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Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Unclaimed. 1458	Posted - 2013.03.13 20:11:00 - [61] - Quote Machiavelli Interface wrote: Thank you for the good replys, they are appreciated. What is the point of being afk and cloaked? Snipping at that point to spare a wall of needless text. What is the point of being AFK and anything? You are not actively playing the game as far as making any effort, you can simply observe events and if you do see something, you have the option to react to it. Keeping firmly in mind, the player needs to be present in order to make such an observation. It is my understanding that the observant players are the ones who are feared, so let's keep it simple like that. You could claim this is not playing the game, due to a lack of effort involved. After all, you are apparently doing nothing more than watching your screen, possibly in the event something happens for you to react to. Now, let's just flip that over. In addition to the PvE tasks themselves, which players in high sec already do quite often, what does the PvE player in null need to do? What is the point of bothering with intel with Local? You are not actively playing the game as far as making any effort to gather intelligence, you can simply observe the chat roster, and if you do see something, you have the option to react to it. Keeping firmly in mind, the player needs to be present in order to look at the Local Chat pilot roster. It is my understanding that the observant players are the ones who do the fearing, so let's keep it simple like that. You could claim this is not playing the game intended for null, due to lack of effort involved. After all, you are apparently doing nothing more than watching your screen, possibly in the event something happens for you to react to. I dunno, sounds like both sides are pretty evenly matched. Most would consider this balanced. Did you want to change this? As with any change to a carefully balanced system, even with seemingly broken aspects like this has, you need to modify both sides of the equation to keep them equal. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.
Derath Ellecon Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal 1213	Posted - 2013.03.13 21:34:00 - [62] - Quote Machiavelli Interface wrote: Thank you for the good replys, they are appreciated. What is the point of being afk and cloaked? Many times for me it has been defensive. Being in a non-covert ops ship with a cloak and I get camped in by a roaming gang. (be it in low null or WH space). It's unsafe to log off with combat probes out. So essentially I'll have to cloak up at a safe and just sit awhile until the hunters decide to move on. I've had to do this in hostile WH space for hours once in order to wait until it was safe to try and escape.
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 650	Posted - 2013.03.13 21:41:00 - [63] - Quote Machiavelli Interface wrote: If I sat in an afk cloak and choose to attack someone. This is an impossibility, if you are afk you can't attack someone, if you are cloaked you cannot attack someone. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Commander Ted Caldari Provisions Caldari State 551	Posted - 2013.03.13 22:35:00 - [64] - Quote Kenshi Hanshin wrote: Stay on topic! Or find something else to do... ___________________________________________ So are you two saying that you are against having POS mounted modules that can do that? Or are you two having nothing better to do besides acting like children? I am against redundant threads. Will everyone please stop posting in these threads. They are like smallpox sores all over this forum. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec.
Machiavelli Interface S-T United Heavy Shipyards 1	Posted - 2013.03.13 23:00:00 - [65] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: Machiavelli Interface wrote: If I sat in an afk cloak and choose to attack someone. This is an impossibility, if you are afk you can't attack someone, if you are cloaked you cannot attack someone. my apology for missing the "semi-afk" that statement implied.
Machiavelli Interface S-T United Heavy Shipyards 1	Posted - 2013.03.13 23:08:00 - [66] - Quote Nikk Narrel : You describe a player who is at the screen watching, so the fix of the fighters would enhance their game. Would make it much more of a positive challenge for any competent cloak pilot. The only people the fix would adversely affect are the ones who do just simply log in and go afk. === as to needless posts, With all I have read, and reviewed, obviously there are players out there less than pleased with the replys and in other forums trolling of the topic. I am very glad to see we got some good feedback and responses. Obviously people want to make EVE better, not nerf it to WoW levels.
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 651	Posted - 2013.03.13 23:13:00 - [67] - Quote Machiavelli Interface wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: Machiavelli Interface wrote: If I sat in an afk cloak and choose to attack someone. This is an impossibility, if you are afk you can't attack someone, if you are cloaked you cannot attack someone. my apology for missing the "semi-afk" that statement implied. Semi-AFK or not it is still an impossibility Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Sura Sadiva Entropic Tactical Crew 357	Posted - 2013.03.14 01:04:00 - [68] - Quote Commander Ted wrote: I am against redundant threads. Will everyone please stop posting in these threads. They are like smallpox sores all over this forum. They should be locked/banned cause are against the forum rules: Quote: 5) Before posting an idea, please check the Commonly Proposed Ideas Thread to see if there's already a topic running for it. Reposts will be locked and routed to the active thread. It's always the same single user spamming the forum with different alts. And this "nerf cloack" ideas iare in the "coomonly proposed" thread since 2007, lol.
Ganthrithor GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 489	Posted - 2013.03.14 06:42:00 - [69] - Quote Kenshi Hanshin wrote: Most of us would probably agree that cloaking ships are a bit OP. Mostly that there is no way in 'hell' to counter them. Why don't you go to 'hell' and post there?
Azrael Dinn The 20th Legion Mildly Sober 65	Posted - 2013.03.14 07:06:00 - [70] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: ..... Cloaked ships have never destroyed anything, or made any isk, or any thing really rolf oh please say your trying troll. If your not, please do not ever never again post anything ever again.
TheGunslinger42 All Web Investigations 1072	Posted - 2013.03.14 08:53:00 - [71] - Quote Azrael Dinn wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: ..... Cloaked ships have never destroyed anything, or made any isk, or any thing really rolf oh please say your trying troll. If your not, please do not ever never again post anything ever again. Um, I'm sorry but you may want to familiarize yourself with basic EVE mechanics before you go calling someone a troll. It is literally impossible to activate modules while cloaked, and therefor impossible to kill someone, or light a cyno, or anything else.
TheSkeptic Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 141	Posted - 2013.03.14 09:30:00 - [72] - Quote Azrael Dinn wrote: please do not ever never again post anything ever again. This is actually a grammatical double negative. He's really telling you to keep posting. ...
Athena Penken Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.03.14 12:04:00 - [73] - Quote Ok so here is the situation...the outcry for anit-cloaking is about as old as miners for invincibility. The fact of the matter is, not EVERYTHING in eve needs a counter measure against it. There is such a thing as too much balance. Players need to feel they have some avenue of a tactical advantage over each other. Lets name some modules that have counter measures shall we? 1. ECM - ECCM, ECM Burst....the list is long for countering 2. Weapons - LOL thats what defensive mods are for. 3. Webs - Afterburners and MWD So, from just 3 so far what have we learned? That when CCP puts in a module(s) that affect any type of direct confrontation with another player, there is most likely a way to counter it or some type of anti-whatever. However, the cloaking device is NOT a direct confrontational module. The entire intent and purpose is to gather intel and move covertly. Let me ask you another way, if local did not exist...could you tell there were a cloaked vessel in system? The whole point of being covert is so no one knows you are there or finds you. Cloaks have massive advantages; however, their drawbacks are just as massive. 1. Standard cloaks reduce a ship's speed dramatically and force them to uncloak to warp. 2. Covert cloaks can only be fit to covert ships that often times are pretty weak tank wise. 3. You CAN decloak someone within 2km 4. In known space they show up in local despite being cloaked. Kinda gives away the whole being covert bit eh? Again...the list of cons is just as massive as pros. In a way, pilots who use cloaks are implementing anti-cloaking techniques on themselves everytime they use them. If you want to decloak someone...I suggest you actively play the game and do it. The only harm an AFK cloaker can do to you is gather intel, you should probably take measures to counterman them by setting up fields of cans around gates and stations to decloak them.
Omnathious Deninard Extrinsic Operations 657	Posted - 2013.03.14 12:14:00 - [74] - Quote Azrael Dinn wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: ..... Cloaked ships have never destroyed anything, or made any isk, or any thing really rolf oh please say your trying troll. If your not, please do not ever never again post anything ever again. Humor me, what has a cloaked ship destroyed? How much Isk has a cloaked ship ever made? Other than being in local what can a cloaked ship do to affect another player? Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting
Nikk Narrel Infinite Improbability Inc Unclaimed. 1465	Posted - 2013.03.14 13:39:00 - [75] - Quote If players insist on misusing a chat channel as a source of intel, it is fair and balanced for a counter to exist that reduces the value of this intel. Since that intel is an absolute, never failing to report the presence of any pilot flying in any ship within the system, it also stands that the counter needs to match this degree of absolute presence. This is why cloaked vessels cannot be located. If you insist on changing one side of an absolute equation, the other must also be equally affected. Regardless of any claims or wishes, and no matter how broken, the current system is balanced. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK.
Teckos Pech The Executives Executive Outcomes 1	Posted - 2013.03.14 23:25:00 - [76] - Quote ShahFluffers wrote: AFK-Cloaking is done in response to Local reporting anyone and everyone who enters system 100% of the time without delay. Since null-sec people dock and log off when a "non-blue" enters system (denying any possibility for a random person or small group to do any damage) people bring in cloaking ships and sit in them for days... to dilute Local's infallibility. I run a two screen set up, as I bet many do, and I've noticed something. The above, in practice, is generally worse than you are describing. When you jump into local, you'll often show up in local chat several seconds before you actually load grid in the new system. This kind of delay between when you show up in local chat and actually load grid gives the locals a tremendous advantage to avoiding a cloaky who might have hostile intentions.
Imigo Montoya Abraxsys Get Off My Lawn 81	Posted - 2013.03.14 23:52:00 - [77] - Quote Maria GoeppertMayer wrote: I know it needs skills to read and understand in RL, but it's amazing how people just see what they want to see... I have no problem with people being cloaked and posing a threat. But let them WORK for it as everyone else has to. Let being the cloaked hunter something that needs effort (in the meaning of being attentive) and I'm happy. It's about balancing the game styles of the players and requiring the same actions from both sides. But I know it's hard to understand that this is not the wish of a carebear. I don't give a damn if you're Chribba or Shadoo, I don't care which box you put yourself in, nor do I care what label you put on that box. If your thinking is flawed, then I will call it so. What you said was "They are present. They could launch an attack anytime. I think that's interacting". You used that to justify the premise that "The problem is that a cloaked ship is an indefinite threat that can be uphold without even playing". Consider this slight modification: "The problem is that a docked ship is an indefinite threat that can be upheld without even playing." The same flawed reasoning applies here. I can dock up my ship and walk away from my computer. If some hostile player comes into my system (whether cloaky or not) I am there posing a threat to them, and I'm not having to work for that either. So when you say "It's about balancing the game styles of the players and requiring the same actions from both sides", you seem to have failed to notice that both sides are in fact already balanced.
Gerrick Palivorn Caldari Provisions Caldari State 354	Posted - 2013.03.15 08:56:00 - [78] - Quote Cloaked up AFK pilots in EVE interact with you on the same level as the homeless guy you pass on the way to work. They only ambush you when you're actually trying to do something else. (Provided they aren't sleeping) MMOs come and go, but Eve remains.-á -Garresh-
Abrazzar Vardaugas Family 1076	Posted - 2013.03.15 09:09:00 - [79] - Quote Omnathious Deninard wrote: Azrael Dinn wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: ..... Cloaked ships have never destroyed anything, or made any isk, or any thing really rolf oh please say your trying troll. If your not, please do not ever never again post anything ever again. Humor me, what has a cloaked ship destroyed? How much Isk has a cloaked ship ever made? Other than being in local what can a cloaked ship do to affect another player? Cloaking is a tactical advantage and tactical advantages kill things. Ever got stabbed in the back? Tactical advantage. Now stop arguing semantics. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008.
TheGunslinger42 All Web Investigations 1080	Posted - 2013.03.15 09:34:00 - [80] - Quote Abrazzar wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: Azrael Dinn wrote: Omnathious Deninard wrote: ..... Cloaked ships have never destroyed anything, or made any isk, or any thing really rolf oh please say your trying troll. If your not, please do not ever never again post anything ever again. Humor me, what has a cloaked ship destroyed? How much Isk has a cloaked ship ever made? Other than being in local what can a cloaked ship do to affect another player? Cloaking is a tactical advantage and tactical advantages kill things. Ever got stabbed in the back? Tactical advantage. Now stop arguing semantics. You're the one playing with semantics if you're resorting to claiming it's a tactical advantage and that they indirectly lead to kills. Cloaked ships are literally incapable of killing anything.
Abrazzar Vardaugas Family 1076	Posted - 2013.03.15 09:55:00 - [81] - Quote TheGunslinger42 wrote: Abrazzar wrote: Cloaking is a tactical advantage and tactical advantages kill things. Ever got stabbed in the back? Tactical advantage. Now stop arguing semantics. You're the one playing with semantics if you're resorting to claiming it's a tactical advantage and that they indirectly lead to kills. Cloaked ships are literally incapable of killing anything. No U! Maybe now I'm on your level of argumentation. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008.
TheGunslinger42 All Web Investigations 1081	Posted - 2013.03.15 10:10:00 - [82] - Quote Abrazzar wrote: TheGunslinger42 wrote: Abrazzar wrote: Cloaking is a tactical advantage and tactical advantages kill things. Ever got stabbed in the back? Tactical advantage. Now stop arguing semantics. You're the one playing with semantics if you're resorting to claiming it's a tactical advantage and that they indirectly lead to kills. Cloaked ships are literally incapable of killing anything. No U! Maybe now I'm on your level of argumentation. No, you were always far below the level of discourse in this thread. I, as well as a few others, were pointing out the hard fact that it is mechanically impossible for cloaked ships to kill things, and you fell back to "b b but they can plan things! And that might lead to kills!".
Abrazzar Vardaugas Family 1076	Posted - 2013.03.15 10:26:00 - [83] - Quote TheGunslinger42 wrote: Abrazzar wrote: TheGunslinger42 wrote: You No U! No, you Made my point. Mining Overhaul Nothing changed since 2008.
Azrael Dinn The 20th Legion Mildly Sober 67	Posted - 2013.03.15 10:34:00 - [84] - Quote Abrazzar wrote: TheGunslinger42 wrote: Abrazzar wrote: TheGunslinger42 wrote: You No U! No, you Made my point. Better just to dismiss TheGunslinger42. he rarely gets it or just wants to ignore it cause it's againts hes way of game play, even if you would make your point by making a clay model, painting it and then showing it to him.
TheGunslinger42 All Web Investigations 1081	Posted - 2013.03.15 11:06:00 - [85] - Quote Have either one of you actually managed to argue against what I, and others, have said - that a cloaked ship, afk or not, simply cannot do anything to you at all? Or are you just going to keep dismissing this point in the hopes that it goes away?
Evanga Way So Mad Space Immigration 53	Posted - 2013.03.15 11:18:00 - [86] - Quote Im so going to reactivate my cloaky alts and sent them to your space soon to afk cloak. Kthnxbye
duckmonster GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 4	Posted - 2013.03.15 11:43:00 - [87] - Quote I do agree cloaking is a bit broken, and I say that as someone who uses cloaks a lot. My two suggestions to fix this are as follows;- 1) If your cloaked you disapear from local. Just because I'm cloaked in system, it shouldn't cause ratters alarm or impede their gameplay. A gang of us cloaked near a gate could be quite disturbing for a miner or ratter. 2) Introduce cloaking interdictors who can use a full T2 cloak. This removes the unfair advantage cloakers have over the interdictors in their gang by allowing interdictors to warp in cloaked too. Naturally this should include allowing the cloaking dictors to use BLOPS bridges since it really is unfair on dictors to have to miss out on juicy hotdrops.
Lloyd Roses Blue-Fire PLEASE NOT VIOLENCE OUR BOATS 38	Posted - 2013.03.15 12:02:00 - [88] - Quote Kenshi Hanshin wrote: I am sure that there will be people (mostly reds to me) that will be unhappy about this. Though I will be happy to start camping you in an "afk" cloaky ship too. If that helps to change your tune. Now moving on to the goal of this topic. Most of us would probably agree that cloaking ships are a bit OP. Mostly that there is no way in 'hell' to counter them. Unless you want to spend all of your free time for months working through the system. If so, I will be sitting here and wait for you to come back and report on how easy it was. As has been mentioned in the forums before, I believe, modules for POS were suggested. Modules that would emit a pulse causing the decloaking of ships in that system (every 5-15 min, I think it was). Personally, I think that is a great idea. Even Goonswarm might like to have those in 'certain' systems. The modules should be not too easy to setup and run. Otherwise it would nullify the use of cloaky ships. Yet it needs to still be in the realm of reasonable. Anyway, I am sure that some of you have criticism and flaming to do. So have at it! I fully support this idea, to finally be through with afk cloaking \o/ Yes, the module can activated once an hour by a starbase technician, no automatic use, and needs to consume 400 Jovian Fuel Blocks. Totally agree with that. Now find someone whining about afk-cloakies willing to do THAT.
Jita Akachi State War Academy Caldari State 4	Posted - 2013.03.15 12:21:00 - [89] - Quote Cloacking is fine but less that afk cloacking. Afk cloacking is zero risk, zero reward : perfect balance! We all know that there so many things that need to be look at, so non existent problem like cloacking will stay untouched for years.. Make one new thread per day will not change that, hopefully. Fly Safe, fly cloacked
Azrael Dinn The 20th Legion Mildly Sober 67	Posted - 2013.03.15 12:28:00 - [90] - Quote TheGunslinger42 wrote: Have either one of you actually managed to argue against what I, and others, have said - that a cloaked ship, afk or not, simply cannot do anything to you at all? Or are you just going to keep dismissing this point in the hopes that it goes away? Well after reading quite much of your posts you just keep pointing out the same over and over again. "Cloaks are not broken there is no problem". And it realy doesn't even matter how many times other people say to you and give suggestions that how it is brokes or tries to explain them selfs how they view the situation you alway say the same thing in the end or begining. "they are not broken, next". So yes I realy would love to see some critisims and constructive feedback also from you cause if a load of people complain about something it can't be that it's balances right. If it was balanced right there would not be any complains (well there is always some) or at least not this much than this topic has.

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