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MrPops
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Posted - 2003.07.22 09:18:00 -
[1]
Do you guys need a basic course in business economics and market pricing?
Please accurately determine the real cost of producing your ships.
Mineral cost: this can vary depending on skill and research done on BP
Manufacturing costs: this includes slot rentals and time of production.
Your time and effort in bringing the finished product.
Delivery or not?
Now add all that up and bash your ship against your head. Now why are you selling your ships at cost? Why? So you mean to tell me you work for free for the public? Do you think you are doing people a favor when you sell at cost or under?
Sellers are completely devaluating items just because they want to get rid of the item fast and make a quick buck.
I don't understand people selling Thoraxes for less than 5 million. You are basically giving them away for free or you don't seem to care about profit margings and the work you need to invest in order to produce them. I don't see how investing over 70 million for an original BP and then selling each ship for less than a million profit makes any sense. The point of investing is to make your money back plus more in return. At this rate you would have to sell over 70 ships in order to get back your initial investment.
It's great to have multiple sellers and all the competition and pricewars going on. But ask yourself how low can you go? How low is low?
If you really value your time and effort you need to reevaluate the current situation. You decide.
"The human species suffers from a dimensional limitation. They are not able to understand that matter and mind are just one aspect of something more fundamental. We must strive to expand our perspective so we can see what our true reality is."
Deep toughts by Mr.Pops, while consuming large quantities of Blue Pill and staring at the EVE gate in Genesis.
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Krashtest
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Posted - 2003.07.22 11:10:00 -
[2]
Well , if a corp sells battleships and sells cruisers , it is easy. The battleships are going to destroy a bunch of cruisers , which the corp then sells.
When you are looking at production costs, the corp selling them cheap has a character with lvl 5 production efficiency as well as a heavily mineral researched bp. They are producing the ships for much less than you think, and they are more importantly building a solid customer base. A player who gets a good deal on a cruiser is more likely to buy another cruiser if they run into a blockaded system if. Also, if they are treated fairly , when they upgrade to the next class of ship, they will probably go with the same corp to purchase.
A corp that makes only 1 mil per cruiser, but sells 10 of them is farther ahead than the corp that sells only 4 cruisers but mark them up to make 2 mil profit. Mining of the minerals just takes a little time, much less if you have a solid group with good teamwork.
Your Mega Afocal Pulse Maser I perfectly strikes Asteroid (Veldspar) [R0ME], wrecking for 798.3 damage.
Your 425mm Railgun I perfectly strikes Guardian Captain, wrecking for 685.9 damage.
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Kalast Raven
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Posted - 2003.07.22 12:04:00 -
[3]
Its always worth a good laugh to buy a ship, recycle it, and sell the minerals for more than you paid for it.
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K. Raven
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Jojin
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Posted - 2003.07.22 14:08:00 -
[4]
The core of your post seems to only make a point there is the possibility to make additional profit.
If a player is happy making low profit margins or even working for free, why should they be denied or told it is wrong to take such an option. There is more fun to be had in EVE than just earning ISK.
While the actions of these people having their type of fun may interfere with others achieving their goals for profit, it doesnĘt make it wrong. In fact all it does it make the whole process more challenging.
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MrPops
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Posted - 2003.07.22 14:34:00 -
[5]
Jojin, there is nothing wrong in selecting the way you choose to play. But when a corporation or individual decides to sell a hot ticket item at cost, which is basically almost free, just because they don't care about profits or wish to be rewarded for their effort because the fun is not making money but the "process" is, they in turn ruin the market for those who do care to be rewarded for their work and *want* to make a decent profit. They have to lower the prices to a ridiculous level in order to compete because consumers expect a much lower average due to the "non-profit" individual or corp.
Another thing is that skills and research can only lower mineral requirements so much. A Thorax can't be produced for the same level a Stabber can be no matter how much skill or research you do on the BP. You can't produce a Thorax at 3 mill in minerals and then turn around and sell for 5 million or less.
One thing is having healthy competition to level overinflated prices. This may give consumers a fair choice but the situation in EVE is not a healthy one. It only benefits the consumer since they are getting a great bargain but producers are getting shafted. So what's next? making 1 million profit on battleships? might as well keep to mining scordite.
"The human species suffers from a dimensional limitation. They are not able to understand that matter and mind are just one aspect of something more fundamental. We must strive to expand our perspective so we can see what our true reality is."
Deep toughts by Mr.Pops, while consuming large quantities of Blue Pill and staring at the EVE gate in Genesis.
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The Wretch
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Posted - 2003.07.22 16:01:00 -
[6]
Free market - get over it. Look like the competition is eating up some folks  .
The Wretch
Cyberdyne Systems CEO
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MrPops
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Posted - 2003.07.22 16:38:00 -
[7]
Not really, my corporation is not dedicated to producing and selling in the free market. We actually value our time and effort and refuse to sell at or below cost. We post our items on the EVE market for a decent price and if we have to wait a week to sell 1 ship, let it be so.
We already enjoyed the profit of selling manufactured ships at the start of the game. Right now the market for frigates and cruisers in crap. The only market that the seller is still making a considerable profit is the battleship market.
As soon as every ******* has a BP, we will see the same situation with people selling battlehips at or below cost. This will be completely ridiculous considering the work that goes into mining all the minerals for a large BS.
"The human species suffers from a dimensional limitation. They are not able to understand that matter and mind are just one aspect of something more fundamental. We must strive to expand our perspective so we can see what our true reality is."
Deep toughts by Mr.Pops, while consuming large quantities of Blue Pill and staring at the EVE gate in Genesis.
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orrin
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Posted - 2003.07.22 16:38:00 -
[8]
It is clear to me that some of the producer's complaining about low prices need to take Econ 101 again.
What is a low price? Is the right cost of minerals the NPC price? What is the right price to pay for the transportation costs implicit in moving minerals to factory? How do you amortize the blue print cost? What is the isk value of an hour of your time?
Anyone who produces or buys large quantities of minerals knows that the NPC price is not the market price. In fact, there are plenty of people who are primarily miners who use selling ships as a way just to get the NPC value of the minerals. They are not in the ship building business per se, rather they sell minerals in a different form. For them the cost of the blueprint is the price that must be paid in order to sell minerals at the NPC market price. In addition, selling blue print copies is the main way to recover your orginal BP cost.
Finally, to sell minerals at the NPC market price directly requires the person to distribute those minerals widely to access the NPC demand and to wait for that demand (refreshed daily) to work its way through all the sell orders. The transportation costs associated with this process are probably greater then the transportion cost of moving those same minerals to a factory.
The long and the short end of this post is that ship building is inevitably going to see its profit margins pushed down to barely recovering the NPC price of the minerals. And the profit to the producer is the difference between the real cost of minerals and the NPC price of minerals. A well researched BP and production efficiency will add to this. Anything additional to this is gravy. A stabber selling at NPC mineral price plus 1 million isk is not a low price but a great price. In two months you may be lucky to get more then just the NPC mineral price.
Those producers looking for a greater profit better make sure they can restrict supply (i.e. have the only blueprint of a tech 2 cruiser) otherwise outsized profits will only be available during the initial part of a products introduction to the EVE universe. People will pay a premium to be the first owner of cruiser, they will not pay much of one to be the two hundred and twelfth owner of that same cruiser.
Orrin
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MrPops
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Posted - 2003.07.22 16:42:00 -
[9]
Orrin making a profit of 1 million is great, could be better but it's great still. What I'm talking about is people who make 0 profit or negative profit. These people who for some reason can work like this, drive prices and averages prematurely lower compared to what it should be.
"The human species suffers from a dimensional limitation. They are not able to understand that matter and mind are just one aspect of something more fundamental. We must strive to expand our perspective so we can see what our true reality is."
Deep toughts by Mr.Pops, while consuming large quantities of Blue Pill and staring at the EVE gate in Genesis.
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Muaddid
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Posted - 2003.07.22 16:56:00 -
[10]
instead of whining about it, arm yourself and decalre war on them till they stop selling lower than you :P
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
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MrPops
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Posted - 2003.07.22 17:11:00 -
[11]
Right now going to war with a corporation won't really do much damage. The only thing anyone can do is make them aware of the situation and hope they will change. Otherwise there is nothing anyone can do.
"The human species suffers from a dimensional limitation. They are not able to understand that matter and mind are just one aspect of something more fundamental. We must strive to expand our perspective so we can see what our true reality is."
Deep toughts by Mr.Pops, while consuming large quantities of Blue Pill and staring at the EVE gate in Genesis.
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Magallen
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Posted - 2003.07.22 18:46:00 -
[12]
There is nothing that can be done about this. This is just a game and producing some thing in a game is effortless, or at least it should be or lese it won't be fun.
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Kelakh Cynbal
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Posted - 2004.02.07 07:11:00 -
[13]
If your selling battleships that means you have easy access to heavy equipment. Why not fluster your competetion and and continously harass thier shipping and mining productions. I am sure if you "lost" a battle ship to the right people there could be more effictive ways than out right war to solve this problem. Especially if there is much lawlessness in eve as they all say.A lil war here an is healthy for society is it not? After all we would be part of the gallante empire with out such a means |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.02.07 09:54:00 -
[14]
 Quote:
Not really, my corporation is not dedicated to producing and selling in the free market. We actually value our time and effort and refuse to sell at or below cost. We post our items on the EVE market for a decent price and if we have to wait a week to sell 1 ship, let it be so.
Okay, so you chose your path and you're happy with it. Why are you complaining?
Not everyone who is in shipbuilding, is in it to make large quantities of money. If you can sell despite them, quit whining. If you can't sell because of them, quit whining, and do something constructive to remove them. Buy up all their ships and re-sell at your prices, or undercut them for long enough that they quit and go elsewhere, or find a different region in which to sell your stuff, or pay mOo to declare war on their corp and ruin them ... there's ways and means. You know what the problem is, go solve it.
Either way, quit whining. 
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Xraal I
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Posted - 2004.02.07 10:47:00 -
[15]
The forces of the free market works in very strange ways sometimes.
Personally I would never build and sell something that was not more profitable to sell than the minerals in it.
The Cruiser market has gone below all sane price levels. I do not care much about it though, I just buy the cruisers we need, cheaper than we could possibly ever build them.
And yes, I am using a PE 5 producer and well researched BPC's. The claim posted above that the producers are "able" to produce at those low prices are ridiculous. I would be able to do it aswell, only then I would have lost time and profit compared to just selling the minerals at going market rates.
And yes, many producers probably Would find a course in economics helpful..
Something to do about it? - Nah, not really.. just take advantage of the situation and play your own cards wisely. Someone in these forums use "Idiots make us rich" in their signature. Its sad but true.
CEO - Clan Chief - Diplomat - Trader |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.02.07 13:02:00 -
[16]
Quote:
And yes, many producers probably Would find a course in economics helpful...
Some producers have other things besides economics to take into consideration. You evidently don't; but what makes you think their motives are the same as yours?
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"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2004.02.07 13:28:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Quote:
And yes, many producers probably Would find a course in economics helpful...
Some producers have other things besides economics to take into consideration. You evidently don't; but what makes you think their motives are the same as yours?
It seems you do know what their motives are, so please inform all of us. If not: Shut up.
If you go into the builder buisness then those bp's don't come for free, if you need minerals you cannot mine yourself then you need money for those.
If you _can_ mine these minerals yourself, it is very stupid to sell at a lower rate than you can get them for. Unless your selling to a friend for reduced costs offcourse, but most people who build ship and actually sell something don't sell their items to friends on the market.
So why underrate your own profit, why sell for less than you can archieve with even LESS effort than building the ship and selling the minerals in it for 10% less than you could have gotten if you sold the minerals directly to a buyer?
It doesn't make sense, and if you claim it does then your full of it. People in the past claimed that they don't gain anything IRL over it so it should be free, newsflash to mister stupids. Your PAYING 12,5$ a month to WASTE your time by LOSING money on your OWN intention, if only we had morons like these people IRL. I would hire them to do my job for 1000$ and make double of it...
Anyone of these people want to do that? No? What is Eve diffrent? Why RUIN a player driven economy when you don't do that IRL? Sure its a game, but that doesn't mean you can't use your brain for atleast 1 second.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2004.02.07 13:31:00 -
[18]
PS: That tech2 is not available to all is the fault of these people, who ruined a market and CCP had to fix it by giving it out to agents.
Only negative point of this is, that if a player is fed up with the game one bp is lost that cannot be bought back and thus items that are ingame are lost.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
Falkrum
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Posted - 2004.02.07 14:47:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Falkrum on 07/02/2004 14:48:39
Edited by: Falkrum on 07/02/2004 14:47:46
Quote:
Do you guys need a basic course in business economics and market pricing?
Please accurately determine the real cost of producing your ships.
Mineral cost: this can vary depending on skill and research done on BP
Manufacturing costs: this includes slot rentals and time of production.
Your time and effort in bringing the finished product.
Delivery or not?
Now add all that up and bash your ship against your head. Now why are you selling your ships at cost? Why? So you mean to tell me you work for free for the public? Do you think you are doing people a favor when you sell at cost or under?
Sellers are completely devaluating items just because they want to get rid of the item fast and make a quick buck.
I don't understand people selling Thoraxes for less than 5 million. You are basically giving them away for free or you don't seem to care about profit margings and the work you need to invest in order to produce them. I don't see how investing over 70 million for an original BP and then selling each ship for less than a million profit makes any sense. The point of investing is to make your money back plus more in return. At this rate you would have to sell over 70 ships in order to get back your initial investment.
It's great to have multiple sellers and all the competition and pricewars going on. But ask yourself how low can you go? How low is low?
If you really value your time and effort you need to reevaluate the current situation. You decide.
Cruiser business is crap eh? That's funny considering I have not seen a Rupture on the market equal to or less than my 100% premium insurance in the last 3 weeks.
I have to make my own now or pay 7.4+ from players.. someone is making money somewhere obviously
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DREAMWORKS
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Posted - 2004.02.07 19:25:00 -
[20]
Quote:
Edited by: Falkrum on 07/02/2004 14:48:39
Edited by: Falkrum on 07/02/2004 14:47:46
Quote:
Do you guys need a basic course in business economics and market pricing?
Please accurately determine the real cost of producing your ships.
Mineral cost: this can vary depending on skill and research done on BP
Manufacturing costs: this includes slot rentals and time of production.
Your time and effort in bringing the finished product.
Delivery or not?
Now add all that up and bash your ship against your head. Now why are you selling your ships at cost? Why? So you mean to tell me you work for free for the public? Do you think you are doing people a favor when you sell at cost or under?
Sellers are completely devaluating items just because they want to get rid of the item fast and make a quick buck.
I don't understand people selling Thoraxes for less than 5 million. You are basically giving them away for free or you don't seem to care about profit margings and the work you need to invest in order to produce them. I don't see how investing over 70 million for an original BP and then selling each ship for less than a million profit makes any sense. The point of investing is to make your money back plus more in return. At this rate you would have to sell over 70 ships in order to get back your initial investment.
It's great to have multiple sellers and all the competition and pricewars going on. But ask yourself how low can you go? How low is low?
If you really value your time and effort you need to reevaluate the current situation. You decide.
Cruiser business is crap eh? That's funny considering I have not seen a Rupture on the market equal to or less than my 100% premium insurance in the last 3 weeks.
I have to make my own now or pay 7.4+ from players.. someone is making money somewhere obviously
How about 2 alliance regions (0.0 space) who are not able to mine anymore, thus is the income of zydrine and mega lower. 3.5k a zydrine isn't something you can call cheap, and with the current market economy i don't think thats artificial held up high with the attitude of some people.
__________________________
http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html |
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Zyrla Bladestorm
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Posted - 2004.02.07 19:55:00 -
[21]
for the love of arkanor! this was a 7 month dead thread resting in peace .. why did you people dig it up instead of leaving it to its rest ?
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Apologys for any rambling that may have just occurred.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.02.07 20:14:00 -
[22]
Quote:
It seems you do know what their motives are, so please inform all of us. If not: Shut up.
I know what MINE are. I don't presume to speak for anyone else; I'm just pointing out the possibility.
Quote:
So why underrate your own profit, why sell for less than you can archieve with even LESS effort than building the ship and selling the minerals in it for 10% less than you could have gotten if you sold the minerals directly to a buyer?
I'm not going to explain to you why I do what I do; I don't have to. Go figure out for yourself, if you want to know. Meanwhile, I'll sell stuff at the price I want to, whether it annoys you or not.
I know exactly what price I need to sell at in order to turn a profit. I know what price I need to sell at in order to achieve my objectives. They are NOT necessarily the same thing.
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"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2004.02.07 20:16:00 -
[23]
Quote:
for the love of arkanor! this was a 7 month dead thread resting in peace .. why did you people dig it up instead of leaving it to its rest ?
My bad ... I didn't notice that.
I'll be quiet now.
_______
"Soon" is an ancient Icelandic word meaning "some time before the next Ice Age." |
Klio
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Posted - 2004.02.07 20:58:00 -
[24]
Lets not bump old threads, ok? :)
 EVE Forum Rules - Contact the Moderator Team |
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