combat?

Thanks for any hint.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=18326610 (EDIT> I am aware he was a moron and mining, but just wanted to stress that carriers die easy once cought.)

Hi,

I never flew a carrier yet and I was wondering how much use they could have in small gang PvP - as real combat ship with a support role in addition (or vice versa). Let's say a gang of 10-15 pilots. I know they're logistic ships mainly and nice to get stuff transported also. But for now, let's consider them (ISK aside) just as a BS with a lot of EHP and awesome utility. I also know they are blob magnets and all...but howsoever, after insurance a pure t2 fit carrier isn't much more expensive compared to T3s or pirate BSs.

A non-triage carrier fitted with 3 drone damage mods is able to deal BS like damage with sentries and hvy drones alone. Thanatos does 1250 DPS with fighters. Counting in tons of light and medium drones they offer some nice flexibility.

I see some issues when using them in combat:

- sitting ducks, no GTFO ability
- bad lock time without triage
- moveable with cyno only, which is not that subtle ^^

But is there more which speaks against them in small scale PvP? Is the much increased utility compared to an ordinary BS (maintenance bay, XL RR) worth using them in actual front line combat?

Thanks for any hint.

Jesus Christ.... is THIS what is considered small gang nowadays? Hot drops only happen when you are losing ;D

A small gang is generally denoted by the amount of pilots on the field, not the size of ships they use.

In fact, and to answer Deuno, i would say that to a certain degree that's how the "Slowcat" was born. A couple of years ago during the height of the mineral crash a trend emerged, among some of the wealthier small-gang groups, where the use of Capitals in their traditional roles resurfaced: Carriers and Dreads began to be looked upon as throw-away ships to spark advantages in otherwise expensive fights (Tech III, Faction BS etc.) as well as both under- and against the Supercapital profileration of the time. To snag kills under the noses of the larger Supercapital fleets.

If you think about it, much of it is outlined in RnK's movies where even in the first renowned one you can see arguments made for letting a Triage save a BS-fleet to cut losses. Other groups began treating Dreads similarily even before their buffs. Allowing a smaller group to enter into the higher-stake gameplay of Super fishing while commiting a couple of sieged Dreads (risking 5b on the outlook of killing 20b+). They'd try to one-cycle a tackled Super (or turn a Triage-stalemate) before help could arrive and then break off. When a Super fleet descended upon them they just cut their losses and exfiltrated, leaving or scuttling what could not be saved. It should be kept in mind that a Carrier then cost something like 600-700m and a Dread not much more as they were widely regarded as terrible ships by the majority.

This later culminated in the traditional Battleship role being more and more obscured. Certain Battleships remained as necessary components (the Triage-minded groups like RnK favoured Bhaalgorns, and the Dread-minded groups like RnK's neighbours in HORN favoured Vindicators), but once the Dreads and "Pantheons" (or Garchons, Rarchons or whatever terminology you prefer) became common sights it started to dawn on the established groups that the role of the traditional Battleship in such fights: providing some support, some primary damage and some anti-support damage; was largely obscured and better outsourced to specialized ships. Sentry-Carriers started to appear as Pantheon-hybrids with anti-support function: shooting out Bubblers (and other opportunistic support) across the entire grid while Trackdreads pounded down the primaries.

These proto-Slowcat Sentry-Carriers did just what Deuno asked about: they tracked better than BS, did more damage, tanked better, could refit off each other or provide the Dreads with refits and could adapt to shoot further; all while they retained their role of Remote-reparing the sparse and heavily maximized, pre-locked, sub-capital support brought to the grid (100mn, Slaved, Tech III sporting a tank more similar to a Carrier than a sub-cap or fully faction-fit and Slaved Vindicators or Bhaalgorns, depending on disposition). They didn't need Triage to lock those 500k+ tank sub-capitals at that scale, since numbers were small and the brunt of damage came from equally large ships.

When those groups clashed even a 10-15 man gang could look something like: Vindi / Bhaal, LR Proteus, LR Loki, Moros and Archons. Then some possible reserve of throw-away Triage and Supers for escalation. Perhaps some cloaky support if it was in nullsec (bombers to clear fighter-bombers, etc.) and the odd HIC bridged in.

Another thing that should be kept in mind is that alot of the examples i refer to took place in Lowsec and NPC null around static positions like POS or Stations where a Carrier group could just slowboat into shields or dock in the station. Even on gates those throw-away Capitals could just be left behind and have the even more expensive sub-caps just filter out.